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Does God expect to be worshipped by humans?


BEAR-CUB

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17 minutes ago, Hawkins said:

First you need to figure out the common path of how angels and humans fall away from God. The path is like this,

Not worshiping God --> pride grows --> ignoring words of God --> offending laws --> have to leave God

 

To intercept or stop the above path from the root is to worship God. Worshiping God is crucial in an eternity for humans and angels to live with God forever.

How do you truly know it is god's 'word'? For that matter if it is the right god. Doesn't the worship of Christian god create its own pride and arrogance?

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On 1/22/2021 at 9:40 AM, XenoFish said:

How do you truly know it is god's 'word'? For that matter if it is the right god. Doesn't the worship of Christian god create its own pride and arrogance?

Hi Xeno

Who cares what they believe if they mind their own business and asking them to clarify or define what they believe in seems to be an act of aggression.

jmccr8

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3 minutes ago, jmccr8 said:

Hi Xeno

Who cares what they believe if they mind their own business and asking them to clarify or define what they believe in seems to be an act of aggression.

jmccr8

FYI, I'm allowed to ask questions. 

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16 minutes ago, jmccr8 said:

Hi Xeno

Okay if you say so

jmccr8

Am I going to have issues with you as well? Should I save myself the trouble and put you on ignore to save myself some time? Because if I choose to ask someone a question, I will.

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1 minute ago, XenoFish said:

Am I going to have issues with you as well? Should I save myself the trouble and put you on ignore to save myself some time? Because if I choose to ask someone a question, I will.

Hi Xeno

Wasn't attacking you so no I don't see that you will have a problem with me but do as you please. Just to make it easy I will not quote you again if that makes you feel better.

jmccr8

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On 11/3/2020 at 1:48 PM, Alchopwn said:

Before they have the power of language, infants have very little ability to consciously remember what they experience, hence the "peekaboo" game's great success with infants.  Their brains are definitely highly active, and working overtime to make sense of the random patterns around them, but that is not the same as "explanations", and more of a desperate chase for signal in amongst the noise of sensation that is assailing them.  Memory only develops to any great degree after the acquisition of language, when the tools of language provide a logical framework on which memory can be meaningfully constructed.

 Children occasionally develop imaginary friends.  Please introduce me to the child who has spontaneously told their parents that they have a friend their parents cannot see called YHVH who is all powerful.  The latter is a delusion among adults.  I also debate the value of the Agency Attribution in Infancy Paper as a means of demonstrating "god" in the minds of children.  That is not the thrust of the paper at all and is pure projection on your part.

Complex societies evolved without belief in all-powerful deity

There are a great many societies that have evolved without having any belief in more than spirits, and then, generally as a way of discussing diseases (which they cannot see).

The Pirahã do not have any concept of a god or gods for example.  Your position is based on anthropological ignorance.

Or they need no religion at all because it is mainly destructive to believe in things that aren't true.

No, you are a narcissist who will never acknowledge your failures and faults.  You even persistently lie about not belonging to a religion when you have admitted to such in the past repeatedly.

 

 

Having written this i realised i had answered  your post some time ago.

I pulled your post up to make a specific comment but didn't get back for so long that i thought i had pulled it up to reply to it.

I will leave it, having written it, as it adds a little to my original post 

 

I wont argue the science with you. It is eminently researchable

Children construct agents of change ie invisible self directed beings which cause things to happen  We know from  history that early humans did the same 

This is the same concept  as a god

While society may shape the particular, belief its the child who originates belief not another human being  

Spirits etc are also "gods" We have been conditioned to see god as the Abrahamic construct but  many thousands of gods have been considered over human history 

Generally gods have never been considered ALL powerful until the Abrahamic god,  just more powerful than humans.

Th piraha DO have imaginary beings (spirits)   whom the y believe are real and dangerous  (that is a debate which has been settled  for a decade at least) The y are quire similar to most such isolated and "primitive "societies. 

Not only anthology but psychology and cognitive sciences have established how humans construct god concepts and, increasingly, how this tendency evovled as a protective feature of human cognition

 I am not a narcissist That is a simple ad hominen designed to reduce my credibility:)   

I have a couple of faults and failures but not many Ive had 70 yeras to get rid of most of them, and a wife whom has insisted that i do:)  

Ive spoken honestly about my past 

I am not religious.

i belong to no church.

I have not attended a church for 30-40 years  

I was raised an atheist secular humanist but encountered  a real and powerful being whom most people think of as god  

I did go to church with my wife for a few years after we married, but declined offers of any office because i didnt  have the belief required.  

I took my wife to church for longer, but went to visit family and friends while she attended 

Neither of us has gone to any church for 20 years at least

Ps human language has two elements  The language of the mind (thought) which is evolving before birth, and spoken languge 

The second requires a long period of observation and imitation to learn, as it requires coordination of tongue lips facial muscles etc   to make a noise and the abilty to put all tha t together to form cohrent speech Ie children are thinking before the y are speaking  

 

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On 11/3/2020 at 12:51 PM, Alchopwn said:

But racism isn't right, and never has been.  An omniscient deity would know that.  You are the confused one.

 

Oh dear, what we have here is a failure of understanding. Racism is just an extension of egotism, simple as that, and if you want egotism and its companion "ideologies" to have been abolished by this putative deity, then be assured you would never have existed. Happy with that proposition ?

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On 11/4/2020 at 10:27 PM, Alchopwn said:

No.  Unless you can produce an academic quality peer reviewed paper which EXPLICITLY says that, it simply isn't true.  Worse still, what you are arguing for here is another version of the God of the Gaps, which is a very flawed argument.  The God of the Gaps argument is that whenever humans are ignorant they will immediately superimpose God.  This means that Ignorance is God and people who worship God are actually worshiping their own ignorance.  That is the worst form of idolatry imaginable imo.  In short, no baby ever said "idk therefore god", because babies can't talk.  That idea needs to be planted in their heads for it to take root.  Most babies will say "idk therefore ask mom" when they are of an age to do so.  Then it is mom who infects them with god.

Many people have schizophrenic episodes, most often brought on my poisons in their environment.  When in India they see Brahma or Krishna, not YHVH or Jesus.  You are not unique, and this is not proof of a god, this is proof that you lack critical function.  Did your deity tell you anything original that could verify that it was genuine?  If not, you are just a bit unhinged, likely through some chemical imbalance in your brain, hopefully temporary.

I agree with these statements to a point.  Yes, societies have spiritual beliefs, but on closer inspection you discover that they are often based on an imperfect but culturally valid series of observations about the natural world that often approximate science, but lack deeper material understanding of the phenomena they seek to explain.  Much spirituality actually comes down to stage magic, often performed by people who don't know they are performing stage magic.  The classic example of this is the weeping madonnas.

Spirits and ghosts are not gods and never have been.

