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Islamic Collectivism

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and then

https://www.meforum.org/islamist-watch/60742/islamic-collectivism?utm_source=Middle+East+Forum&utm_campaign=a8e2fdefe5-EMAIL_CAMPAIGN_2020_04_25_09_02&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_086cfd423c-a8e2fdefe5-33869925&goal=0_086cfd423c-a8e2fdefe5-33869925

Interesting article on discussions among Islamic scholars debating the role of Islam within free cultures.  It appears that the speakers tend toward belief that the two cannot perfectly coexist.  I'm interested in thoughts on the piece.

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Kenemet

It's an article by "Islamist Watch." 

I think, as with many things, it's three scholars talking about stuff.  If you had another conference somewhere else, you could probably get a different range of  opinions.

I also noticed that they only analyzed what 3 speakers said... and not what others said.

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third_eye

Was there recommendations for injecting disinfectants to kill germs? 

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Hankenhunter
Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, and then said:

https://www.meforum.org/islamist-watch/60742/islamic-collectivism?utm_source=Middle+East+Forum&utm_campaign=a8e2fdefe5-EMAIL_CAMPAIGN_2020_04_25_09_02&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_086cfd423c-a8e2fdefe5-33869925&goal=0_086cfd423c-a8e2fdefe5-33869925

Interesting article on discussions among Islamic scholars debating the role of Islam within free cultures.  It appears that the speakers tend toward belief that the two cannot perfectly coexist.  I'm interested in thoughts on the piece.

I dunno, seems like a mirror image of western religions vying for dominance to me. Who ever gets the most followers wins. I imagine it's the same all over the world. People as a whole are pretty predictable. My version of the *insert holy book here* is better than your version. I'd imagine that the charisma of the speaker plays an important part. As to the getting along, I guess that depends on local gov't, public and religious temperaments. 

Edited by Hankenhunter
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lightly
Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Rlyeh said:

No Abrahamic religion can truly fit with modern western ideals.

    Not trying to give you a hard time ...but I honestly cannot describe modern western ideals.   All I come up with is eating out, and acquiring . .stuff.  ?..and maybe driving like maniacs !   Would you give some examples please?      ..ok, I'm still trying to think... I guess freedom of the press would be one of " our" ideals?    ..and the right of trial by a jury of our peers? .   .  .  

Edited by lightly
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Rlyeh
2 hours ago, lightly said:

    Not trying to give you a hard time ...but I honestly cannot describe modern western ideals.   All I come up with is eating out, and acquiring . .stuff.  ?..and maybe driving like maniacs !   Would you give some examples please?      ..ok, I'm still trying to think... I guess freedom of the press would be one of " our" ideals?    ..and the right of trial by a jury of our peers? .   .  .  

How about freedom of thought, freedom of belief?

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hetrodoxly
7 hours ago, Rlyeh said:

No Abrahamic religion can truly fit with modern western ideals.

Why just abrahamic religions?

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Rlyeh
19 minutes ago, hetrodoxly said:

Why just abrahamic religions?

I'm sure a lot don't fit with western freedoms, but Islam is of the Abrahamic variety.

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lightly
4 hours ago, Rlyeh said:

How about freedom of thought, freedom of belief?

Yes, that too.    I recall though that Biblically , one witness is not sufficient for a death sentence.. two ,or three, witnesses are required.   I think there is even a constitutional provision about that?   Some, "western ideals" are actually rooted in the bible?

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Kenemet
3 hours ago, lightly said:

Yes, that too.    I recall though that Biblically , one witness is not sufficient for a death sentence.. two ,or three, witnesses are required.   I think there is even a constitutional provision about that?   Some, "western ideals" are actually rooted in the bible?

Actually, since the old Testament is one of their canon documents, this applies to Islam.  They're a bit stricter about following OT than the West is.

Hence the stonings (Abrahamic law) etc.  And the rules about uncleanliness and so forth.

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third_eye

No porky bacon treats ...

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and then
9 hours ago, Rlyeh said:

How about freedom of thought, freedom of belief?

It's a valid question.  Can you cite examples where churches or governments demand adherence to Christianity of Judaism?  How about Islam?  

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and then
4 hours ago, lightly said:

Some, "western ideals" are actually rooted in the bible?

Actually, our entire canon of law is based on Judeo Christian concepts.

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and then
1 hour ago, Kenemet said:

They're a bit stricter about following OT than the West is.

In countries that adhere strictly to Islamic law and tradition, punishment tends to lack any kind of mercy.  Remember that Islam is not simply a religion in the sense that Christianity or Judaism is.  Islam is a code of behavior for the individual across faith, politics and even science to some extent.  

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eight bits
4 hours ago, lightly said:

Yes, that too.    I recall though that Biblically , one witness is not sufficient for a death sentence.. two ,or three, witnesses are required.   I think there is even a constitutional provision about that?   Some, "western ideals" are actually rooted in the bible?

