Cognitive process of deniers and nuts

[JackTheManiac]

Good evening,

With the recent Coronavirus events I fell upon the deep hole of conspirationalists/conspirationist (conspiracy theory nuts), vaccine deniers, skeptics, and social distance deniers.

They really went out full force. Most of them I've seen are in french, but I can share. I'm sure you can also find plenty in english! However I'm not American (french canadian).

But there are A LOT of them in Facebook comments. Like a whole damn lot.

Their beliefs are the usual bull**** info that Facebook now marks as fake news, but there are a few things I noticed them say I find interesting Paraphrasing....

"Do your own research, you'll find the answers..."

"We are thinking by ourselves"

"People are sheep who watch the news"

"The mainstream news are lying to you to control you"

and my favorite... not paraphrased (translated)

"Every citizen that has a working brain is a "conspiracy theory nut""

So, I'd like to know more about the cognitive process behind them.

Some questions to start the discussion

• Question 1: Why do they think they're more aware than "other people" around them?
• Question 2: Why can't they assess information using critical thinking?

Maybe the answer is Dunning Kruger to both...

 

Let me know what you think about this!

 

 

[Imaginarynumber1]

Cognitive dissonance. Dunning Kruger. Wanting to feel "in the know". Feeling special becausee they have "inside information". Just look at some of the nutters here who for YEARS now have been claiming Hilary, Obama, et al will be arrested and tried with treason, pedophilia, murder, etc. 

[Piney]

Here's a start.....

https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Dunning-Kruger_effect

https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Confirmation_bias

https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Logical_fallacy

Conspiridiocy always grows with adversity.....

[Piney]

Just now, Imaginarynumber1 said:

Cognitive dissonance. Dunning Kruger. Wanting to feel "in the know". Feeling special becausee they have "inside information". Just look at some of the nutters here who for YEARS now have been claiming Hilary, Obama, et al will be arrested and tried with treason, pedophilia, murder, etc. 

They're wrong.....

Obama's getting deported back to Kenya to be tried in a Muslim court. 

[JackTheManiac]

Good links, good links, I was aware of a few of those.

What makes and individual more "weak" to false beliefs and news, what's the difference between a  "normal person" and them?

[+joc]

16 minutes ago, JackTheManiac said:

"Do your own research, you'll find the answers..."

"We are thinking by ourselves"

"People are sheep who watch the news"

"The mainstream news are lying to you to control you"

and my favorite... not paraphrased (translated)

"Every citizen that has a working brain is a "conspiracy theory nut""

Hmmm...I do my own research and I do find the answers.

I do think for myself.

People are sheep...for the most part...whether they watch the news or not...I personally don't watch the news...I just watch the sheep.  (and occasionally lick my chops)

The mainstream news are lying to you...but that's a given...and why I don't watch them.

Only the citizens who do not have working brains are conspiracy nuts.  If your brain is actually working...it should clue you in to the reality of said nuts...if you don't find the answers though, you can always do your own research.

I don't have Facebook.  Baaaaaaa

 

Edited May 16, 2020 by joc

[XenoFish]

6 minutes ago, JackTheManiac said:

Good links, good links, I was aware of a few of those.

What makes and individual more "weak" to false beliefs and news, what's the difference between a  "normal person" and them?

Actually nothing makes them weak. They want something that agrees with them. All it takes is for one seed of an idea to go from "normal" to conspiridiot. 

The thing about beliefs is that people who hold onto them are probably stronger willed than the average person. Doesn't mean that what they believe is right though.

[Imaginarynumber1]

10 minutes ago, Piney said:

They're wrong.....

Obama's getting deported back to Kenya to be tried in a Muslim court. 

Well, if he had just showed the long form birth certificate...

[Piney]

9 minutes ago, JackTheManiac said:

What makes and individual more "weak" to false beliefs and news, what's the difference between a  "normal person" and them?

I don't think it's a weakness per se.   I never understood it though.

I scientifically and theologically pulled a Space Jesus cult to pieces with the believers having no answers yet they still believe.  

I can historically pull the Bible apart into bits. Show it's all mostly fallacies. I easily convinced my sister, who's a Zen Buddhist and also a research scientist but American Evangelical will argue in a circle with nonsense. 