How can you say that and pretend to be sane?  No.  Your position is wrong.  There is nothing positive about thinking make-believe things are real.  At best it is imaginative and harmless, but at worst it is schizophrenic and a terrible mental disorder.  I have seen people in the throws of a schizophrenic episode, unable to determine what in their environment is safe while they talk to, argue and even fight with imaginary entities.  There is nothing positive about this adaptation.

You can have religion or science, not both.  To pretend otherwise is to undermine both and make a fool of oneself.

lol what is true is true.

The evidence it takes to convince you is what might be lacking (for you)  However there are many such papers which have been published, and sometimes discussed in, magazines such as the new scientist 

Thats NOT really the gods of the gaps argument  

Its a fact how human cogntition works and humans DO require answer  for a feeling of security Where knowllege cant provide this certainty we construct beleifs  

The difference is that this explains scientifically through psychology, human cognition, and  anthropology  WHY humans have gods of the gaps  concepts.

it doesn't say the y are real or true  just explains why basically ALL human minds develop a belief in"gods"  and have to override tha t with disbelief based on other knowledge  

Children provide their own cognitive answers to their own questions before the y can undertsnd another human's speech  

You are right that humans perceive gods through cultural and other filters  They construct their inner gods this way and when the y encounter a real one the y interpret  it this way.  We do the same for dogs  ie people see the same dog in many different ways 

Science specially medical science has absolutely  proven the benefits of positive belief in humans.

It is an evolved survival mechanism protecting us from  the pain of self  knowldge and understanding   It improves physical and mental health  and adds up to 10 years to a person'

s life   It doesnt matter what belief form it is, as long as it is positive

Of course its best if the belief is around something which cannot be proven true or false The existence of gods generally fits this category  Heaven particular fits it  Believing the earth is flat or vaccinations are evil  can be proven false  

Indeed mental illness is a terrible thing.  Ive lost loved ones to it, a saved some from  it, and counselled many with it. 

BUT belief in gods, heaven, religion, something greater than the material world   etc is NOT a mental illness, and no one seriously suggests it is.  90% of modern humans have some such belief 

 In general, people with positive beliefs have better health (  Physical and mental) than those with out   (in a similar cohort)

Again the experts believe this is because it is an evolved survival trait in human beings   ie believers lived longer and had more children than non believers, thus creating  a gene pool mostly of believers 

On your last point, you are wrong on so many levels.

Humans cant live with material things alone (or suicide wouldn't be so high in the richest countries ) We do have minimal material needs which must be met such as food, water, shelter and   medical care   We have psychological  /spiritual needs which must be met for us to be happy and to prosper   eg purpose, friendship, belonging,  hope  love and respect etc  

So a balanced human being embraces both science and the material; but also the spiritual and psychological things needed for happiness and prosperity  

Damn id answered this also ,so why was my computer showing it as an unread post i wonder ? :) 

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On 1/25/2021 at 12:49 PM, Mr Walker said:

lol what is true is true.

That is a very naive statement.  In fact it may well be assumed to be deliberately misleading.

On 1/25/2021 at 12:49 PM, Mr Walker said:

The evidence it takes to convince you is what might be lacking (for you)  However there are many such papers which have been published, and sometimes discussed in, magazines such as the new scientist 

I read New Scientist, and I do not agree with how you characterize their efforts.

On 1/25/2021 at 12:49 PM, Mr Walker said:

Thats NOT really the gods of the gaps argument  

It is MOST CERTAINLY a species of a god of the gaps argument.

On 1/25/2021 at 12:49 PM, Mr Walker said:

Its a fact how human cogntition works and humans DO require answer  for a feeling of security Where knowllege cant provide this certainty we construct beleifs  

That is all well and good for spineless cretins who need a security blanket to see them through life.  Personally I prefer to build upon a foundation of facts when possible, and edit as necessary.  An invisible bearded sky daddy who repeatedly contradicts himself cannot provide that for me as it is obviously a ridiculous fairy story.

On 1/25/2021 at 12:49 PM, Mr Walker said:

The difference is that this explains scientifically through psychology, human cognition, and  anthropology  WHY humans have gods of the gaps  concepts.

People have these things because they are intrinsically infantile individuals who will kick and scream and grizzle if someone takes away their security blanket.  They will not take a moment to consider the fact that their security blanket is false security.  THAT is why god of the gaps exists.  It is a stop-gap attempt to hang on to a security blanket that isn't there any longer.

On 1/25/2021 at 12:49 PM, Mr Walker said:

Children provide their own cognitive answers to their own questions before the y can undertsnd another human's speech  

There is no evidence to support this claim.  It is more likely that infants cannot organize their thoughts without language and have no abstract thoughts, only reactions to tangible events.  This is why adults have no memories of their infancy, as language itself forms a major means by which to encode the memories.

On 1/25/2021 at 12:49 PM, Mr Walker said:

You are right that humans perceive gods through cultural and other filters  They construct their inner gods this way and when the y encounter a real one the y interpret  it this way.  We do the same for dogs  ie people see the same dog in many different ways 

The difference being that dogs are tangible entities, but deities are abstract ideas at best.  Also, while the postmodernists make a great deal of how different people's interpretations of various facts are, on closer inspection psych studies have revealed that most people agree about word definitions, and the qualities of objects to a far higher degree than the postmodernists have supposed.  The mere act of observation and thinking doesn't manifest colossal differences, it is deliberate obscurantism which does that.  

So... If you want to talk about a god, define your terms.

On 1/25/2021 at 12:49 PM, Mr Walker said:

Science specially medical science has absolutely  proven the benefits of positive belief in humans.

What would medical science say of security blankets then?

On 1/25/2021 at 12:49 PM, Mr Walker said:

It is an evolved survival mechanism protecting us from  the pain of self  knowldge and understanding   It improves physical and mental health  and adds up to 10 years to a person's life   It doesnt matter what belief form it is, as long as it is positive

That is just the reaction of the anxious to a palliative. It is not the same as god's existence being true, accurate or a correct representation of the facts in any way. 

As to your second point, no, knowledge founded in things that actually exist, facts if you will, is infinitely superior to a false sense of security.  A false sense of security will get you killed.  Consider the 19th century, and the white shirts of the Ghost Dancers or the charms against bullets used by the Boxer rebellion.  If you want protection against bullets, there is no substitute for water, earth, or actual armor.  Prayers won't cut it.

On 1/25/2021 at 12:49 PM, Mr Walker said:

Of course its best if the belief is around something which cannot be proven true or false The existence of gods generally fits this category  Heaven particular fits it  Believing the earth is flat or vaccinations are evil  can be proven false  

Actually it is super-easy to prove that the God of the Bible doesn't exist.  A real deity would know the truth about the physical world, and Genesis amply demonstrates that the God of the Bible doesn't understand such things, which is a good trick for a deity that is supposed to be all-knowing.

On 1/25/2021 at 12:49 PM, Mr Walker said:

Indeed mental illness is a terrible thing.  Ive lost loved ones to it, a saved some from  it, and counselled many with it. 

