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Captain Risky

NEWS: Gobekli Tepe complex built by design

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Captain Risky

Israeli Archaeologists Find Hidden Pattern at ‘World’s Oldest P.M. Temple’ Göbekli Tepe

“Neolithic hunter-gatherers”  who erected massive monoliths in central Turkey 11,500 years ago had command of geometry and a much more complex society than previously thought, archaeologists say

https://www.google.com.au/amp/s/www.haaretz.com/amp/israel-news/.premium-israeli-archaeologists-find-hidden-pattern-at-gobekli-tepe-1.8799837

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Swede
3 minutes ago, Captain Risky said:

Israeli Archaeologists Find Hidden Pattern at ‘World’s Oldest P.M. Temple’ Göbekli Tepe

“Neolithic hunter-gatherers”  who erected massive monoliths in central Turkey 11,500 years ago had command of geometry and a much more complex society than previously thought, archaeologists say

https://www.google.com.au/amp/s/www.haaretz.com/amp/israel-news/.premium-israeli-archaeologists-find-hidden-pattern-at-gobekli-tepe-1.8799837

Bit behind the curve are we? Check your own previous GT topic.

.

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Captain Risky
1 minute ago, Swede said:

Bit behind the curve are we? Check your own previous GT topic.

.

In what way am I “a bit behind the curve?”

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Captain Risky

Well well well. No surprise to me that that Gobekli Tepe was more than the work of hunter gathers. Something I argued for with my various GT posts. Nice to have some scientific back up. The inclusion of geometric influences in its construction is a game changer.

 

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19_Kilo

Pretty cool article. Thanks.

Two primary thoughts come to mind after reading....

I'm guessing the equilateral triangle was formed by marking shadows from placed stones or pillars that moved according to solar movement. Or rather, the movement of earth around the sun. Thus, like Stonehenge and most temple-like structures thousands of years old, G-T was astronomical or seasonally based. That triangle could have been based on seasonal shadow shift too.

Not to take anything away from a 12K year old civilization. But an equilateral triangle ain't rocket science. LOL.  One simply place two marks or stones or whatever any given distance apart and then halve that distance and walk it off the original spacing distance to form the third point. Then check spacing and remeasure if needed.

Lastly, I think we often underestimated intelligence of peoples from 10K, 20K, even 50K years ago.  Remember that in evolution or archeological time that's an eye blink. Their brains would be insignificantly different, structurally speaking. Maybe even identical to ours. And if true intelligence is the ability to learn new tasks and concepts quickly, as I believe it is,  then there's no reason to think we are any more intelligent at all. This, because we certainly don't have to live by our wits daily as they did.

Peace.

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Hanslune
Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, 19_Kilo said:

Pretty cool article. Thanks.

Two primary thoughts come to mind after reading....

I'm guessing the equilateral triangle was formed by marking shadows from placed stones or pillars that moved according to solar movement. Or rather, the movement of earth around the sun. Thus, like Stonehenge and most temple-like structures thousands of years old, G-T was astronomical or seasonally based. That triangle could have been based on seasonal shadow shift too.

Not to take anything away from a 12K year old civilization. But an equilateral triangle ain't rocket science. LOL.  One simply place two marks or stones or whatever any given distance apart and then halve that distance and walk it off the original spacing distance to form the third point. Then check spacing and remeasure if needed.

Lastly, I think we often underestimated intelligence of peoples from 10K, 20K, even 50K years ago.  Remember that in evolution or archeological time that's an eye blink. Their brains would be insignificantly different, structurally speaking. Maybe even identical to ours. And if true intelligence is the ability to learn new tasks and concepts quickly, as I believe it is,  then there's no reason to think we are any more intelligent at all. This, because we certainly don't have to live by our wits daily as they did.

Peace.

The problem is that they put only three dots down- why not more dots? There are additional enclosures are there not?  Three dots will always equal a triangle but 4-5-6+ or more dots will give you a lop sided rectangle, pentagram etc.,which isn't impressive.

Gobekli%20Plan.jpg

 

There are currently six known enclosures and it is highly suspected their are many more::

 

Gobekli-Tepes-six-structures-known-so-fa

Why no dots  in them all? See above

Edited by Hanslune
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19_Kilo
14 minutes ago, Hanslune said:

The problem is that they put only three dots down- why not more dots? There are additional enclosures are there not?  Three dots will always equal a triangle but 4-5-6+ or more dots will give you a lop sided rectangle, pentagram etc.,which isn't impressive.

Gobekli%20Plan.jpg

 

There are currently six known enclosures and it is highly suspected their are many more::

 

Gobekli-Tepes-six-structures-known-so-fa

Why no dots  in them all? See above

I don't see how the fact only one enclosure or circle (lopsided and not symmetrical, btw) has an equilateral triangle makes the feat more impressive. Don't get me wrong, this is interesting work, but hardly mind boggling in its complexity. 

