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BEAR-CUB

Does God expect to be worshipped by humans?

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Stubbly_Dooright
On 5/7/2020 at 12:38 AM, simplybill said:
On 5/6/2020 at 3:15 PM, FART-EXTERMINATOR said:

Today I would like to question the idea of worshiping god, hopefully it will result in a debate by people of different or no faith.

From a Born-Again Christian’s point of view:

I don’t worship God because He demands worship, I worship Him because I’m in awe of Him. In some ways it’s similar to the awe I had of Mike Tyson’s boxing abilities when he was in his prime, or the late Dr. Oliver Sacks’ amazing empathy toward his patients. But I’ve never worshipped Mr. Tyson or Dr. Sacks. I’m grateful to them for sharing their talents with the world, but they have/had the same faults that all of us humans have.

After having my life intercepted by Jesus, worship has become a natural, voluntary outgrowth of the awe I have for God and his kindness.

Welcome to UM.

I was going to wait, until I read all of the thread, but I like what you wrote, that I put in bold. I feel, I have the feeling with my own belief. And, I don’t think aspects of my belief feels it needs to be worshipped. I think, its just there. And, I feel, it gives for just wanting to give, hence I feel in awe of it. So, that is why I responded to what you wrote there in your post. :yes:  

To respond to the OP, I think this makes for some thought provoking reflection. I think, a good point to make as to what is a perfect god/entity/ person, is that they also don’t want all the attention that someone wonderful would get. And yes, the arrogance and the need for attention and worship does not make for a good individual, does it? 

I reminded of watching something some time ago, and then I think researching it later one, that those who were chosen for leadership, that individual not wanting it in the first place, tend to make the better leader. I think, dealing with wanting to try to be a good understanding leader in the first place, and the ego and such is not part of them to distort things. 

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Alchopwn
On 6/8/2020 at 5:52 PM, Mr Walker said:

 A god neither expects/wants nor needs to be be worshipped  (a little respect and attention is appreciated )

But why?  A truly cosmic entity has literally no need to give a damn about humans.  There is more theological truth in Lovecraft than the Bible, philosophically speaking.  Prove me wrong.

On 6/8/2020 at 5:52 PM, Mr Walker said:

Indeed  even the label and meaning of "god"  is a human construct.

Agreed. Most people can't even properly define what a god is, save that it is an object of worship, and worship is intrinsically a form of fetishism.

On 6/8/2020 at 5:52 PM, Mr Walker said:

It is humans who have  a need (for many different  reasons) to worship a god .

Incorrect.  It is a product of a broken personality to worship a god.  It is a species of magical thinking that is forgivable in the ignorant, but shamefully childish amongst adults in the modern world.

On 6/8/2020 at 5:52 PM, Mr Walker said:

Gods do have need of human beings at times, and so a relationship with a god can be symbiotic.  

Perhaps a better description is that the relationship of the priest class to the laity is one of parasitism, given that there is no proof of deities being real.

On 6/8/2020 at 5:52 PM, Mr Walker said:

A god is more of a father figure, or that of an older brother,  (or in some cultures, a mother or older sister, aunty etc) than some omnipotent, omniscient being.

When you review the differences between comic book superheroes and deities, you will get a better perspective.

On 6/8/2020 at 5:52 PM, Mr Walker said:

Gods may SEEM omnipotent or omniscient  to a human being,  but they are not.  Just powerful and knowledgeable .

 In fact, as humans invent deities, they are ego projections.  Where the worshipper is weak, the deity is strong.  Where the worshipper is ignorant the deity is knowing, etc etc.  Thus the deity becomes an idealized form of the worshipper, and a form of neurotic attachment as a result.

On 6/8/2020 at 5:52 PM, Mr Walker said:

Indeed, as you point out, the correct relationship between god and human is one of physical and mental connection, which is entirely  individual, and cannot be established by doctrine, creed or theology, but only through the connection itself.  

There is neither physical nor mental connection between deity and worshipper.  The deity is the very apotheosis of the worshipper's ignorance, and symbolic of the worshipper's sense of personal deficiency.