BUT belief in gods, heaven, religion, something greater than the material world   etc is NOT a mental illness, and no one seriously suggests it is.  90% of modern humans have some such belief 

 Have you noticed how close this particular response of yours is to Solipsism?  You see, a large number of religious people identify with their god far more than they should, and thus they feel aggrieved that other people don't see things the same way they do.  They cannot understand why other people reject their ego-projection of a deity.  That is mental illness.  The root cause of the mental illness is narcissism, and the narcissist is always quite close to solipsism.  They want to reject the world that "hurts" their delusion, and retreat into a state of denial where everything is good and they are wrapped in cotton wool by a protective deity who loves them.  Infantile regression and desire for a parental figure, combined with an overweeningly exaggerated sense of their own value.  By being at one with god they get to be god, and validate their narcissism.  That's pretty mentally ill, when one considers that their deity is a tissue of lies.

On 1/25/2021 at 12:49 PM, Mr Walker said:

On your last point, you are wrong on so many levels.

Humans cant live with material things alone (or suicide wouldn't be so high in the richest countries ) We do have minimal material needs which must be met such as food, water, shelter and   medical care   We have psychological  /spiritual needs which must be met for us to be happy and to prosper   eg purpose, friendship, belonging,  hope  love and respect etc  

So, you are retreating to Maslow's hierarchy of needs?  Has it never occurred to you that if this notion of "spirituality" is basically factually wrong, that there are umpteen substitutes for it?  How does giving money to a man in a frock tangibly improve your prosperity?

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16 hours ago, Alchopwn said:

That is a very naive statement.  In fact it may well be assumed to be deliberately misleading.

I read New Scientist, and I do not agree with how you characterize their efforts.

It is MOST CERTAINLY a species of a god of the gaps argument.

That is all well and good for spineless cretins who need a security blanket to see them through life.  Personally I prefer to build upon a foundation of facts when possible, and edit as necessary.  An invisible bearded sky daddy who repeatedly contradicts himself cannot provide that for me as it is obviously a ridiculous fairy story.

People have these things because they are intrinsically infantile individuals who will kick and scream and grizzle if someone takes away their security blanket.  They will not take a moment to consider the fact that their security blanket is false security.  THAT is why god of the gaps exists.  It is a stop-gap attempt to hang on to a security blanket that isn't there any longer.

There is no evidence to support this claim.  It is more likely that infants cannot organize their thoughts without language and have no abstract thoughts, only reactions to tangible events.  This is why adults have no memories of their infancy, as language itself forms a major means by which to encode the memories.

The difference being that dogs are tangible entities, but deities are abstract ideas at best.  Also, while the postmodernists make a great deal of how different people's interpretations of various facts are, on closer inspection psych studies have revealed that most people agree about word definitions, and the qualities of objects to a far higher degree than the postmodernists have supposed.  The mere act of observation and thinking doesn't manifest colossal differences, it is deliberate obscurantism which does that.  

So... If you want to talk about a god, define your terms.

What would medical science say of security blankets then?

That is just the reaction of the anxious to a palliative. It is not the same as god's existence being true, accurate or a correct representation of the facts in any way. 

As to your second point, no, knowledge founded in things that actually exist, facts if you will, is infinitely superior to a false sense of security.  A false sense of security will get you killed.  Consider the 19th century, and the white shirts of the Ghost Dancers or the charms against bullets used by the Boxer rebellion.  If you want protection against bullets, there is no substitute for water, earth, or actual armor.  Prayers won't cut it.

Actually it is super-easy to prove that the God of the Bible doesn't exist.  A real deity would know the truth about the physical world, and Genesis amply demonstrates that the God of the Bible doesn't understand such things, which is a good trick for a deity that is supposed to be all-knowing.

 Have you noticed how close this particular response of yours is to Solipsism?  You see, a large number of religious people identify with their god far more than they should, and thus they feel aggrieved that other people don't see things the same way they do.  They cannot understand why other people reject their ego-projection of a deity.  That is mental illness.  The root cause of the mental illness is narcissism, and the narcissist is always quite close to solipsism.  They want to reject the world that "hurts" their delusion, and retreat into a state of denial where everything is good and they are wrapped in cotton wool by a protective deity who loves them.  Infantile regression and desire for a parental figure, combined with an overweeningly exaggerated sense of their own value.  By being at one with god they get to be god, and validate their narcissism.  That's pretty mentally ill, when one considers that their deity is a tissue of lies.

So, you are retreating to Maslow's hierarchy of needs?  Has it never occurred to you that if this notion of "spirituality" is basically factually wrong, that there are umpteen substitutes for it?  How does giving money to a man in a frock tangibly improve your prosperity?

So now its naïve to recognise an absolute and simple truth 

What is true is true  

Your disagreement comes from  your bias 

My agreement  with them may come from  my bias, but the  articles are clear, academic, and usually  peer reviewed 

No its not The gods of the gaps is clearly defined ie while we cant see god we can deduce its existence  from the gaps in our knowledge That's not what i was arguing at al.l    

spineless cretins who need a security blanket to see them through life.

e intrinsically infantile individuals who will kick and scream and grizzle if someone takes away their security blanket.

the bolded bits say more about your character, and attitude to other humans,   than that of a believer 

we wouldn't have evolved beliefs as a survival mechanism if the y weren't positive constructive and advantageous to us 

Anyone who needs them and doesn't take advantage of them is a fool or a masochist   IMO 

there is plenty of evidence, from  a variety of disciplines, and across the world, that all human children construct  a belief in agents of change, responsible for all changes in their environment  The y describe these understandings as soon as the y can speak about such things 

 They don't learn those skills from  parents.

it is part of our cognitive toolbox Even taught by robots who never mentioned a god, a human child would evolve its own sense of spirituality.

Eventually it would evolve its own system of organised belief (eg religion) but by tha t time it is being exposed to the belief's around it 

You believe that  gods are not tangible like dogs. A fair belief but incorrect :)   science has proven that, given equality of a physical environment,  humans who hold a positive belief system have many and significant advantages over nonbelievers  This is now so scientifically indisputable tha t I am not going to argue it with you

Try and disprove it with research 

The god of the bible is a social construct from 2-5000 years old

One point of agreement i have with you  is tha t  the god described in the bible is a human construct.

However it may not be imaginary. It might be how people from those times responded to the presence of a real and powerful being   

No it is  not solipsism.

Belief confers an evolutionary advantage on humans.

It doesn't matter if the belief is true or false.

it does things like reduce stress,  anxiety,  cardio vascular   diseases, cancer, adds longevity, reduces depression and suicide rates (all proven results of a positive faith) 

Its like smoking When you tell a person the y shouldn't smoke the y might not like your argument but you are correct  

Prove that their belief is a tissue of lies and I will have a little sympathy for you.  Until then belief in an unknown/ unprovable entity, is a sensible thing if it promotes wellbeing  Choosing NOT to believe is illogical if it hurts you physically or psychologically bringing you pain and grief which could be avoided by choosing belief    Only a masochist would chose pain/suffering over no pain/suffering.  