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Hanslune
1 hour ago, 19_Kilo said:

I don't see how the fact only one enclosure or circle (lopsided and not symmetrical, btw) has an equilateral triangle makes the feat more impressive. Don't get me wrong, this is interesting work, but hardly mind boggling in its complexity. 

Yes it is mildly interesting but we cannot know if it was intentional or just a coincidence. As with so much of GT we'll have to wait a while for more excavations

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19_Kilo
7 minutes ago, Hanslune said:

Yes it is mildly interesting but we cannot know if it was intentional or just a coincidence. As with so much of GT we'll have to wait a while for more excavations

Yeah, my first reaction to seeing the equilateral triangle was indeed "possible coincidence" since one can make an irregular or isocoles tri  by placing three points virtually anywhere. But upon reading the article I saw the equilateral was accurate to within one foot or less with distances between points being about 60 feet. (Sorry, I'm an American so I converted the original metric stats. LOL)

With that degree of accuracy (<1.5%) I had to think it was intentionally measured. I still like my seasonal/astronomical theory for the source of that accuracy, though. Thanks!

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Hanslune
Posted (edited)

One has to ask what value would they gain from 'making a triangle'? One that only shows up in a look down map from a bird's eye view. Now they did seem to have sighting holes.  Knowing when seasons were coming would have been valuable to them - knowing that at x when the sun rose at point Y the wild grasses along the nearby river would be ready for harvesting, or the gazelle would start their migration to the northern pastures and other such information. We know historical groups had such seasonal changes known to them and could measure it by day counts, mid day angles and the sun rising or setting at certain points along the horizon.

 

Essan or Cormac I believe is more knowledge in that subject area as is Swede.

Edited by Hanslune
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19_Kilo
1 minute ago, Hanslune said:

One has to ask what value would they gain from 'making a triangle'? One that only shows up in a look down map from a bird's eye view. Now they did seem to have sighting holes.  Knowing when seasons were coming would have been valuable to them - knowing that at x when the sun rose at point Y the wild grasses along the nearby river would be ready for harvesting, or the gazelle would start their migration to the northern pastures and other such information. We know historical groups had such seasonal changes known to them and could measure it by day counts, mid day angles and the sun rising or setting at certain points along the horizon.

Wow, that's an excellent theory. It answers both main questions: why and how. Good job, sir!

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Hanslune
Posted (edited)
5 minutes ago, 19_Kilo said:

Wow, that's an excellent theory. It answers both main questions: why and how. Good job, sir!

The ancients observed the sky and noted as hunters would that the cycle of animals and plants followed he seasons and that they too could follow them by observing the sky and noting changes. Knowing when say a certain animals gives birth gives one a chance to hunt them as the mothers are vulnerable or that certain species of birds will lay eggs at a certain time or root vegetable would be best at an indicated period.

 

That is all standard Anthropology 201 stuff

Edited by Hanslune

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19_Kilo
Posted (edited)
11 minutes ago, Hanslune said:

The ancients observed the sky and noted as hunters would that the cycle of animals and plants followed he seasons and that they too could follow them by observing the sky and noting changes. Knowing when say a certain animals gives birth gives one a chance to hunt them as the mothers are vulnerable or that certain species of birds will lay eggs at a certain time or root vegetable would be best at an indicated period.

 

That is all standard Anthropology 201 stuff

Of course it is. But no such theory was presented in the OP for the triangles or sighting holes.  Not that I remember.  Instead the structures were thought to be religious in nature. I was the first poster to suggest seasonal shadowing/astronomical/celestial underpinnings for the triangle. People of that time were infinitely more dependent upon and tuned in to the natural world than we are. If they indeed just traced celestial or seasonal movements then they didn't even need math. It's all just connect the dots. Or place the stones. Like Stonehenge. 

https://earthsky.org/earth/gallery-the-summer-solstice-as-seen-from-stonehenge

I think some anthropologist tend to over think the reasons and methods used for constructing these sorts of structures. The old coke bottle bit from "The Gods Must Be Crazy" was far more accurate than many think. It was actually an inside joke for anthro guys.

Edited by 19_Kilo
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Hanslune
Posted (edited)
55 minutes ago, 19_Kilo said:

 The old coke bottle bit from "The Gods Must Be Crazy" was far more accurate than many think. It was actually an inside joke for anthro guys.

Yep, I use to bring coke bottles from the United States to the ME so they could be used in excavations. They were a great way to mark a site having been excavated or otherwise disturbed. I left about two hundred of them in various test pits over much of SE Cyprus and elsewhere. Use to seal stuff inside them too using lead but that would sometimes crack the bottles.

 

Oh and by 'coke' bottles I meant both Coke and Pepsi bottles as most Arab nations didn't bottle coke until more recently. Pepsi glass bottles were always easy to get. Fanta could be used to but were considered low class!