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XenoFish
2 hours ago, Alchopwn said:

But why?  A truly cosmic entity has literally no need to give a damn about humans.  There is more theological truth in Lovecraft than the Bible, philosophically speaking.  Prove me wrong.

Lovecrafts cosmic pessimism is represented in the elder gods, they don't care at all about us. Even the "creator" god is a blind idiot who dreams reality. 

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Alchopwn
21 hours ago, XenoFish said:

Lovecrafts cosmic pessimism is represented in the elder gods, they don't care at all about us. Even the "creator" god is a blind idiot who dreams reality. 

I agree and trust that this comment was included to help out those readers unfamiliar with Lovecraft's work, given that I don't think it "proves me wrong", unless there is a nested point I failed to understand. :yes:

Edited by Alchopwn
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Mr Walker
On 6/13/2020 at 8:05 PM, Alchopwn said:

But why?  A truly cosmic entity has literally no need to give a damn about humans.  There is more theological truth in Lovecraft than the Bible, philosophically speaking.  Prove me wrong.

Agreed. Most people can't even properly define what a god is, save that it is an object of worship, and worship is intrinsically a form of fetishism.

Incorrect.  It is a product of a broken personality to worship a god.  It is a species of magical thinking that is forgivable in the ignorant, but shamefully childish amongst adults in the modern world.

Perhaps a better description is that the relationship of the priest class to the laity is one of parasitism, given that there is no proof of deities being real.

When you review the differences between comic book superheroes and deities, you will get a better perspective.

 In fact, as humans invent deities, they are ego projections.  Where the worshipper is weak, the deity is strong.  Where the worshipper is ignorant the deity is knowing, etc etc.  Thus the deity becomes an idealized form of the worshipper, and a form of neurotic attachment as a result.

There is neither physical nor mental connection between deity and worshipper.  The deity is the very apotheosis of the worshipper's ignorance, and symbolic of the worshipper's sense of personal deficiency.

why should humans give a damn about dolphins dogs or other primates.? 

Actually it is a basic evolved human need to believe and have faith  Its a survival trait which has evolved in us over many millennia

The reasons we construct particular gods and thus religions goes to the nature of our cognitive self  awareness  /human psychology, and begins in infancy  with differentiation of agents/non agents in a child's mind.

Any alien being who helps humans, sometimes gains something from the exchange (just as between two humans ) the "god" has more to offer, but a human can do a lot in their life to do that being's will ie help others, help animals, improve the environment etc 

Comic book heroes have many of the attributes of historical gods. However the y also have human traits, just as the ancient gods had.  That is part of the world of comic book heroes. 

You assume all gods are human constructs.

I think  you are actually right, in part, when you say we construct gods to compensate for our own failings and weaknesses.  We construct gods for many many different reasons.

BUT real gods exist, and interact with human beings 

On your last point, you are wrong.

it is a reasonable argument from  ignorance, but reality makes it wrong.

"Gods" /powerful and protective alien entities,  connect to, interact with, protect, empower, educate,  and test us, all the time.

Maybe not you,  but certainly millions of humans. 

"gods " exist as humans do and can have the same connection to a human as a human has to another human being.  ie physical, emotional, intellectual etc. 

Edited by Mr Walker

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GlitterRose

If there is some sort of higher being or force that set all of this in motion, I don't think it would have a desire for worship.

It just doesn't seem like the type of thing a higher being would be mulling over. It's seems kind of childish and ego-driven.

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Sherapy
6 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

why should humans give a damn about dolphins dogs or other primates.? 

Actually it is a basic evolved human need to believe and have faith  Its a survival trait which has evolved in us over many millennia

The reasons we construct particular gods and thus religions goes to the nature of our cognitive self  awareness  /human psychology, and begins in infancy  with differentiation of agents/non agents in a child's mind.

Any alien being who helps humans, sometimes gains something from the exchange (just as between two humans ) the "god" has more to offer, but a human can do a lot in their life to do that being's will ie help others, help animals, improve the environment etc 

Comic book heroes have many of the attributes of historical gods. However the y also have human traits, just as the ancient gods had.  That is part of the world of comic book heroes. 