I am not retreating to that hierarchy. It is an academic argument and I had 3 years training in psychology and 10 years practice as a counsellor  However idont get your last point 

The  existence of the human spirit  is indisputable 

its observed not just in psychology but in cognitive sciences, anthropology and other disciplines.

 It is slef evident in human art literature music etc

Signs of it are evidenced back almost 100000 years in human history  

And what has money given to a man in a frock got to do with ANY of this argument?

That is materialist  not spiritual .

The one thing you CANNOT do is trade the physical for the spiritual ie you  cant BUY a spiritual thing  like love, forgiveness, duty, honour or belief   

 

 

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27 minutes ago, jmccr8 said:

 This is now so scientifically indisputable tha t I am not going to argue it with you

Try and disprove it with research 

:lol:

jmccr8

Well go on then,  give it a  go,  if you think I am wrong :) 

I am not going to keep providing evidences for something  which is now as well known, and scientifically accepted,  as the earth being a sphere.

Some people just keep saying I am wrong but offer no evidences.

It is their belief, which they require for their own comfort/peace of mind,  and that belief would be challenged if they did their own research, and found the truth.  

Here is the full claim 

science has proven that, given equality of a physical environment,  humans who hold a positive belief system have many and significant advantages over nonbelievers  This is now so scientifically indisputable tha t I am not going to argue it with you

Do your best to prove it to be incorrect 

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6 minutes ago, Mr Walker said:

Do your best to prove it to be incorrect 

Hi Walker

I didn't not quote you which means I do not need a response from you.

As you know I will not take the liberty to discuss things with you.:tu:

jmccr8

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2 hours ago, jmccr8 said:

Hi Walker

I didn't not quote you which means I do not need a response from you.

As you know I will not take the liberty to discuss things with you.:tu:

jmccr8

Fair enough, but you  DID  directly quote  a part of my post.

You laughed at  an important scientific understanding. 

if you wish to walk away from  that now, that is your choice. 

However it is the sort of tactic many people use.

ie deny or scoff, then refuse to support their pov with facts  

such as this.

 In a nutshell, being religious is strongly associated with better overall mental health and well-being. The devoutly religious have fewer symptoms of anxiety and depression in addition to having a better ability to cope with stressors. A 2005 study on adults in their 60s and 70s in the U.S. found that religious beliefs buffered against depression associated with poor physical health. And for those of you thinking, “well sure, people who are religious tend to enjoy the benefits of social support by attending weekly services at various houses of worship,” the buffering effects of religion was present even after controlling for social support. In a 2013 study, researchers found that patients who were being treated for depression and self-harm responded better to treatment if they believed in God. Of course, these results do not show causality.

https://coupleandfamilyclinic.com/blog/how-do-religious-beliefs-affect-our-health-and-well-being/#:~:text=In a nutshell%2C being religious,ability to cope with stressors.

or this

 And it is commonly accepted around that world that religion and spirituality are among the most important of cultural factors – giving structure and meaning to behaviors, value systems and experiences.

Thus, there is ample reason to believe that faith in a higher power is associated with health, and in a positive way. For example, researchers at the Mayo Clinic concluded, “Most studies have shown that religious involvement and spirituality are associated with better health outcomes, including greater longevity, coping skills, and health-related quality of life (even during terminal illness) and less anxiety, depression, and suicide. Several studies have shown that addressing the spiritual needs of the patient may enhance recovery from illness.”

https://www.forbes.com/sites/nicolefisher/2019/03/29/science-says-religion-is-good-for-your-health/?sh=b3f23743a12c

or this

Religious/spiritual beliefs and practices are commonly used by both medical and psychiatric patients to cope with illness and other stressful life changes. A large volume of research shows that people who are more R/S have better mental health and adapt more quickly to health problems compared to those who are less R/S. These possible benefits to mental health and well-being have physiological consequences that impact physical health, affect the risk of disease, and influence response to treatment. In this paper I have reviewed and summarized hundreds of quantitative original data-based research reports examining relationships between R/S and health. These reports have been published in peer-reviewed journals in medicine, nursing, social work, rehabilitation, social sciences, counseling, psychology, psychiatry, public health, demography, economics, and religion. The majority of studies report significant relationships between R/S and better health. For details on these and many other studies in this area, and for suggestions on future research that is needed, I again refer the reader to the Handbook of Religion and Health [600].

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3671693/

or even this (the whole article is worth a read) 

History suggests that a measure of both balance and stability in meaning in life is crucial to personal wellbeing and social cohesion. A lack of meaning beyond the personal increases people’s vulnerability. When too much meaning is attached to things that are fragile, transient or ephemeral, disappointment and failure become more likely. But the imbalance can also be in the other direction, with the search for meaning and belonging ending in the total subjugation of the self — in, for example, religious fundamentalism or nationalistic fanaticism.

Many sources of psychological wellbeing are also related to physical health, including longevity. For example, socially isolated people are two to five times more likely to die in a given year than those with strong ties to family, friends and community.10 Wellbeing itself appears to have a central role in these associations, improving health through direct physiological effects on the immune and neuroendocrine systems and by influencing diet, exercise, smoking, drinking and other lifestyle behaviours.2

Religion serves humanity best when it embodies and expresses the spiritual as purely as possible, with only a limited influence of institutional and political agendas. The Jewish prayer book, Gates of prayer, captures what religion, as an expression of the spiritual, offers:

Religion is not merely a belief in an ultimate reality or in an ultimate ideal . . . Religion is a momentous possibility . . . that what is highest in spirit is also deepest in nature . . . a conserver and increaser of values . . . that the things that matter most are not at the mercy of the things that matter least.

Modern Western culture, with its emphasis on personal consumption and self-gratification, betrays this ideal — at considerable cost to health and wellbeing. The restoration of a stronger spiritual dimension to life will be important in turning around this situation.

https://www.mja.com.au/journal/2007/186/10/culture-spirituality-religion-and-health-looking-big-picture

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3 hours ago, jmccr8 said:

Any reason to flap your gums eh

jmccr8

yep But in this case a critically important reason 

people who deny this reality are like those people who denied that smoking was bad for you 

Read JUST the bits I quoted, and you can see the clinical benefits of a positive belief, on psychological and physiological well being and health  I can go on for thousands of studies.

quote

 

Effects of Religious Practice on Health

Religious practice substantially contributes to physical and mental health. Regular religious practice lessens depression, promotes self-esteem, and builds familial and marital happiness. Religious worship also increases longevity, improves an individual's chances of recovering from illness, and lessens the incidence of many diseases. The health savings value of religious practice in 2012 was around $115.5 billion, according to Rodney Stark, Pulitzer Prize nominee and Baylor University researcher.1)

1. Mental Health

Good mental health is highly correlated to religious participation.2) An increase in religious practice was associated with having greater hope and a greater sense of purpose in life.3) A systemic literature review of 99 studies found “some positive association…between religious involvement and greater happiness, life satisfaction, morale, positive affect, or some other measure of well-being” 81 percent of the time. This analysis included a wide diversity of ages, races, and denominations.4)

