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JackTheManiac

Cognitive process of deniers and nuts

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stereologist

Conspiracy thinking requires someone to deny even the most fundamental facts of a situation. It doesn't matter what it is.

Take flat Earth. People have to deny simple issues such as the Moon looking upside down as you travel between the North and South hemispheres. They can't produce a map that makes sense. They can't show you the ice wall they claim exists.

Anti-vaxxers. They keep moving the goal posts. FIrst it was mercury. Then it was preservatives int he vaccines. Then it ... well now they claim all people are being injured by vaccines and all of the diseases of the elderly are due to vaccines. They can't show any evidence but who needs evidence.

COVID-19. Proclaiming that HCQ works miracles. No study ever has shown that. It doesn't look like it works at all. But these CTers don't need evidence.

Often CT fanatics tell others to connect the dots. They think they see connections in unrelated issues. When others point out that the so-called connections are not connections out comes the typical response:

  • You are a government shill
  • You are a disinfo agent
  • You need to open your mind
  • You are living in fear, in anger, or whatever the emotion du jour is
  • Do your own research
  • Get educated

There are plenty of others which are of course all meaningless.

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Buzz_Light_Year
21 minutes ago, spartan max2 said:

Just to supplement what I was saying.

Who was alive in 1968?

Well if so you already lives threw a pandemic, bird flu.

https://www.cdc.gov/flu/pandemic-resources/1968-pandemic.html

Currently the U.S has lost 85k with Covid (less then 1968) , and the world has lost 300k (less then the 1 million in 1968) our population now is much bigger then in 1968, and I doubt testing was as good back then so the number was probably higher.

Yet in 1968 Woodstock happened. One of the most iconic festivals in music, during a pandemic.

In 1968 how afraid was everyone ?

 

Well first of all Woodstock was in 1969.

1968 was a tumultuous year with two major assassinations, King and Kennedy, TET offensive, riots and demonstrations in major cities with the National Guard running around locked and loaded. Capture of the USS Pueblo and turmoil everywhere. So the Flu pandemic wasn't really on the radar and as a 11 year old at the time I don't even remember it.

Oh and Hippies.

 

 

Hiippies.jpg

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spartan max2
Posted (edited)
11 minutes ago, Buzz_Light_Year said:

Well first of all Woodstock was in 1969.

1968 was a tumultuous year with two major assassinations, King and Kennedy, TET offensive, riots and demonstrations in major cities with the National Guard running around locked and loaded. Capture of the USS Pueblo and turmoil everywhere. So the Flu pandemic wasn't on on the radar and as a 11 year old at the time I don't even remember it.

Oh and Hippies.

 

 

Hiippies.jpg

Yeah was the wrong year. Woodstock 1969

 

https://www.britannica.com/event/1968-flu-pandemic

Quote

global outbreak of influenza that originated in China in July 1968 and lasted until 1969–70.

 

Edited by spartan max2
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Piney

Aristotle's 'Sophistical Refutations'.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sophistical_Refutations

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Peter B
4 hours ago, spartan max2 said:

Just to supplement what I was saying.

Who was alive in 1968-1969?

Well if so, you already lived though a pandemic, bird flu.

The estimated number of deaths was 1 million worldwide and about 100,000 in the United States. 

https://www.cdc.gov/flu/pandemic-resources/1968-pandemic.html

Currently the U.S has lost 85k with Covid (less then 1968) , and the world has lost 300k (less then the 1 million in 1968) our population now is much bigger then in 1968, and I doubt testing was as good back then so the number was probably higher.

Yet in 1969 Woodstock happened. One of the most iconic festivals in music, during a pandemic.

In 1968-1969 how afraid was everyone ?

 

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/factcheck/2020/05/12/fact-check-did-woodstock-take-place-middle-pandemic/3094481001/

Okay, so 100,000 deaths in the USA over a period of 1.5-2 years, in two distinct waves for the Hong Kong flu. So far COVID-19 has killed >80,000 in less than 4 months.