You assume all gods are human constructs.

I think  you are actually right, in part, when you say we construct gods to compensate for our own failings and weaknesses.  We construct gods for many many different reasons.

BUT real gods exist, and interact with human beings 

On your last point, you are wrong.

it is a reasonable argument from  ignorance, but reality makes it wrong.

"Gods" /powerful and protective alien entities,  connect to, interact with, protect, empower, educate,  and test us, all the time.

Maybe not you,  but certainly millions of humans. 

"gods " exist as humans do and can have the same connection to a human as a human has to another human being.  ie physical, emotional, intellectual etc. 

Basically your need for the alien god construct is to have a connection physically, emotionally, and intellectually, the lack is in you and the god idea fills this void in you. 
 I personally do not think it is wrong, but I do think your expression is dysfunctional as your particular approach causes division and conflict for you. You have been on here for over 15 years and you do not connect with the community, I don’t see evidence of how this alien god has helped you in this context? 

By the way, your argument is circular and bandwagon...

 

 

Edited by Sherapy
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Mr Walker
9 hours ago, Sherapy said:

Basically your need for the alien god construct is to have a connection physically, emotionally, and intellectually, the lack is in you and the god idea fills this void in you. 
 I personally do not think it is wrong, but I do think your expression is dysfunctional as your particular approach causes division and conflict for you. You have been on here for over 15 years and you do not connect with the community, I don’t see evidence of how this alien god has helped you in this context? 

By the way, your argument is circular and bandwagon...

 

 

lol  i have no "need"  for this being. I never asked it in, or invited it's presence.

That was an act of its own will and purpose but it has benefited me significantly and i am now glad it made its presence known  

Until you accept this simple truth you can have no idea of me or my life You attribute needs and motivations based on your rejection of the idea tha t such real and powerful beings exist and intervene  in human lives  

It is you who has a deep need to disbelieve, because you are desperate to be in control of your life, and cant stand the idea that there could be anything which might interfere with that control 

No my argument is not circular.

Conflict here is inevitable because my experiences, and thus my views, lie outside the norm and many people l either simply disbelieve or even fear  anything which conflicts with how they want /need the world to be.  It is that difference of experience and thus knowledge (and the fear)  which causes the conflict  I  threaten many peoples view of their world and their own place in it 

its why you are at me to stop writing and presenting my points  You don't want to hear them and you  don't want them spread. 

I connect with the community in many ways Even debate is a connection, but over the years there have been others who knew the same as i do, and understood the things i do 

True connection must be honest, and not faked to appease others. 

I suspect you find my polarising to be dysfunctional, because you have spent a lot of your life appeasing others and seeking validation and support .

Nothing wrong with peace keeping, as long as it doesnt come at the cost of silencing others, or the truth. 

IMO You've had enough conflict in your life, and find it uncomfortable.  You NEED the approval and support of others. 

  This comes out in your responses to posters who hold similar views to you. 

 

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Sherapy
12 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

lol  i have no "need"  for this being. I never asked it in, or invited it's presence.

That was an act of its own will and purpose but it has benefited me significantly and i am now glad it made its presence known  

Until you accept this simple truth you can have no idea of me or my life You attribute needs and motivations based on your rejection of the idea tha t such real and powerful beings exist and intervene  in human lives  

It is you who has a deep need to disbelieve, because you are desperate to be in control of your life, and cant stand the idea that there could be anything which might interfere with that control 

No my argument is not circular.

Conflict here is inevitable because my experiences, and thus my views, lie outside the norm and many people l either simply disbelieve or even fear  anything which conflicts with how they want /need the world to be.  It is that difference of experience and thus knowledge (and the fear)  which causes the conflict  I  threaten many peoples view of their world and their own place in it 

its why you are at me to stop writing and presenting my points  You don't want to hear them and you  don't want them spread. 

I connect with the community in many ways Even debate is a connection, but over the years there have been others who knew the same as i do, and understood the things i do 

True connection must be honest, and not faked to appease others. 