1.1 Happiness and Well-Being

Religious affiliation and regular church attendance were among the most common reasons people gave to explain their own happiness.5) Happiness was greater and psychological health was better among those who attended religious services regularly.6) According to the Pew Research Center, highly religious7) Americans are more likely to be “Very happy with the way things are going in life” and to be “Very satisfied with family life” than their less religious counterparts.8) A majority of the literature in an extensive review concluded that religious commitment and practice lead to increased self-esteem and that religious practice correlated with increased social support.9) Older Americans who went to church frequently were more likely to have a closer relationship with God, more likely to provide social support for family and friends, and more likely to have a deeper sense of meaning in life.10)

2.1 Longevity

Men and women who attended church weekly had the lowest mortality rates.36) Religious practice delivered longevity benefits, most significantly by encouraging a support network among family and friends that helped to maintain a pattern of regimented care, reducing one’s mortality risk from infectious diseases and diabetes.37) Greater longevity was consistently and significantly correlated with higher levels of religious practice and involvement, regardless of the sex, race, education, or health history of those studied.38) A review of medical, public health, and social science literature that empirically addressed the link between religion and mortality found that religious practice decreased mortality rates.39) Those who were religiously involved live an average of seven years longer than those who were not. This gap is as great as that between non-smokers and those who smoked a pack of cigarettes a day.40) Among women, attending a religious service more than once a week was linked to a 33 percent lower mortality risk compared to those who never attended religious services.41) Among African–Americans, the benefit of religion to longevity was particularly large. The average life span of religious blacks was 14 years longer than that of their nonreligious peers.42) Among African Americans (aged 18 to 54), those who attended church more than weekly had an even lower mortality risk than those who attended just once a week or not at all.43)

2.2 Diseases

An earlier review of 250 epidemiological health research studies found a reduced risk of colitis, different types of cancer, and untimely death among people with higher levels of religious commitment.44) Conversely, at any age, those who did not attend religious services had higher risks of dying from cirrhosis of the liver, emphysema, arteriosclerosis, and other cardiovascular diseases and were more likely to commit suicide, according to an even earlier review by faculty of the John Hopkins University School of Public Health.45) The most significant pathway by which religious practice delivered these longevity benefits was a lifestyle that reduced the risk of mortality from infectious diseases and diabetes by encouraging a support network among family and friends that helped to maintain a pattern of regimented care.46)

http://marripedia.org/effects_of_religious_practice_on_health#:~:text=Regular religious practice lessens depression,the incidence of many diseases.

 

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1 hour ago, Mr Walker said:

people who deny this reality are like those people who denied that smoking was bad for you 

Says the guy who was 100 pounds overweight because he "loves food" and wasn't able to exercise due to surgery.

I'm sure you are/were aware of the terrible consequences of being that overweight. Didn't stop you though did it?

I'm glad you lost weight and are healthier now, but it's getting pretty tiresome to read your hypocritical stories about what people ought to do because it's better for them.

You certainly didn't. 

 

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2 hours ago, onlookerofmayhem said:

Says the guy who was 100 pounds overweight because he "loves food" and wasn't able to exercise due to surgery.

I'm sure you are/were aware of the terrible consequences of being that overweight. Didn't stop you though did it?

I'm glad you lost weight and are healthier now, but it's getting pretty tiresome to read your hypocritical stories about what people ought to do because it's better for them.

You certainly didn't. 

 

sorry? relevance? I don't deny that being overweight is bad for you  

But  you exaggerate.

100 lbs would be  about  7 stone. I've only once  been that "over weight " (unless you consider normal weight to be anorexic) and that was just before my heart operation.  

And some things are beyond our control Eg you CANT exercise once your heart valves are leaking badly. You can hardly walk  

   Once that was fixed I lost   35 kilos  or 5.5 stone in a couple of months  

Still that is all irrelevant 

We can know things are wrong, and not be perfect ourselves,  yet still educate and inform others. You can call it hypocrisy. I call it honesty  There was no need for me to be honest about myself other than my own need to be    

  My imperfections don't disqualify me from  giving advice, nor mean that the advice is not factually correct 

You dont have to be perfect to try and help others.  

So, Would you  be happy to take my advice on  the benefits of faith, IF i was a svelte and fit human specimen, who did a triathlon every day?   Nah!  I don't think so 

Plus I think that is all  a bit of an excuse to deny the facts. 

 

 

  

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11 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

So now its naïve to recognise an absolute and simple truth 

What is true is true  

Show me an unequivocal truth and I will prove you are a liar.  You get an E for this.

11 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

Your disagreement comes from  your bias 

You claim bias but offer no proof of bias.  You get an E for this.

11 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

My agreement  with them may come from  my bias, but the  articles are clear, academic, and usually  peer reviewed 

Yes, you cherry pick certain obsolete i.e. out of date and superseded papers and built your opinions around them, not bothering to stay current.  If I were grading you on your literature review, you would get a "D".  You have done a bit of work, but not nearly enough to get anything close to a good grade, because it seems you haven't read contemporary papers and have apparently avoided anything that might be critical of your underlying hypothesis.  That is a form of intellectual cowardice that is typical of an undergraduate student who will not progress beyond a low graded bachelor degree.  Stop resting on your laurels, they aren't supposed to go there.

11 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

No its not The gods of the gaps is clearly defined ie while we cant see god we can deduce its existence  from the gaps in our knowledge That's not what i was arguing at al.l    

 That is a very poor description of the god of the gaps argument.  In fact it is entirely backwards.  You get an F for this part.  Do some reading.

11 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

 

spineless cretins who need a security blanket to see them through life.

e intrinsically infantile individuals who will kick and scream and grizzle if someone takes away their security blanket.

the bolded bits say more about your character, and attitude to other humans,   than that of a believer 

So... Take a step into the real world for a moment.  How would you characterize someone who is so riddled with superstition that they must neurotically talk to an invisible ghost parent to get permission to live their life?  That they need to have their delusion of this fake ghost parent in their life to feel safe?  That they live in fear of offending this invisible ghost parent?  Now remember that this person lives in a world where there is ample evidence that this belief in their invisible ghost parent is false, but they belong to a cult that takes their money and reinforces their delusion of an invisible ghost parent on a weekly basis.  Some of the people in that cult are callous psychopathic manipulators who like controlling the credulous and taking their money, while others are genuinely brainwashed, fearful, damaged people who have literally been made afraid of their own shadow by their own ignorance. 

You can open the door of an institutionalized animal's cage, but that doesn't mean it will run free.  The cage has become their home, their place of security... their security blanket (by analogy), and will become more distressed if you take it away from them, than force them to dwell in it.  Humans have made them spineless cretins.  So too with the religious folk.