I note that the HK flu was considered to have a low death rate and so was freely allowed to spread through the population.

So not only are the number of COVID-19 deaths closing in on the number of HK flu deaths in less than a quarter of the time, it's happening while seemingly infecting a lot fewer people.

Here in Australia we've had 98 deaths out of just over 7000 recorded cases. That's a death rate of about 1.2%. If COVID-19 spreads through the entire population of the USA with that sort of death rate, you're talking about more than 4 million people being dead. But consider...that 1.2% death rate is occurring in a country where the hospitals haven't been overwhelmed with cases, where doctors haven't had to make decisions about which COVID-19 patients they're going to attempt to save.

If the disease spreads unchecked through the American population then hospitals are going to be quickly overrun with COVID-19 cases, more than the number of available ventilators. At that point the death rate will increase well above 1.2%, meaning a lot more than 4 million dead.

I genuinely hope that doesn't happen, but I genuinely fear that it will. I dare say we'll get the first indications in two weeks time now that the lockdown in being lifted in so many parts of the country.

So I can understand why people who mightn't have been too worried in 1968-69 might be considerably more concerned now.

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spartan max2
Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Peter B said:

Okay, so 100,000 deaths in the USA over a period of 1.5-2 years, in two distinct waves for the Hong Kong flu. So far COVID-19 has killed >80,000 in less than 4 months.

I note that the HK flu was considered to have a low death rate and so was freely allowed to spread through the population.

So not only are the number of COVID-19 deaths closing in on the number of HK flu deaths in less than a quarter of the time, it's happening while seemingly infecting a lot fewer people.

Here in Australia we've had 98 deaths out of just over 7000 recorded cases. That's a death rate of about 1.2%. If COVID-19 spreads through the entire population of the USA with that sort of death rate, you're talking about more than 4 million people being dead. But consider...that 1.2% death rate is occurring in a country where the hospitals haven't been overwhelmed with cases, where doctors haven't had to make decisions about which COVID-19 patients they're going to attempt to save.

If the disease spreads unchecked through the American population then hospitals are going to be quickly overrun with COVID-19 cases, more than the number of available ventilators. At that point the death rate will increase well above 1.2%, meaning a lot more than 4 million dead.

I genuinely hope that doesn't happen, but I genuinely fear that it will. I dare say we'll get the first indications in two weeks time now that the lockdown in being lifted in so many parts of the country.

So I can understand why people who mightn't have been too worried in 1968-69 might be considerably more concerned now.

1.2 percent of recorded cases is the record death rate. Which means out of people tested. Unless Australia is testing everyone, then the death rate is probably less because 30-80 percent of people are asymptomatic (varies based on study) and probably don't bother getting tested, same for mild symptoms people.

The U.S also had 131 million less people in 1968-69.

 

 

 

Edited by spartan max2
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jaylemurph

While I agree that a certain sort if engaged ignorance/naïveté is necessary to explain /how/ conspiridiots work, it doesn’t explain the /why/. 

And the why is laziness. Conspiridiot Joe can parrot conspiracy X and suddenly they Know What’s Really Going On(TM). They “understand” huge complexities of history, economics, and culture without the hard work of actually reading and learning anything. Suddenly, they think their ignorant opinion on medicine or politics is equal to the opinion of an expert, no work required, as if someone who literally cannot string together a sentence in their native language at 40 (or 60 or 80) suddenly has some great insight into international relations. 

—Jaylemurph 

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Manwon Lender
Posted (edited)
9 hours ago, spartan max2 said:

These are all true complications. But statistically they are still, at least currently, shown to be fairly rare complications. 

deleted for context

Edited by Manwon Lender

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Manwon Lender
9 hours ago, spartan max2 said:

These are all true complications. But statistically they are still, at least currently, shown to be fairly rare complications. 

No they are, the reason they haven't been reported more is because they didn't realize that these complications were directly effects of the Coronavirus. There are more than110 cases in the US, over 100 in the UK and the total number world wide is not know because this syndrome has only recently been reported in great detail. But in the US 4 children have died from the condition and currently their are others who are touch and go. 

