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BEAR-CUB

Does God expect to be worshipped by humans?

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Guyver

I agree with the people who say, if there be a God, he doesn’t need worship.  But, I will take it one step further, if there be a God, he needs nothing.

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Guyver
3 hours ago, Dejarma said:

the idea of god/s is a human-construct

Everything humans think is a human construct slick.  You say nothing.

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simplybill
8 hours ago, FART-EXTERMINATOR said:

Today I would like to question the idea of worshiping god, hopefully it will result in a debate by people of different or no faith.

From a Born-Again Christian’s point of view:

I don’t worship God because He demands worship, I worship Him because I’m in awe of Him. In some ways it’s similar to the awe I had of Mike Tyson’s boxing abilities when he was in his prime, or the late Dr. Oliver Sacks’ amazing empathy toward his patients. But I’ve never worshipped Mr. Tyson or Dr. Sacks. I’m grateful to them for sharing their talents with the world, but they have/had the same faults that all of us humans have.

After having my life intercepted by Jesus, worship has become a natural, voluntary outgrowth of the awe I have for God and his kindness.

Welcome to UM.

 

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openozy
9 hours ago, Guyver said:

Yeah...in my mind the word “fart” ceases to be truly funny after what....10 or 11 years of age?  But whatever, fart is funny to you.

The word loses it's humour but the action is timeless.

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third_eye
3 hours ago, Guyver said:

I agree with the people who say, if there be a God, he doesn’t need worship.  But, I will take it one step further, if there be a God, he needs nothing.

In effect, technically speaking and basically saying, this god that you are referring to can't be Her. 

~

8 minutes ago, openozy said:

The word loses it's humour but the action is timeless.

Timing and context matters... 

:D

~

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Dejarma
5 hours ago, Guyver said:

Everything humans think is a human construct slick.  You say nothing.

Everything humans think is not being discussed here, is it cocky bollox 

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Manwon Lender
11 hours ago, Guyver said:

Ok.

Yeah...in my mind the word “fart” ceases to be truly funny after what....10 or 11 years of age?  But whatever, fart is funny to you.

In my mind fart whatever as part of your username is crass and actually insulting to the forum.  And I’ve noticed that you bonded FART too....like look at me.....I’m a big fart hahaha!  
 

IDK.  It just seems to me that if you like the word fart, and you want to be funny, you could have been so much more slick about it.  You know?  You could have hinted at fart in a classy way, or actually even slipped it into the middle of your name, like... IDK, just riffing here.....for some ideas.

You could have gone with CheeseFart, or Beanfart.  I mean, you could have been Fartface or Fartboy, Fartman, Fartgirl, heck you could have been SirFartsalot.  Or just, I LIKe fart.  Fart like me, Fartfan, Stinkyfart, Forfartsake, Fartnight.  Farfromfartin, you could have been BoyfartGas.  But whatever, you did what you did.  I would change it, but that’s just me.

Good luck FART Exterminator.

For someone who doesn't think farts are funny it sounds like your deeply into the subject in fact I bet your a Zorf. 

Peace

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Cookie Monster
On 5/6/2020 at 8:15 PM, BEAR-CUB said:

Hello. Today I would like to question the idea of worshiping god, hopefully it will result in a debate by people of different or no faith. My understanding of ‘god’ is that ‘god’ is a perfect being, who looks at every subject from every conceivable angle before passing judgment, it is never guilty of emotionally charged knee-jerk reactions. An entity that has provided all life-forms with tools needed to survive on the physical plane. The above are just 2 examples of a ‘perfect’ being (god). On the other hand I have asked myself “What is a imperfect being?”; after debating this with myself, I arrived at the following conclusions: a imperfect being is someone who is a narcissist, arrogant, and egotistical; yet these 3 descriptions are typical to be found in people who demand to be worshipped; therefore if god demands to be worshipped as mainstream religious leaders would have us believe, then god cannot be a perfect being, therefore cannot be god, as narcissism, arrogance, and ego are flaws, as religions preach. Therefore I believe that ‘worshiping god is a human-construct, not god’s instructions to humans. Considering all of the above points,  I have arrived at my own conclusion that ‘God doesn’t  demand or expect to be worshipped’. I was raised by a mother who is a follower of a Indian spiritual path, not a religion; according to instructions to followers, we are not expected to worship god; instead we engage in transcendental meditation for the purpose of establishing a spiritual connection with god. I have set the ball in motion, now it’s on your side of the court, therefore upto you to argue your case. 