11 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

we wouldn't have evolved beliefs as a survival mechanism if the y weren't positive constructive and advantageous to us 

I am well aware of the paper and the findings in question.  What you probably aren't aware of is that this has since been linked to magical thinking, infantile wish fulfilment fantasies, and most importantly to infantile coping strategies for the absent parent in other studies.  The child learns to self-calm in the absence of a parental figure.  Some children cry in terror if their parents are not around, but as they grow older, because they have a healthy attachment style, they are secure in the knowledge that their parents still exist and they are not abandoned.  Overly needy children who are fundamentally insecure often fail to develop a healthy attachment style and seek to monopolize their parents' attention. Does any of this sound familiar to you, given the context?

11 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

Anyone who needs them and doesn't take advantage of them is a fool or a masochist   IMO 

 Or they are not insecure enough to need to pay a man in a frock for the attention of a fake parent.

11 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

there is plenty of evidence, from  a variety of disciplines, and across the world, that all human children construct  a belief in agents of change, responsible for all changes in their environment  The y describe these understandings as soon as the y can speak about such things.  They don't learn those skills from  parents.

That's a fascinating claim.  Please present me with a link to papers that support this, as I am genuinely interested in where you are getting this idea.  I have never encountered any papers that support anything of the kind.

11 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

Even taught by robots who never mentioned a god, a human child would evolve its own sense of spirituality.

Please provide a link to evidence for this claim too.

11 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

Try and disprove it with research 

On the contrary I agree, children misattribute connections in the world all the time. For example, children are naturally racist based on the findings of the University of Toronto:  

https://media.utoronto.ca/media-releases/infants-show-racial-bias-toward-members-of-own-race-and-against-those-of-other-races/

The difference being that children can also grow out of believing in childish things, but religious people apparently don't.  For example, when I was a child I read about Hopi Rain rituals and saw an example of their rain calling drum, so I made a drum for myself copying the design, and carefully depicting the image on the drum's surface as closely as I could.  I then took it outside and beat the drum and danced, and lo and behold it rained.  Being a child I took this at face value.  In fact, every time I took the drum out and played with it for the next 7 times it rained.  On the ninth time however it didn't rain, beat on the drum as I did.  And not on the next time after that either or the time after that.  So what did I do?  I figured that perhaps the drum had no energy left; that it needed fresh batteries.  So as I didn't know how to give the drum fresh batteries I made a new drum, and the rain came again when I beat it.  It worked the next two times after that, but then stopped.  Then I made a new drum but that didn't work on the first go, so I began to wonder if the drum didn't work, was it the drum or something I was doing that didn't work.  This is called magical thinking and many children engage in it.  Superficially it seems to work, and statistically my drums worked more often than they didn't, but then I lived in Massachusetts where it rains quite a lot.  In fact I had far better results from the spirits of the Hopi than I ever did from YHVH.  Now why do you suppose that was?

11 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

The god of the bible is a social construct from 2-5000 years old

Then there is no reason to accept or believe in it, is there?

11 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

However it may not be imaginary. It might be how people from those times responded to the presence of a real and powerful being   

Don't feed other peoples' Tulpa, it's a parasite that is grooming you.  Ever wonder why you must ingest the "host" at mass, yet "host" is also what a parasite infected person is called?  I joke of course, the parasitism is entirely tangible and attributable, but reinforcing your own delusions is a path to mental illness if ever there was one.

12 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

No it is  not solipsism.

I didn't say faith was Solipsism, I said faith had uncomfortable psychological parallels to Solipsism.  Poor reading comprehension, you get an E.

12 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

 

It doesn't matter if the belief is true or false.

So... If Neo-Stalinists started attributing miracle deaths of their political enemies to their prayers and offerings before an icon of Lavrentiy Beria, you'd be fine with it?  After all, it is only results that matter, right?  I mean, what is the difference between believing your teddy bear is magical, finding a bone in your belongings will make you die, or that a popular sports figure is Jesus?  It doesn't matter if it is wrong, just that it works for them, right?  You can literally justify the Holocaust with this style of thinking. You get an F.

12 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

it does things like reduce stress,  anxiety,  cardio vascular   diseases, cancer, adds longevity, reduces depression and suicide rates (all proven results of a positive faith) 

This is called the placebo effect.  As this was the crux of your argument and you failed to acknowledge this crucial connection or provide any sources to it you get an F.

12 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

I am not retreating to that hierarchy. It is an academic argument and I had 3 years training in psychology and 10 years practice as a counsellor  However idont get your last point 

So you didn't qualify for a PhD in psych?  Why am I not surprised?  I certainly wouldn't have been able to pass you, so I bet you went to some boondocks Community College too.  As to you not getting the point, what else is new?  This little comment above is a blatant appeal to authority and I outrank you, academically speaking.

12 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

The  existence of the human spirit  is indisputable 

ORLY.  Please supply a link to a peer reviewed study that confirms this amazing finding.

12 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

 

its observed not just in psychology but in cognitive sciences, anthropology and other disciplines. It is slef evident in human art literature music etcSigns of it are evidenced back almost 100000 years in human history  

"Slef" evident huh?  A good thing you weren't penning the Declaration of Independence huh?  It is certainly an odd way to spell sloth.  The buzzards aren't even circling this argument of yours, they picked its carcass clean last century.

12 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

And what has money given to a man in a frock got to do with ANY of this argument?  That is materialist  not spiritual .

And I am a materialist, not a spiritualist.  What I am primarily concerned about is credulous idiots having their insecurities preyed upon by the money hungry hypocrites like yourself (you confessed to being a church deacon previously) selling fake salvation.  All pastoral care comes with the shearing of the sheep after all.

12 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

The one thing you CANNOT do is trade the physical for the spiritual ie you  cant BUY a spiritual thing  like love, forgiveness, duty, honour or belief   

On the contrary, Simony has long been a practice in Christianity.  It isn't as if you can't buy a doctorate in divinity online.  My Jesuit buddies used to get me a new one for my birthday now and again as a joke.

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7 hours ago, Alchopwn said:

Show me an unequivocal truth and I will prove you are a liar.  You get an E for this.

You claim bias but offer no proof of bias.  You get an E for this.

Yes, you cherry pick certain obsolete i.e. out of date and superseded papers and built your opinions around them, not bothering to stay current.  If I were grading you on your literature review, you would get a "D".  You have done a bit of work, but not nearly enough to get anything close to a good grade, because it seems you haven't read contemporary papers and have apparently avoided anything that might be critical of your underlying hypothesis.  That is a form of intellectual cowardice that is typical of an undergraduate student who will not progress beyond a low graded bachelor degree.  Stop resting on your laurels, they aren't supposed to go there.

 That is a very poor description of the god of the gaps argument.  In fact it is entirely backwards.  You get an F for this part.  Do some reading.