I suspect you find my polarising to be dysfunctional, because you have spent a lot of your life appeasing others and seeking validation and support .

Nothing wrong with peace keeping, as long as it doesnt come at the cost of silencing others, or the truth. 

IMO You've had enough conflict in your life, and find it uncomfortable.  You NEED the approval and support of others. 

  This comes out in your responses to posters who hold similar views to you. 

 

Wally, breathe, it is far better for your heart than constantly seeking out conflict. 
 

All the best. 

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Mr Walker
10 hours ago, Sherapy said:

Wally, breathe, it is far better for your heart than constantly seeking out conflict. 
 

All the best. 

Sherapy, stop patronising, and making false assumptions about me,  to try and  diminish my authority.

That post was calm, collected, and truthful; but it upset you, and the only recourse you had was to suggest I am hyperventilating/overwrought  :) 

I don't seek out conflict, but anyone who speaks an unpopular truth often is the target of others  who don't want to hear or accept that truth . 

Edited by Mr Walker
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Sherapy
1 hour ago, Mr Walker said:

Sherapy, stop patronising, and making false assumptions about me,  to try and  diminish my authority.

That post was calm, collected, and truthful; but it upset you, and the only recourse you had was to suggest I am hyperventilating/overwrought  :) 

I don't seek out conflict, but anyone who speaks an unpopular truth often is the target of others  who don't want to hear or accept that truth . 

Wally, any feeling of being patronized is coming from you, not on my end. 
 

Based on your posting history you are often in the midst of drama and conflict or fighting with someone. I can’t believe for a minute this is good for you. Just my two cents.

All the best.

 

 

Edited by Sherapy
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Hammerclaw
On 6/14/2020 at 11:22 AM, GlitterRose said:

If there is some sort of higher being or force that set all of this in motion, I don't think it would have a desire for worship.

It just doesn't seem like the type of thing a higher being would be mulling over. It's seems kind of childish and ego-driven.

This. Rose is right on the money. M.M. Kaye nailed it with Ash's prayer in The Far Pavilions.

Oh, Lord, forgive three sins that are due to my human limitations. Thou art Everywhere, but I worship thee here: Thou art without form, but I worship thee in these forms; Thou needest no praise, yet I offer thee these prayers and salutations. Lord, forgive three sins that are due to my human limitations." - Ash” ― M. M. Kaye

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Mr Walker
50 minutes ago, Sherapy said:

Wally, any feeling of being patronized is coming from you, not on my end. 
 

Based on your posting history you are often in the midst of drama and conflict or fighting with someone. I can’t believe for a minute this is good for you. Just my two cents.

All the best.

 

 

True. I feel patronised because your tone is patronising and even the words are patronising. Even your choice of the diminutive (wally) to address m e, is an attempt to reduce my authority and gravitas. :) 

  So, if you don't want me to feel patronised, don't write using a patronising tone or words :) 

Now it doesn't worry me,( ie effect my ego or self  worth, that you speak in a patronising way) but it does speak to how you regard others, or perhaps how little notice you take of tone and content  

Again, you impose how you would feel on me.

  I enjoy UM and the debates The y dont stress me or make me anxious.

This time is very good, (entertaining and relaxing), for me, with just enough challenge to keep it interesting, even after 16   years :) 

Remember. i am an egotistical, narcissistic, sociopath, so I am completely unaffected by such attempts to diminish me :) 

Or, alternatively, I control  how i construct  my responses, and I  choose amusement, rather than anger,  at such transparent attempts to bait me. 

Maybe  (being generous again)  you actually believe you are being thoughtful, pleasant, and helpful with your suggestions, but i have corrected you so many times, that this is increasingly unlikely 

Edited by Mr Walker

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eight bits
4 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

Now it doesn't worry me,( ie effect my ego or self  worth, that you speak in a patronising way)

Which is why you didn't mention it.

Again.

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Mr Walker
1 hour ago, eight bits said:

Which is why you didn't mention it.

Again.