I`m a Christian but due to limited mysticism options I read up on Kabbalah, Gnosticism, and Sufism. The core of each is basically the same. I will explain this using my own words and they start with nothingness.

If we spend some time asking ourselves what is nothingness then after while we would hopefully all reach the conclusion that its the absence of everything. Things can only exist if they are made from something. As nothingness is the absence of everything it cannot be made from anything and therefore can never exist. Nothingness is therefore impossible. It has never existed and never will. Going further then this means at the very minimum one thing must always exist, and this is the starting place of Monism.

If we spend some more time thinking about it then we would realise something can only exist if it exists somewhere, if it exists at a point in time, and if its made from something. Therefore the one thing needs the existence of space, time, and matter, to support its own existence. The one thing causes space, time, and matter, through interdependent origination. Thinking about it further we can reason that continued existence creates a flow of time in one direction. That is if a present moment in time existents that automatically means a before and after that point in time existences. And if the one thing possesses a location then that must be relative to all other locations where it isn't present too.

Spending more time thinking about it we would realise the relative space, time and flow of time, and matter all need to support their own existence too through interdependent origination. This causes matter to propagate across space throughout the past tied up nicely with the Big Bang, across the present, and across the future tied up to what is presumably the Big Crunch.

The above is where the belief in a cosmic spark or seed, and a fractal reality, come from. In mysticism there is something above the one thing. It us an upper potential from which all that exists comes into existence from. The upper potential is non-duality and dualities come forth from it into existence. This means when something is pulled into existence from the upper potential its polar opposite is also created.

So if we take the one thing then its polar opposite is also created. We have a duality (a plus and a minus) pulled into being from the upper potential. This is framed as a giver and a receiver, a creator and a creature, a God and man, and various others. In order to reunify into the upper potential then God needs man, as man needs God. The division that results from the duality needs gluing back together and this the purpose of mystical practices.

Worshipping is such a practice, but its misunderstood. It doesn`t mean praying. It means showing gratitude towards the creator by indulging in all the pleasures he has created for you. This is actually a pleasure seekers universe. One where God created you the receiver with a nice big ego so that you would be a hedonist. He did this because he wants you to receive and enjoy all the pleasures it sends your way.

Your society might tell you that enjoying pleasure, egotism, and hedonism are all wrong. But God, not the society you live in, is the moral authority in this universe. By not playing the role God has designed and created you for you cut yourself off from him. God wants you to be what he designed you to be, not the idealistic garbage your society tries to push onto you. You are too seek out and enjoy all pleasure in life to give back to God the satisfaction of its needs.

Plus and Minus are not enemies, they go together to form a union. You have to form that union with God by allowing yourself to accept into your life and enjoy all the pleasures it sends you. By doing so you reverse the rolls and become the creator while making God the receiver.

The pleasures you enjoy then get created by you in your life. But one word of caution, never ever do anything you dont like. If you dont enjoy it refuse to do it.

Edited by Cookie Monster
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Alchopwn
On 5/7/2020 at 8:42 AM, Piney said:

I'm Piney, Iila was my former "War Brother" and adopted my beliefs. 

And here I thought that chainsaw armed rabbits were nihilists?  What's this about beliefs now?  I must have misread the whole situation...again... SMH. This has been a bad week.  My excuse is that my brains are addled by social isolation, and I'm sticking to it.

Edited by Alchopwn
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BEAR-CUB
3 hours ago, Cookie Monster said:

I`m a Christian but due to limited mysticism options I read up on Kabbalah, Gnosticism, and Sufism. The core of each is basically the same. I will explain this using my own words and they start with nothingness.

If we spend some time asking ourselves what is nothingness then after while we would hopefully all reach the conclusion that its the absence of everything. Things can only exist if they are made from something. As nothingness is the absence of everything it cannot be made from anything and therefore can never exist. Nothingness is therefore impossible. It has never existed and never will. Going further then this means at the very minimum one thing must always exist, and this is the starting place of Monism.

If we spend some more time thinking about it then we would realise something can only exist if it exists somewhere, if it exists at a point in time, and if its made from something. Therefore the one thing needs the existence of space, time, and matter, to support its own existence. The one thing causes space, time, and matter, through interdependent origination. Thinking about it further we can reason that continued existence creates a flow of time in one direction. That is if a present moment in time existents that automatically means a before and after that point in time existences. And if the one thing possesses a location then that must be relative to all other locations where it isn't present too.