So... Take a step into the real world for a moment.  How would you characterize someone who is so riddled with superstition that they must neurotically talk to an invisible ghost parent to get permission to live their life?  That they need to have their delusion of this fake ghost parent in their life to feel safe?  That they live in fear of offending this invisible ghost parent?  Now remember that this person lives in a world where there is ample evidence that this belief in their invisible ghost parent is false, but they belong to a cult that takes their money and reinforces their delusion of an invisible ghost parent on a weekly basis.  Some of the people in that cult are callous psychopathic manipulators who like controlling the credulous and taking their money, while others are genuinely brainwashed, fearful, damaged people who have literally been made afraid of their own shadow by their own ignorance. 

You can open the door of an institutionalized animal's cage, but that doesn't mean it will run free.  The cage has become their home, their place of security... their security blanket (by analogy), and will become more distressed if you take it away from them, than force them to dwell in it.  Humans have made them spineless cretins.  So too with the religious folk.

I am well aware of the paper and the findings in question.  What you probably aren't aware of is that this has since been linked to magical thinking, infantile wish fulfilment fantasies, and most importantly to infantile coping strategies for the absent parent in other studies.  The child learns to self-calm in the absence of a parental figure.  Some children cry in terror if their parents are not around, but as they grow older, because they have a healthy attachment style, they are secure in the knowledge that their parents still exist and they are not abandoned.  Overly needy children who are fundamentally insecure often fail to develop a healthy attachment style and seek to monopolize their parents' attention. Does any of this sound familiar to you, given the context?

 Or they are not insecure enough to need to pay a man in a frock for the attention of a fake parent.

That's a fascinating claim.  Please present me with a link to papers that support this, as I am genuinely interested in where you are getting this idea.  I have never encountered any papers that support anything of the kind.

Please provide a link to evidence for this claim too.

On the contrary I agree, children misattribute connections in the world all the time. For example, children are naturally racist based on the findings of the University of Toronto:  

https://media.utoronto.ca/media-releases/infants-show-racial-bias-toward-members-of-own-race-and-against-those-of-other-races/

The difference being that children can also grow out of believing in childish things, but religious people apparently don't.  For example, when I was a child I read about Hopi Rain rituals and saw an example of their rain calling drum, so I made a drum for myself copying the design, and carefully depicting the image on the drum's surface as closely as I could.  I then took it outside and beat the drum and danced, and lo and behold it rained.  Being a child I took this at face value.  In fact, every time I took the drum out and played with it for the next 7 times it rained.  On the ninth time however it didn't rain, beat on the drum as I did.  And not on the next time after that either or the time after that.  So what did I do?  I figured that perhaps the drum had no energy left; that it needed fresh batteries.  So as I didn't know how to give the drum fresh batteries I made a new drum, and the rain came again when I beat it.  It worked the next two times after that, but then stopped.  Then I made a new drum but that didn't work on the first go, so I began to wonder if the drum didn't work, was it the drum or something I was doing that didn't work.  This is called magical thinking and many children engage in it.  Superficially it seems to work, and statistically my drums worked more often than they didn't, but then I lived in Massachusetts where it rains quite a lot.  In fact I had far better results from the spirits of the Hopi than I ever did from YHVH.  Now why do you suppose that was?

Then there is no reason to accept or believe in it, is there?

Don't feed other peoples' Tulpa, it's a parasite that is grooming you.  Ever wonder why you must ingest the "host" at mass, yet "host" is also what a parasite infected person is called?  I joke of course, the parasitism is entirely tangible and attributable, but reinforcing your own delusions is a path to mental illness if ever there was one.

I didn't say faith was Solipsism, I said faith had uncomfortable psychological parallels to Solipsism.  Poor reading comprehension, you get an E.

So... If Neo-Stalinists started attributing miracle deaths of their political enemies to their prayers and offerings before an icon of Lavrentiy Beria, you'd be fine with it?  After all, it is only results that matter, right?  I mean, what is the difference between believing your teddy bear is magical, finding a bone in your belongings will make you die, or that a popular sports figure is Jesus?  It doesn't matter if it is wrong, just that it works for them, right?  You can literally justify the Holocaust with this style of thinking. You get an F.

This is called the placebo effect.  As this was the crux of your argument and you failed to acknowledge this crucial connection or provide any sources to it you get an F.

So you didn't qualify for a PhD in psych?  Why am I not surprised?  I certainly wouldn't have been able to pass you, so I bet you went to some boondocks Community College too.  As to you not getting the point, what else is new?  This little comment above is a blatant appeal to authority and I outrank you, academically speaking.

ORLY.  Please supply a link to a peer reviewed study that confirms this amazing finding.

"Slef" evident huh?  A good thing you weren't penning the Declaration of Independence huh?  It is certainly an odd way to spell sloth.  The buzzards aren't even circling this argument of yours, they picked its carcass clean last century.

And I am a materialist, not a spiritualist.  What I am primarily concerned about is credulous idiots having their insecurities preyed upon by the money hungry hypocrites like yourself (you confessed to being a church deacon previously) selling fake salvation.  All pastoral care comes with the shearing of the sheep after all.

On the contrary, Simony has long been a practice in Christianity.  It isn't as if you can't buy a doctorate in divinity online.  My Jesuit buddies used to get me a new one for my birthday now and again as a joke.

Most of this is the longest ad hominem response I have ever encountered, which tends me to the belief that your entire world view is emotionally based rather than scientific.

I wont respond to those comments 

 however as you see fit to grade my own, please  remind me of your own qualifications and competencies to do so.  

Ive always explained my own qualifications and  experiences.

One does not need to have a Phd in Psychology to be knowledgeable and experienced in the field  only to claim expert status However I don't claim that as my    main area of expertise.

As a teacher I have a wider range and experience in human cognition sociology anthropology Plus I read a lot 

If I believe you, then you also read some of the same papers but interpret them differently, again due to a cognitive bias against belief/faith, and particularly, religion There are, however, many thousands of academic peer reviewed studies proving the beneficial effect of a positive beleif system 

Placebo ? maybe it quite  often is (but the results are the important thing )

A result of behaviours driven by religion/faith?( like not smoking) Maybe it quite often is, but hose results would not exist without those behaviours, which are driven by a belief  

 

Could be attained by other nonreligious/spiritual mechanisms like sport ? In some cases, and to a more limited extent, this is true but fiath is easier cheaper and more effective  

however in general it goes to the link between human psychology and human physiology 

Almost every aspect of the material in a human body is influenced by our mind, even our perception of pain 

Thus, make your mind happy, content; without stress, anxiety, worry, fear, etc and your body responds with a better cardio vascular health, less depression, lower suicide rats,  faster healing of trauma, and   higher recovery and more remissions  from  things like cancer 

And so it doesn't matter what your belief is, as long as it is positive (because negative beliefs CAN have harmful effects) but again, studies show these in less than10% of cases 

 

If  you  are claiming academic qualifications in psychology, I am concerned.

Not for your academic skills, but for your human ones.

  How any human being could gain a qualification in human psychology, without understanding the nature of human beings, is beyond me (yeah give me an F for that too :)  So if you stick to academic research and debate you cant do any harm, but "heaven help"  anyone  you try to help.

If you talked to patients as you do here you would do great harm.