[zep73]

11 minutes ago, JackTheManiac said:

Good links, good links, I was aware of a few of those.

What makes and individual more "weak" to false beliefs and news, what's the difference between a  "normal person" and them?

Anyone can fall victim to a conspiracy hoax. All it takes is for the victim to be a bit naive, and not fact check the information they are bombarded with.
Especially youtube videos are convincing, because they are fast pace, and you don't pause them to check the claims. And when you're done, there's just so many details to check, that you feel overwhelmed.
When you feel overwhelmed like that, you rationalize, but in the wrong way. You tell yourself that so many "facts" can't be wrong. You refuse to believe someone would tell you so many lies deliberately. You are in the rabbit hole.

And that hole is a lot harder to escape, than getting into.

[Tatetopa]

“It's easier to fool people than to convince them that they have been fooled.”

― Mark Twain

I think a part of it is because it is so easy.  It takes little work or research and you are not assailed by unpleasant ideas that disagree with what you already believe.

JOC is right, people should think for themselves,

Sometimes though that might mean doing the research and tracing the sources on something you hear or read. 

[Tatetopa]

4 minutes ago, 19_Kilo said:

The crazy-overfilled hospital ERs hoax has been debunked here in the U.S. by dozens of videos. Most are empty.

Sun tzu, The Art of War. The greatest general is the one who can prevent a war.

[zep73]

8 minutes ago, 19_Kilo said:

I think the media has been exaggerating the seriousness and the potential exacerbation of the Covid thing.

....

The crazy-overfilled hospital ERs hoax   ...   The mass graves

....

Death stats have been inflated. Covid will be less severe than the Swine Flu epidemic and not even in the same ballpark as the 1918 Spanish Flu. Hell, not even the same galaxy.

I don't think you understand the math of what's going on.

Covid-19 is the most contagious lethal disease the world has ever faced. It spreads fast, but shows slow, so thousands of people can get it, before the first case is known.
This puts a huge strain on hospital capacity, because the patients all come in one huge wave. And it puts a strain on the handling of dead bodies, because they also come in huge waves.

The trick is to avoid those waves. And that takes civil obedience. Something that conspiracy nuts hate.

[Grim Reaper 6]

14 minutes ago, 19_Kilo said:

I think the media has been exaggerating the seriousness and the potential exacerbation of the Covid thing. Whether they've done it on their own to boost ratings, or in the case of the liberal media, to make Trump look bad and get him voted out in November,  I'm not sure. Likely it's both. It's no coincidence this thing has blown up just months prior to our presidential election.

The crazy-overfilled hospital ERs hoax has been debunked here in the U.S. by dozens of videos. Most are empty. The mass graves in other countries has also been debunked, as have the hospital parking lot storage containers fantasize.

Oh, Covid is real, all right. Make no mistake as to what I'm saying.  People have died. But 97% who get it recover just fine. Death stats have been inflated. Covid will be less severe than the Swine Flu epidemic and not even in the same ballpark as the 1918 Spanish Flu. Hell, not even the same galaxy.

Watch and see who gets to become trilllionaires with the vaccine,  which I'm guessing will be out very soon. Imagine that! LOL 

If all these personal opinions make me one of the wackos of which you speak in your OP, in your eyes, then so be it.

Time will tell who really drank the Kool Aid, I reckon. We should know by this time next year. 

I feel pretty good about my chances of not being that guy. LOL 

Peace.

Please prove that as of today, that more 85,000 Americans haven't died from COVID 19. Making the statement and proving it are too different things, so please prove it, supply some articles that are Peer Reviewed that can show that many of the Americans listed as dead are still alive. I have to be honest, I don't believe those comments and I think they are a conspiracy theory and nothing else. I will wait for your response.

Peace 

[Grim Reaper 6]

19 minutes ago, Tatetopa said:

“It's easier to fool people than to convince them that they have been fooled.”

― Mark Twain

I think a part of it is because it is so easy.  It takes little work or research and you are not assailed by unpleasant ideas that disagree with what you already believe.

JOC is right, people should think for themselves,

Sometimes though that might mean doing the research and tracing the sources on something you hear or read. 