Spending more time thinking about it we would realise the relative space, time and flow of time, and matter all need to support their own existence too through interdependent origination. This causes matter to propagate across space throughout the past tied up nicely with the Big Bang, across the present, and across the future tied up to what is presumably the Big Crunch.

The above is where the belief in a cosmic spark or seed, and a fractal reality, come from. In mysticism there is something above the one thing. It us an upper potential from which all that exists comes into existence from. The upper potential is non-duality and dualities come forth from it into existence. This means when something is pulled into existence from the upper potential its polar opposite is also created.

So if we take the one thing then its polar opposite is also created. We have a duality (a plus and a minus) pulled into being from the upper potential. This is framed as a giver and a receiver, a creator and a creature, a God and man, and various others. In order to reunify into the upper potential then God needs man, as man needs God. The division that results from the duality needs gluing back together and this the purpose of mystical practices.

Worshipping is such a practice, but its misunderstood. It doesn`t mean praying. It means showing gratitude towards the creator by indulging in all the pleasures he has created for you. This is actually a pleasure seekers universe. One where God created you the receiver with a nice big ego so that you would be a hedonist. He did this because he wants you to receive and enjoy all the pleasures it sends your way.

Your society might tell you that enjoying pleasure, egotism, and hedonism are all wrong. But God, not the society you live in, is the moral authority in this universe. By not playing the role God has designed and created you for you cut yourself off from him. God wants you to be what he designed you to be, not the idealistic garbage your society tries to push onto you. You are too seek out and enjoy all pleasure in life to give back to God the satisfaction of its needs.

Plus and Minus are not enemies, they go together to form a union. You have to form that union with God by allowing yourself to accept into your life and enjoy all the pleasures it sends you. By doing so you reverse the rolls and become the creator while making God the receiver.

The pleasures you enjoy then get created by you in your life. But one word of caution, never ever do anything you dont like. If you dont enjoy it refuse to do it.

CookieMonster I really really liked your comment, for the most part I cannot disagree with you. You also appear to be very knowledgeable on spiritualism and Quantum-Physics, you are an intelligent person, it’s rare for me to meet intelligent religious people; but you are able to argue your case very well, I’m pleased to have met you. By the way I joined this forum 7 days ago, when I chose a childish username, I soon changed my username to ‘Bear-Cub’. 

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Piney
3 hours ago, Alchopwn said:

And here I thought that chainsaw armed rabbits were nihilists?  What's this about beliefs now?  I must have misread the whole situation...again... SMH. This has been a bad week.  My excuse is that my brains are addled by social isolation, and I'm sticking to it.

I'm a Taoist who hates all structured religions. 

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Cookie Monster
25 minutes ago, BEAR-CUB said:

CookieMonster I really really liked your comment, for the most part I cannot disagree with you. You also appear to be very knowledgeable on spiritualism and Quantum-Physics, you are an intelligent person, it’s rare for me to meet intelligent religious people; but you are able to argue your case very well, I’m pleased to have met you. By the way I joined this forum 7 days ago, when I chose a childish username, I soon changed my username to ‘Bear-Cub’. 

With the one thing creating the universe through interdependent origination we have resulted from that. Its the process of matter supporting its own existence backwards in time, across the present, and forwards in time. And that matter through the process of evolution has resulted in us.

Interdependent origination is also called dependent origination or non-locality (in physics). If you are interested in it then Buddhism teaches it https://www.buddhistinquiry.org/article/dependent-origination/

With ourselves we are thinking, feeling, perceiving, entities. We dont know what pre-existed from interdependent origination before we arose, but we have the potential so shape and mould our own realities going forward. If you think back to when you were a child at some point you would have gained the mental concept of intelligence.

From that point forward you saw less intelligent people, people with similar levels of intelligence to you, and people who were more intelligent. The question is did intelligence actually exist before you became aware of that concept? We assume it did because to suggest otherwise is crazy. But we have no actual proof because to perceive something you have to have the mental concept of it to begin with.

In practice we dont know if the interdependent origination necessary for the one thing to exist also brought into existence the concept of intelligence before you arose and experienced it. But neither do we know that it didnt. As human beings we have the power to experiment with the mental concepts we allow to exist and take root in our minds. Fortunately this means we can experiment using our minds.

By altering the thoughts, feelings, perceptions, believes, concepts, and any other forms of thinking we experience and allow to take root in our minds, we can deduce which shape our reality and which dont. The ones that dont pre-existed before us, the ones that do we have power over.