Ive known many qualified psychologists, and my nephew is married to one. I've never encountered one who demonstrates such a strong cognitive bias, against such a fundamental  part of the human psyche as religion and faith, which makes me doubt HOW you could have gained such a qualification, unless it was entirely theoretical and did not involve counselling others, or you hid your bias from those teaching and grading you.

And  no I dont think I "confessed"  to being a church deacon. I did say i refused any official  positions in my wife's church because I  didnt think it was right to pretend to believe their belief in creationism,  I did "meet and greet"  people coming  though the door sometimes back in the 70s .

I was probably chosen, in part, because of my good looks,   good language  skills  and warm and charming personality, :) 

However I wont argue that point.  If  ever held any official  position in a church, I cant remember doing so, or ever being formally given a position   and it would have been  around  45 years ago

ps ALL humans use magical thinking. We never entirely grow out of it.

it is a cognitive trait or abilty like the abilty to think logically and rationally The question is why did we evolve it?  The answer is that it confers a survival advantage  and meets a critical need of human self  aware consciousness to supply answers to the questions our  minds  generate. As a side effect it is related to human imagination and creativity as a positive characteristic 

As adults we learn knowldge and other skills but retain  a predisposition to magical thinking.

  Don't fight it; learn to use it for your benefit   

one point of agreement 

religion and faith is free.

Anyone who pays for it via compulsion is an idiot However, like any organisation, a religion has expenses If a member chooses to contribute to those expenses they get free things in return, like marriage and funerals, child care   and my favourite, pot luck lunches  

I've never encountered a church where paying money was a condition for  attendance or membership and, in my early twenties iI went to and studied with most  christian denominations trying to get an understanding of them.  

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One interesting aside regarding tulpas.

As an infant and young child I thought tulpas ,  such as imaginary friends and animals, were a product of my mind, and had physical powers.

I thought that I needed to have compete understanding and control  of my mind and my thoughts to eliminate these, or direct them for positive purposes,  and prevent them from doing harm  (This also applied to dreaming, where I understood the subconscious   nature of dream constructs, and took control of my dreams from  an early age 

As an adolescent and adult, I became aware that many tulpas are a result of human sensory perception of  things beyond our "normal" material environment. and are not just generated by our own minds. 

The y are/can be  material, but not in the common sense we are used to.  I guess a poltergeist would be the best known (and least subtle)  of these  

Thus, in some cases, gods spirits etc are tulpas  entirely constructed by our minds.

In others they are a recognition of  an external being or entity, with some limited communication possible 

Once the cosmic consciousness made contact with me,  my understanding of all this became clearer.   Human consciousness is capable of significant if somewhat murky  contact and communication  with many things beyond those commonly known or understood,   including but not limited to, the minds of other human beings. 

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On 2/23/2021 at 1:17 AM, Alchopwn said:

That is a very naive statement.  In fact it may well be assumed to be deliberately misleading.

I read New Scientist, and I do not agree with how you characterize their efforts.

It is MOST CERTAINLY a species of a god of the gaps argument.

That is all well and good for spineless cretins who need a security blanket to see them through life.  Personally I prefer to build upon a foundation of facts when possible, and edit as necessary.  An invisible bearded sky daddy who repeatedly contradicts himself cannot provide that for me as it is obviously a ridiculous fairy story.

People have these things because they are intrinsically infantile individuals who will kick and scream and grizzle if someone takes away their security blanket.  They will not take a moment to consider the fact that their security blanket is false security.  THAT is why god of the gaps exists.  It is a stop-gap attempt to hang on to a security blanket that isn't there any longer.

There is no evidence to support this claim.  It is more likely that infants cannot organize their thoughts without language and have no abstract thoughts, only reactions to tangible events.  This is why adults have no memories of their infancy, as language itself forms a major means by which to encode the memories.

The difference being that dogs are tangible entities, but deities are abstract ideas at best.  Also, while the postmodernists make a great deal of how different people's interpretations of various facts are, on closer inspection psych studies have revealed that most people agree about word definitions, and the qualities of objects to a far higher degree than the postmodernists have supposed.  The mere act of observation and thinking doesn't manifest colossal differences, it is deliberate obscurantism which does that.  

So... If you want to talk about a god, define your terms.

What would medical science say of security blankets then?

That is just the reaction of the anxious to a palliative. It is not the same as god's existence being true, accurate or a correct representation of the facts in any way. 

As to your second point, no, knowledge founded in things that actually exist, facts if you will, is infinitely superior to a false sense of security.  A false sense of security will get you killed.  Consider the 19th century, and the white shirts of the Ghost Dancers or the charms against bullets used by the Boxer rebellion.  If you want protection against bullets, there is no substitute for water, earth, or actual armor.  Prayers won't cut it.

Actually it is super-easy to prove that the God of the Bible doesn't exist.  A real deity would know the truth about the physical world, and Genesis amply demonstrates that the God of the Bible doesn't understand such things, which is a good trick for a deity that is supposed to be all-knowing.

 Have you noticed how close this particular response of yours is to Solipsism?  You see, a large number of religious people identify with their god far more than they should, and thus they feel aggrieved that other people don't see things the same way they do.  They cannot understand why other people reject their ego-projection of a deity.  That is mental illness.  The root cause of the mental illness is narcissism, and the narcissist is always quite close to solipsism.  They want to reject the world that "hurts" their delusion, and retreat into a state of denial where everything is good and they are wrapped in cotton wool by a protective deity who loves them.  Infantile regression and desire for a parental figure, combined with an overweeningly exaggerated sense of their own value.  By being at one with god they get to be god, and validate their narcissism.  That's pretty mentally ill, when one considers that their deity is a tissue of lies.

So, you are retreating to Maslow's hierarchy of needs?  Has it never occurred to you that if this notion of "spirituality" is basically factually wrong, that there are umpteen substitutes for it?  How does giving money to a man in a frock tangibly improve your prosperity?

My two cents is lack of attention as a child during crucial stages in ego development (independence and autonomy) mirroring and idealization issues and common for the 50s lots of parents demonstrated  empathetic failures in parenting during that time. 
 A few of the childhood stories I read support the above for me. But just my two cents, nothing more. 

Edited by Sherapy
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On 2/25/2021 at 2:18 PM, Sherapy said:

My two cents is lack of attention as a child during crucial stages in ego development (independence and autonomy) mirroring and idealization issues and common for the 50s lots of parents demonstrated  empathetic failures in parenting during that time. 
 A few of the childhood stories I read support the above for me. But just my two cents, nothing more. 

Ah, speaks the person with the very poor parent, about  the one with the world's best :)   

it is not me who was damaged as a child by poor parenting.    

I've told you before. Criticise me all you like, but you never knew my parents, yet you judge them  by your own parent(s) standards.

All of their children loved and respected them all their lives, and so did their grandkids, and community members.

All our family stayed  physically and emotionally close to our parents until the y died, without ever any estrangement, anger,  disagreements  etc.     

  

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