No. I made it clear that I drew other reader's attention to it, because i believe her purpose is to belittle my authority/ integrity and to prevent others taking me seriously. Basically it is why she always refers to me as Wally.

I find this amusing, but the intent to belittle, and  thus reduce the effectiveness of anything I post  is clear.  eg "what a Wally" 

  It doesn't hurt or offend me, but it is basic trolling /an attempt to manipulate debate, outside of allowable forms such as rational argument   

Maybe it is not deliberate, just lack of awareness of her tone . 

"but it does speak to how you regard others, or perhaps how little notice you take of tone and content " 

i've said many times, and explained to moderators, that i will never let personal commentary which is ignorant, iil informed, or designed to reduce my authority/  intelligence/ right to comment ,  pass un criticised. 

That would allow the bullies to force you out of the playground.  The irony is that i  would probably  have left of my own accord long ago, if not for the need to constantly defend myself from  such comments. 

Edited by Mr Walker

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openozy

My sweet lord,I don't like the word lord but I understand what George Harrison was on about.

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eight bits
44 minutes ago, Mr Walker said:

That would allow the bullies to force you out of the playground.

Sherapy is not a bully, Mr Walker.

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Alchopwn
1 hour ago, Mr Walker said:

No. I made it clear that I drew other reader's attention to it, because i believe her purpose is to belittle my authority/ integrity and to prevent others taking me seriously. 

There is no chance of that happening.

1 hour ago, Mr Walker said:

Basically it is why she always refers to me as Wally.

I find this amusing, but the intent to belittle, and  thus reduce the effectiveness of anything I post  is clear.  eg "what a Wally" 

  It doesn't hurt or offend me, but it is basic trolling /an attempt to manipulate debate, outside of allowable forms such as rational argument   

Maybe it is not deliberate, just lack of awareness of her tone . 

Is your narcissism acting up again Walker?  Being called a "wally" is like being thrashed with a lettuce.  I can't see how a grown man would give it any consideration.

1 hour ago, Mr Walker said:

 i've said many times, and explained to moderators, that i will never let personal commentary which is ignorant, iil informed, or designed to reduce my authority/  intelligence/ right to comment ,  pass un criticised. 

Few mentally ill people do, especially if they are suffering from a narcissism spectrum disorder that brooks no challenge to their self image.  Few mentally healthy people would give a damn however.  Ad hominem is a cheap and obvious tactic, unless there is copious evidence to support the indictment, and the insulter is merely giving voice to what everyone already thinks, including the offended party themselves.

1 hour ago, Mr Walker said:

That would allow the bullies to force you out of the playground.  The irony is that i  would probably  have left of my own accord long ago, if not for the need to constantly defend myself from  such comments. 

Such an unmitigated victimology.   "You called me a wally, so I shall fight thee to the death madame".  To quote Dr Zachary Smith: "Oh the pain ! The PAIN!"

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Sherapy
10 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

True. I feel patronised because your tone is patronising and even the words are patronising. Even your choice of the diminutive (wally) to address m e, is an attempt to reduce my authority and gravitas. :) 

  So, if you don't want me to feel patronised, don't write using a patronising tone or words :) 

Now it doesn't worry me,( ie effect my ego or self  worth, that you speak in a patronising way) but it does speak to how you regard others, or perhaps how little notice you take of tone and content  

Again, you impose how you would feel on me.

  I enjoy UM and the debates The y dont stress me or make me anxious.

This time is very good, (entertaining and relaxing), for me, with just enough challenge to keep it interesting, even after 16   years :) 

Remember. i am an egotistical, narcissistic, sociopath, so I am completely unaffected by such attempts to diminish me :) 

Or, alternatively, I control  how i construct  my responses, and I  choose amusement, rather than anger,  at such transparent attempts to bait me. 

Maybe  (being generous again)  you actually believe you are being thoughtful, pleasant, and helpful with your suggestions, but i have corrected you so many times, that this is increasingly unlikely 

Using Wally, for me, is analogous to “The Wally and the Beaver” characters from a television show that spotlighted a specific way to happier times. My point in using it is my way of saying you don’t need all the drama and conflict you are drawn too, instead just be focused on the happiness you state you live by. Of course, this is only my two cents. 