But until someone takes the plunge and starts experimenting with their minds they dont figure out all is not as it seems. We ourselves create large parts of our reality and can alter them by adjusting the contents of our minds.

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BEAR-CUB

Hello CookieMonster. Another good posting from you. I too have an interest in Cosmology and Quantum-Physics, my interest in these topics developed from watching BBC documentaries. Upon discovering Quantum-Physics I immediately sensed that if anything it will be Quantum-Physics that will prove the existence of God; the topic of Quantum-Physics is so much more mind-boggling and bizarre than anything the Sci-Fi genre has ever come up with. Even though I don’t subscribe to any religion, nevertheless I believe in the existence of a God. However my understanding of what ‘God’ is is contrary to what the Bible states, and what clergy preach. I believe that ‘God’ is an eternal energy that possesses consciousness, and this God energy permeates throughout all life-forms, in other words a fragment of this God energy exists within all life-forms from humans, animals, trees, plants, and bacteriam. In various spiritual paths fragments of this God energy that has been implemented within all life-forms is called a ‘soul’ which sheds it’s old and worn physical body to reincarnate. After numerous lifetimes of reincarnation all splintered fragments of these God energies will eventually merge with the God energy to become ONE. 

Even though I believe in ‘God’, I too believe in the ‘Big-Bang’ theory. Another fascinating concept I encountered whilst watching BBC documentaries is known as ‘Eternal-Return’, which proposes that In the beginning there was just this minute particle containing IMMENSE energy (which I interpret as God), this minute energy was bursting with such IMMENSE energy that this God particle exploded, this explosion I believe to have been the ‘Big-Bang’, which set in motion all that has happened since, and so our Universe is still in a ‘expansion’ state, much like a balloon inflating; once this ‘balloon’ has reached it’s maximum expansion, this ‘balloon’ (the Universe) will annihilate, leaving just the God particle; only for this God particle to explode again and repeat the expansion, annihilation, and big-bang all over again; so this is the Eternal-Return theory. In the Bible it states “Nothing is new under the sun’; therefore everything that has happened before will continue to repeat. 

 

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hetrodoxly
1 hour ago, BEAR-CUB said:

when I chose a childish username, I soon changed my username to ‘Bear-Cub’. 

Hello farty, we'll never forget, we have long memories.

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Coil
On 5/6/2020 at 8:15 PM, BEAR-CUB said:

 Therefore I believe that ‘worshiping god is a human-construct, not god’s instructions to humans. Considering all of the above points,  I have arrived at my own conclusion that ‘God doesn’t  demand or expect to be worshipped’.


There are ways where you need to worship God that involve the emotions of a person, prayer, a mantra and the image of God, and there are meditative ones where it is different.Both paths are right, just your mind has chosen the second and the first is considered unworthy and the human mind is one of the components of the ego and absolutizes what it considers more correct.

 

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BEAR-CUB
8 hours ago, Coil said:

There are ways where you need to worship God that involve the emotions of a person, prayer, a mantra and the image of God, and there are meditative ones where it is different.Both paths are right, just your mind has chosen the second and the first is considered unworthy and the human mind is one of the components of the ego and absolutizes what it considers more correct.

Hello Coil, thank you for your contribution to this topic. You mentioned that there are different ways of worshipping god ie meditation or prayer; I would just like to point out that transcendental meditation isn’t about worshipping god, as no praise is given to god during this practice. Transcendental meditation is about establishing a spiritual connection with god. Whereas singing hymns and Christian praying is about praising and thanking god. If anyone wants to worship god then that’s good, but I doubt that god ‘expects’ to be worshipped, that’s my point. 

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Desertrat56
2 hours ago, Coil said:


There are ways where you need to worship God that involve the emotions of a person, prayer, a mantra and the image of God, and there are meditative ones where it is different.Both paths are right, just your mind has chosen the second and the first is considered unworthy and the human mind is one of the components of the ego and absolutizes what it considers more correct.

 

The first offers frustration as there is no such thing as "the image of God", that can only be imagined and everyone will imagine something akin to himself.  The second offers a mental training that keeps people balanced and more able to function in a human body on planet earth which has nothing to do with worship, unless you are attempting what you describe as your first choice.

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Coil
1 hour ago, BEAR-CUB said:

but I doubt that god ‘expects’ to be worshipped, that’s my point. 


Arjuna inquired: Which is considered to be more perfect: those who are properly engaged in Your devotional service, or those who worship the impersonal Brahman, the unmanifested?