Currently with media in our Nation being completely untrustworthy the only way to get accurate and complete information is to factcheck everything yourself. 

Peace

[zep73]

5 minutes ago, 19_Kilo said:

If you truly think Covid19 is the most lethal and contagious disease in World History than I don't think you understand virology and pathology and epidemiology.

You read what you want to read, but that was not what I wrote.

I did not say it was the most lethal. I said it was the most contagious lethal disease.

Edited May 16, 2020 by sci-nerd

[Grim Reaper 6]

1 hour ago, JackTheManiac said:

Good evening,

With the recent Coronavirus events I fell upon the deep hole of conspirationalists/conspirationist (conspiracy theory nuts), vaccine deniers, skeptics, and social distance deniers.

They really went out full force. Most of them I've seen are in french, but I can share. I'm sure you can also find plenty in english! However I'm not American (french canadian).

But there are A LOT of them in Facebook comments. Like a whole damn lot.

Their beliefs are the usual bull**** info that Facebook now marks as fake news, but there are a few things I noticed them say I find interesting Paraphrasing....

"Do your own research, you'll find the answers..."

"We are thinking by ourselves"

"People are sheep who watch the news"

"The mainstream news are lying to you to control you"

and my favorite... not paraphrased (translated)

"Every citizen that has a working brain is a "conspiracy theory nut""

So, I'd like to know more about the cognitive process behind them.

Some questions to start the discussion

• Question 1: Why do they think they're more aware than "other people" around them?
• Question 2: Why can't they assess information using critical thinking?

Maybe the answer is Dunning Kruger to both...

 

Let me know what you think about this!

 

 

I have given this some serious thought, and what I have found is that Conspiracy theorists are general people who have a problem with Anxiety. It's not that they intentional choose not to believe it more a case where their mental condition will not allow them to believe. This is like I said above, Anxiety, fear, and some form of compulsion cause them to never except the truth unless it agrees with what their individual minds have conceived. We have a number of these people right here on this forum, who are impossible to have a discussion with because they cant accept any form of proof that dispels their preconceived notions.

That's my take on it.

Peace   

[zep73]

1 minute ago, 19_Kilo said:

Nice fencing.

You're a smart guy. You're just a bit off, probably mislead by some well spoken jerks. But I have faith in you. You will get past this. One day.

[Grim Reaper 6]

3 minutes ago, 19_Kilo said:

Obviously I do not possess the wherewithal to disprove the Covid stats my government has promulgated to the public. As I stated my OP consisted of my own opinions based on my experience and research.

Then again, I cannot disprove the notion of God being exactly like Yahweh, either. Yet I feel pretty confident that depiction isn't accurate. 

You just said above that you have researched this issue, please post where the research that helped you to form that idea came from. If it is all your opinion that isn't based upon any proven facts, that is fine we all have the right to form opinions and believe what we choose to, however if you don't clearly identify it as such you will be called on. Kilo I mean no disrespect but that issue is being presented by the Conspiracy Theorists as we speak and they also can't clearly identify a source of even why they believe that to be true.

Peace

 

[JackTheManiac]

42 minutes ago, 19_Kilo said:

I think the media has been exaggerating the seriousness and the potential exacerbation of the Covid thing. Whether they've done it on their own to boost ratings, or in the case of the liberal media, to make Trump look bad and get him voted out in November,  I'm not sure. Likely it's both. It's no coincidence this thing has blown up just months prior to our presidential election.

The crazy-overfilled hospital ERs hoax has been debunked here in the U.S. by dozens of videos. Most are empty. The mass graves in other countries has also been debunked, as have the hospital parking lot storage containers fantasize.

Oh, Covid is real, all right. Make no mistake as to what I'm saying.  People have died. But 97% who get it recover just fine. Death stats have been inflated. Covid will be less severe than the Swine Flu epidemic and not even in the same ballpark as the 1918 Spanish Flu. Hell, not even the same galaxy.

Watch and see who gets to become trilllionaires with the vaccine,  which I'm guessing will be out very soon. Imagine that! LOL 

If all these personal opinions make me one of the wackos of which you speak in your OP, in your eyes, then so be it.