Two witnesses is the biblical part; the US Constitution goes a bit farther and requires two witnesses to the same overt act for a federal treason conviction, which is not necessarily a capital offense. The provision's intent is to make treason at the federal level a difficult charge to sustain. That's not a "western ideal" so much as the recognition from hard-won experience (mostly from other western governments) that treason charges are especially liable to be abused for political advantage.

I'm unsure why the other poster opened up an OP specifically about Islam to cover all Abrahamic religions. It's not like they are interchangeable. I obviously disagree with the contention

1 minute ago, and then said:

Actually, our entire canon of law is based on Judeo Christian concepts.

But I'm confident that @Piney will have something to say about that soon enough.

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and then
1 minute ago, eight bits said:

But I'm confident that @Piney will have something to say about that soon enough.

All opinions are welcome.  When Islamic scholars basically admit that the tenets of their religion often cannot easily coexist with secular laws, I pay attention to that.  Hypocrisy is a part of every religion but when the written text itself declares what amounts to enmity between secular and religious traditions, it's worth taking note, IMO.

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GoldenWolf
20 minutes ago, and then said:

Actually, our entire canon of law is based on Judeo Christian concepts.

Do explain please.

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Piney
24 minutes ago, and then said:

Actually, our entire canon of law is based on Judeo Christian concepts.

Our law canon was based on Germanic (Salic) Law with constant improvement by various leaders and politicians from Edward Longshanks on. The U.S. Government then borrowed many law and democracy concepts from the 6 Nations because we were the first fully participatory Democracy in history and it had nothing to do with Christianity. 

 

@eight bits  I know you how much you love me seeing this......  , 

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eight bits
2 minutes ago, and then said:

When Islamic scholars basically admit that the tenets of their religion often cannot easily coexist with secular laws, I pay attention to that.  Hypocrisy is a part of every religion but when the written text itself declares what amounts to enmity between secular and religious traditions, it's worth taking note, IMO.

None of the Abrahamic texts are "western" or "modern" in outlook to any great extent. But a religion is what living readers do as a result of reading the texts. That "doing" is not necessarily trying to implement the texts literally.

Not to go all 4chan on you, but modern western-oriented Christians and Jews are modern and western-oriented. Moreover, modern westerners-in-spirit are a hefty proportion of living Jews and Christians - and they're a wealthy portion.

I suspect that modern western Muslims are modern and western, too - but they aren't so hefty a proportion of Islam, and some of the wealthier Muslims apparently think they're hip because they allow women to drive cars.

There never was anything in the Koran about automobiles or women not driving them. It ain't the text, it's the readers.

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Rlyeh
13 hours ago, lightly said:

Yes, that too.    I recall though that Biblically , one witness is not sufficient for a death sentence.. two ,or three, witnesses are required.   I think there is even a constitutional provision about that?   Some, "western ideals" are actually rooted in the bible?

I also recall people who worship different gods are put to death.

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Rlyeh
8 hours ago, and then said:

It's a valid question.  Can you cite examples where churches or governments demand adherence to Christianity of Judaism?  How about Islam?  

How about blasphemy laws?

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RoofGardener
On 4/26/2020 at 8:38 AM, Kenemet said:

It's an article by "Islamist Watch." 

I think, as with many things, it's three scholars talking about stuff.  If you had another conference somewhere else, you could probably get a different range of  opinions.

I also noticed that they only analyzed what 3 speakers said... and not what others said.

There WHERE only three sessions ? 

22 hours ago, Rlyeh said:

No Abrahamic religion can truly fit with modern western ideals.

I dunno @Rlyeh. Jews and Christians throughout the world seem to have no problems with modern social ideas, and certainly not with the Enlightenment and the Scientific Method. The only Jewish state in the world - Israel - has abandoned slavery, mistreatment of women, and mistreatment of minority groups such as homosexuals et al .

In regard "Christian" societies; there ARE a few nominally Christian countries in Africa where the latter is still an issue, but the overwhelming supermajority of "Christian" countries are fully "modernised" . Only ONE "Abrahamic" religion is still in the dark ages. 

8 hours ago, eight bits said:

....There never was anything in the Koran about automobiles or women not driving them. It ain't the text, it's the readers....

Strictly speaking, that is - of course - true. However, there are ample examples of women being given a "second class citizen" status in Islamic theocracy and Sharia jurisprudence. These have been extrapolated into the modern setting.

There have been no equivalent prescriptions against women driving cars - or aircraft - in any "Western" society at any stage.  

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Rlyeh
1 hour ago, RoofGardener said:

I dunno @Rlyeh. Jews and Christians throughout the world seem to have no problems with modern social ideas, and certainly not with the Enlightenment and the Scientific Method. The only Jewish state in the world - Israel - has abandoned slavery, mistreatment of women, and mistreatment of minority groups such as homosexuals et al 

I'm talking about their doctrine.  At one stage they weren't that different to Muslims enforcing sharia law.

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XenoFish
3 minutes ago, Rlyeh said:

I'm talking about their doctrine.  At one stage they weren't that different to Muslims enforcing sharia law.

Considering that islam is just a doctored version of judaism. 

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