The Blessed Lord said: He whose mind is fixed on My personal form, always engaged in worshiping Me with great and transcendental faith, is considered by Me to be most perfect.

But those who fully worship the unmanifested, that which lies beyond the perception of the senses, the all-pervading, inconceivable, fixed, and immovable-the impersonal conception of the Absolute Truth-by controlling the various senses and being equally disposed to everyone, such persons, engaged in the welfare of all, at last achieve Me.

Bhagavad Gita, Chapter 12: Devotional Service.

https://asitis.com/12

1 hour ago, Desertrat56 said:

The first offers frustration as there is no such thing as "the image of God"

Every impersonal state is a derivative of the revealed or hidden Person, which is behind this impersonal state or is revealed in it. And each Person is connected and can express himself in a certain state of impersonal being. This is possible due to the fact that Personality and Impersonality are only different states of self-consciousness of Absolute Being.

The impersonal Divine, Nirguna Brahman, and the personified Divine, Saguna Brahman, are ... equal and coexisting sides of the Eternal.

 

 

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and then
On 5/6/2020 at 7:08 PM, onlookerofmayhem said:

Respect, love, adoration and devotion are earned.

Can you think of anyone or anything that would deserve worship MORE than a Creator that was responsible for the existence of all things?  I can't.  Without that Creator, nothing would exist.  The question seems to be not whether the Creator is worthy of worship but if it is to be believed at all, and we each have a choice in that regard.  

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GoldenWolf
1 hour ago, and then said:

The question seems to be not whether the Creator is worthy of worship but if it is to be believed at all, and we each have a choice in that regard.  

And why does the world get eviler while mankind gets more religious.

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freetoroam
On 5/6/2020 at 8:15 PM, BEAR-CUB said:

Therefore I believe that ‘worshiping god is a human-construct, not god’s instructions to humans.

As I do not believe in a god, imo, not only is the idea of worshipping a god a human construct, so is the whole god thing.

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onlookerofmayhem
5 hours ago, and then said:

Can you think of anyone or anything that would deserve worship MORE than a Creator that was responsible for the existence of all things?

Personally I wouldn't even worship a being if I knew it was the creator of everything. Hurrah for it. As impressive as it would be to encounter such a being, worshipping would not be on my agenda.

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Desertrat56
14 hours ago, GoldenWolf said:

And why does the world get eviler while mankind gets more religious.

Actually, the world has always been as evil as it was, we just have technology that lets us know every sneeze everyone has.  And as for more religious, no, less religious.  It might seem like people are more religious but it is again technolgy allowing people to pretend things that aren't true, like on facebook, everyone is happy, trying to sell you something, or has some cause they want energy for.  The catholic church is having a hard time finding people who want to be priests and the mega churches have to sell hard to stay in business.

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BEAR-CUB
14 hours ago, GoldenWolf said:

And why does the world get eviler while mankind gets more religious.

Hello GoldenWolf. Thank you for your contribution to the topic. To answer your question “Why does the world Get eviler while mankind gets more religious?”. It is a established fact that since the 1960’s belief in religion has been on the decline, and this trend is continuing, therefore fewer people are religious than ever before; that’s the first of your questions answered. The next is that since neo-liberalism in western politics of encouraging unregulated free-market-Capitalism, this has had the effect of encouraging greed and other selfish attitudes at the expense of those at the bottom of the social strata. Inequality has led to an increase in crimes of greed where the downtrodden are willing to sell drugs to addicts, and murder. Therefore it’s not religion that has escalated evil, it is greed from  unethical capitalism that has increased evil. I’m not necessarily saying ‘destroy capitalism’; but I believe mankind needs to and has an obligation to practice ETHICAL CAPITALISM. 

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freetoroam
11 hours ago, onlookerofmayhem said:

Personally I wouldn't even worship a being if I knew it was the creator of everything. Hurrah for it. As impressive as it would be to encounter such a being, worshipping would not be on my agenda.

As to the question of the thread, would it expect to be worshipped? 

Humans have choosen to worship something, as of today, there is still no evidence the thing they worship actually exists.

Many today worship a god because of their upbringing, passed down through the generations and each child brought up to believe in a god. 

If there truly were a god, there would not be so many people questioning it and questioning what they have been taught or told by their forefathers and parents.

I question why people still believe when after all these years, there is no evidence of a god,  but we have a better understanding of our Earth  and the evolution of man.. 

We know there was no Adam and Eve, it surprises me that today people still believe in that. 

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