Time will tell who really drank the Kool Aid, I reckon. We should know by this time next year. 

I feel pretty good about my chances of not being that guy. LOL 

Peace.

While I wish not going on to debating who is correct regarding the coronavirus fallout.

You being here is good. I'd like to know more of your point of view, as from my point of view indeed you would fall into the group of "nuts" but I would not take this antagonistic approach with you here. I'd like to know more about your point of view and what led you to hold this point of view.

So, you're very well aware that your beliefs are not "mainstream" and not agreed to by the science, justified by lies, hoax.

• Why do you think other people are incorrect?
• Why do you think the government make up these hoaxes and lies?
• What would you do if you turned out to be incorrect in one year? Would you admit it and change your ways?
• What do you think of this retort of your "Trillionaires with vaccines" comment? https://www.skepticalraptor.com/skepticalraptorblog.php/the-myth-of-big-pharma-vaccine-profits-updated/
• How do you decide which sources are good and which ones are bad?

Edited May 16, 2020 by JackTheManiac

[JackTheManiac]

But afterwards, what will you do? Will you reflect on why you were incorrect? Will you change the way you assess information, and mistrust the kind of sources that misled you?

[Imaginarynumber1]

46 minutes ago, 19_Kilo said:

I think the media has been exaggerating the seriousness and the potential exacerbation of the Covid thing. Whether they've done it on their own to boost ratings, or in the case of the liberal media, to make Trump look bad and get him voted out in November,  I'm not sure. Likely it's both. It's no coincidence this thing has blown up just months prior to our presidential election.

The crazy-overfilled hospital ERs hoax has been debunked here in the U.S. by dozens of videos. Most are empty. The mass graves in other countries has also been debunked, as have the hospital parking lot storage containers fantasize.

Oh, Covid is real, all right. Make no mistake as to what I'm saying.  People have died. But 97% who get it recover just fine. Death stats have been inflated. Covid will be less severe than the Swine Flu epidemic and not even in the same ballpark as the 1918 Spanish Flu. Hell, not even the same galaxy.

Watch and see who gets to become trilllionaires with the vaccine,  which I'm guessing will be out very soon. Imagine that! LOL 

If all these personal opinions make me one of the wackos of which you speak in your OP, in your eyes, then so be it.

Time will tell who really drank the Kool Aid, I reckon. We should know by this time next year. 

I feel pretty good about my chances of not being that guy. LOL 

Peace.

Here's a good example.

Hits all the bases that have been mentioned

 

[Grim Reaper 6]

16 minutes ago, 19_Kilo said:

If you truly think Covid19 is the most lethal and contagious disease in World History than I don't think you understand virology and pathology and epidemiology.

https://www.drugs.com/slideshow/deadly-diseases-1248

I think that your comments above make it clear that you also don't understand virology and pathology and epidemiology. Currently the experts in these fields are saying that there has never been another disease identified that exhibits the strange symptoms that are being identified in the in different age groups like this one does. They also have never seen another disease that it is beginning to show signs that there are going to long term effects caused by this Virus. In addition to the facts listed above it is also the most easily transmitted disease, which also has the ability to live outside the human body for such long periods of time, days, weeks or possibly even longer given the right set of conditions. My comments here are not an opinion, they are backed up by actual research currently being done.

Peace

[Grim Reaper 6]

5 minutes ago, 19_Kilo said:

By the way, the burden of proof lies upon those making remarkable and even fantastical claims.

Like 85K deaths. 

You should know this axiom to be true from debating Creationists and biblical literalists.

No the burden of proof lays with the individual who makes a claim that they can't prove. But one thing good has come out of this we can now see clearly how conspiracies start, and how hard people will fight to prove beliefs that are not proven with a factual base. 

Peace 

Edited May 16, 2020 by Manwon Lender

[JackTheManiac]

@19_Kilo

Why are/would those sources incorrect?

https://www.statista.com/statistics/1101932/coronavirus-covid19-cases-and-deaths-number-us-americans/

I am not American, but isn't the CDC your Health Department?

https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/cases-updates/cases-in-us.html

I mean, those sources are assumed to be reliable - so, they would I believe be considered valid in an argument.

 

Edited May 16, 2020 by JackTheManiac