Edited by Hanslune
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Captain Risky
9 hours ago, 19_Kilo said:

I don't see how the fact only one enclosure or circle (lopsided and not symmetrical, btw) has an equilateral triangle makes the feat more impressive. Don't get me wrong, this is interesting work, but hardly mind boggling in its complexity. 

Triangles in the Sky: Trigonometry and Early Theories of Planetary Motion - Introduction

Author(s): 
Sandra M. Caravella (New Jersey City University)

Since ancient times, human beings have observed the sky and the movements of the objects—sun, moon, stars, and planets—within it. The regular movements of the sun, moon, and stars provided humanity with its first clocks and calendars, while the irregular but still patterned motions of the planets inspired the idea that their wanderings may influence events here on earth. For these two reasons, ancient civilizations such as the Babylonians, Greeks, Indians, Chinese, and Mayans systematically observed the sky and worked out mathematical schemes to describe what they found there, thereby establishing the science now known as mathematical astronomy.

Ancient mathematical astronomers in Greece and India in particular employed a variety of geometrical models to describe the pattern of movements within the sky, models that were further developed by the Islamic civilization. Computation with these models was a major impetus behind the development of trigonometry, and Copernicus’s attempt to simplify and refine them led to the “sun-centered” geometric model of the Copernican Revolution. Working with these historically significant models—both ancient and Copernican—requires a good knowledge of basic trigonometry, a fact which is left out of most history books, with the result that few people are aware of their mathematical underpinning.

In this paper I describe the prototype of the Greek and Indian models for planetary motion—the basic “epicycle-deferent” model invented by Apollonius of Perga. I show how to find the parameters of this basic model and how to use the model to compute planetary positions. We shall see that trigonometry is exactly the ingredient that makes such geometric models—both ancient and Copernican—quantitatively useful.

 

 

 

 

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Captain Risky

original_stretch_combined.jpg

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Sir Wearer of Hats

Equilateral triangles are easy to make once you have a circle. You quarter the circle, and link on point to the nearest two other points and then run a straight line across the middle.

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Hanslune
8 hours ago, Sir Wearer of Hats said:

Equilateral triangles are easy to make once you have a circle. You quarter the circle, and link on point to the nearest two other points and then run a straight line across the middle.

Yes, I'm wondering now if all the flower beds and vegetable garden I made over the years were actually oriented on something - they probably were but then I wasn't actually trying to do so.

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Sir Wearer of Hats
2 hours ago, Hanslune said:

Yes, I'm wondering now if all the flower beds and vegetable garden I made over the years were actually oriented on something - they probably were but then I wasn't actually trying to do so.

All of mine run either directly noth-south or east-west due to the orientation of my house. It’s totally unintentional, even the house is nicely aligned, which none of the other houses in the street are.

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kmt_sesh
4 hours ago, Sir Wearer of Hats said:

All of mine run either directly noth-south or east-west due to the orientation of my house. It’s totally unintentional, even the house is nicely aligned, which none of the other houses in the street are.

Here we go again. Yep, I'm still around and check in every day. This one seems a bit like a rerun so I'll leave it to you folks for now.

 

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Piney
34 minutes ago, kmt_sesh said:

Here we go again. Yep, I'm still around and check in every day. This one seems a bit like a rerun so I'll leave it to you folks for now.

Good to see you Jono!!

Stay safe!!! :tu:

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Jon the frog
On 5/10/2020 at 5:45 PM, 19_Kilo said:

Pretty cool article. Thanks.

Two primary thoughts come to mind after reading....

I'm guessing the equilateral triangle was formed by marking shadows from placed stones or pillars that moved according to solar movement. Or rather, the movement of earth around the sun. Thus, like Stonehenge and most temple-like structures thousands of years old, G-T was astronomical or seasonally based. That triangle could have been based on seasonal shadow shift too.

Not to take anything away from a 12K year old civilization. But an equilateral triangle ain't rocket science. LOL.  One simply place two marks or stones or whatever any given distance apart and then halve that distance and walk it off the original spacing distance to form the third point. Then check spacing and remeasure if needed.

Lastly, I think we often underestimated intelligence of peoples from 10K, 20K, even 50K years ago.  Remember that in evolution or archeological time that's an eye blink. Their brains would be insignificantly different, structurally speaking. Maybe even identical to ours. And if true intelligence is the ability to learn new tasks and concepts quickly, as I believe it is,  then there's no reason to think we are any more intelligent at all. This, because we certainly don't have to live by our wits daily as they did.

Peace.

Probably they were more clever than we are now... less knowledge but more clever.

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Trelane

They sure were some clever folks. Truly amazing how much they were really doing back then.

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Hanslune
1 hour ago, Trelane said:

They sure were some clever folks. Truly amazing how much they were really doing back then.

Yes it is fortunate they did at least some work in stone. I suspect most/more of their amazing things were done in wood, bone and other perishable mediums and are long gone.

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