The only one who can have an influence on your authority or dignity is you. I don’t have that power and if I did, I would encourage you to choose to post in a way that isn’t controversial, or conflict seeking. I would encourage you to nurture friendships in a community you are part of too. You choose the posts you respond to and often you are involved in or creating drama where there is none as this particular series of response shows. 
 

I genuinely do extend compassion to you and your role as a caregiver to you wife and wish you all the best, you need your energy for her. 
 

All the best. 

Edited by Sherapy
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Sherapy
4 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

No. I made it clear that I drew other reader's attention to it, because i believe her purpose is to belittle my authority/ integrity and to prevent others taking me seriously. Basically it is why she always refers to me as Wally.

I find this amusing, but the intent to belittle, and  thus reduce the effectiveness of anything I post  is clear.  eg "what a Wally" 

  It doesn't hurt or offend me, but it is basic trolling /an attempt to manipulate debate, outside of allowable forms such as rational argument   

Maybe it is not deliberate, just lack of awareness of her tone . 

"but it does speak to how you regard others, or perhaps how little notice you take of tone and content " 

i've said many times, and explained to moderators, that i will never let personal commentary which is ignorant, iil informed, or designed to reduce my authority/  intelligence/ right to comment ,  pass un criticised. 

That would allow the bullies to force you out of the playground.  The irony is that i  would probably  have left of my own accord long ago, if not for the need to constantly defend myself from  such comments. 

“Wally” can be used as a term of endearment meaning pal or buddy too. I think everyone has the capacity to be clumsy and ignorant, including myself. In fact, there are many areas I am ignorant about. 
 

You have literally worked yourself up by implying a situation that doesn’t exist. Why?

Just my two cents, If I was you I would look at this as an opportunity for personal growth, 
 

Your “need to defend yourself“ in most cases is based on the way you perceive things, this is a perfect example, why didn’t you just seek clarification? 

 

 

Edited by Sherapy
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lightly

..I read most of this thread...and wow you guys! :lol:     What's the name of this thread?  Oya,  "Does God Expect to be Worshipped"?   . .something to remember it by when it too get's closed..any minute now  :P

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XenoFish

Oh look. Another Walker thread. How many is that now?

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onlookerofmayhem
6 minutes ago, XenoFish said:

Oh look. Another Walker thread. How many is that now?

5,872

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XenoFish
4 minutes ago, onlookerofmayhem said:

5,872

I can believe that. Because people can't help themselves.

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Mr Walker
10 hours ago, Sherapy said:

“Wally” can be used as a term of endearment meaning pal or buddy too. I think everyone has the capacity to be clumsy and ignorant, including myself. In fact, there are many areas I am ignorant about. 
 

You have literally worked yourself up by implying a situation that doesn’t exist. Why?

Just my two cents, If I was you I would look at this as an opportunity for personal growth, 
 

Your “need to defend yourself“ in most cases is based on the way you perceive things, this is a perfect example, why didn’t you just seek clarification? 

 

 

Do I accept your word on this or not? 

For over a decade i have accepted your word that  you don't have ill intent, while hundreds of posts have suggested you do.

  Maybe its just your total inability to comprehend, or   to accept, other views, or to let go of your need to be in total control of your world.

  That would also explain a lot of your views .

You see everything through the lens of YOUR mind, and can't see that other humans are totally different to you. (or why this is so) 

Ok i will continue to try and believe you.

it is hard for me to believe you use Wally as a term of endearment  when it is attached to the content you post about me but i will do my best to believe. :) 

I defend my views values ethics and the factual content of my posts 

Not doing that would surrender the ground to people with different values/ beliefs  and who don't accept the truth of my posts 

As mentioned before conflict arises from  difference.

I am different to most (but not all) posters here.

Thus conflict is inevitable unless i acquiesce to be as others are. 

Given that  I believe the y are wrong that is not going to happen .

"Personal growth"  in your terms means growing to be more like you and others like you. 

No thanks.

My life is pretty perfect as it is.   

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