Links https://www.bbc.com/news/health-52648557 

https://metro.co.uk/2020/05/12/new-york-now-has-100-children-suffering-deadly-covid-19-related-kawasaki-disease-12693774/

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/05/09/health/mysterious-coronavirus-illness-claims-3-children-in-new-york.html

So believe what you want, but over the next month once the figures come in from around the world and across the US this situation is going to be pretty bad

Peace

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Peter B
7 hours ago, spartan max2 said:

1.2 percent of recorded cases is the record death rate. Which means out of people tested. Unless Australia is testing everyone, then the death rate is probably less because 30-80 percent of people are asymptomatic (varies based on study) and probably don't bother getting tested, same for mild symptoms people.

Fair point. But Australia is currently testing around 30,000 people a day, which is triple what it was a month ago. Yet over that time the number of new cases found each day has remained steady at around 20 per day (source https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-03-17/coronavirus-cases-data-reveals-how-covid-19-spreads-in-australia/12060704?nw=0#testsvscases). That suggests to me there are unlikely to be many cases being missed.

Supporting that is a graph from this site (https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-05-13/coronavirus-numbers-worldwide-data-tracking-charts/12107500?nw=0) labelled Cumulative Tests per Confirmed Case. In the case of Australia it's nearly 100 tests per confirmed case, and steadily climbing. By contrast, in the USA and the UK it's somewhere around 8-10, and not really changing. So I'd suggest that means Australia has a good handle on the number of cases in the community, which means in turn we can be pretty certain that the 1.2% death rate is close to the mark.

7 hours ago, spartan max2 said:

The U.S also had 131 million less people in 1968-69.

 

Again, a fair point.

If we scale down COVID-19 deaths in proportion to the USA's 1968 population, it would be ~50,000. So that would be 50,000 deaths in <4 months during a period of lockdown, compared with 100,000 deaths in 1.5-2 years with no lockdown. I'd suggest the comparison still doesn't look good.

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Manwon Lender
On 5/16/2020 at 9:31 PM, spartan max2 said:

Just to supplement what I was saying.

Who was alive in 1968-1969?

Well if so, you already lived though a pandemic, bird flu.

https://www.cdc.gov/flu/pandemic-resources/1968-pandemic.html

Currently the U.S has lost 85k with Covid (less then 1968) , and the world has lost 300k (less then the 1 million in 1968) our population now is much bigger then in 1968, and I doubt testing was as good back then so the number was probably higher.

Yet in 1969 Woodstock happened. One of the most iconic festivals in music, during a pandemic.

In 1968-1969 how afraid was everyone ?

 

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/factcheck/2020/05/12/fact-check-did-woodstock-take-place-middle-pandemic/3094481001/

I was 10 years old in 1968, while I don't exactly remember, I doubt I was afraid, in fact I don't even remember a Pandemic during that time.

Peace

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Manwon Lender
On 5/16/2020 at 9:16 PM, spartan max2 said:

26

Ok thanks for the reply, then you need to pay attention to the following because this is occurring in your age group and along with Middle Aged adults. I truly hope you don't experience this abnormal reaction to this Virus. According to health care professionals this issue occurs, with or without any other symptoms of the Coronavirus and there are few signs that its happening until it does.

Why Is COVID-19 Coronavirus Causing Strokes In Young And Middle-Aged People?

Here is link that explains how and why this Virus is causing this condition to occur in Young Adults and the Middle Aged:

https://www.forbes.com/sites/robertglatter/2020/04/27/why-is-covid-19-coronavirus-causing-strokes-in-young-and-middle-aged-people/#6f9e0bfd34df

https://www.news.com.au/lifestyle/health/health-problems/doctors-warn-coronavirus-causing-blood-clots-and-sudden-strokes-in-young-healthy-patients/news-story/d9d3f775f84783346d10f47229359e9a

Peace

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XenoFish
On 5/16/2020 at 8:40 AM, stereologist said:
  • You need to open your mind
  • You are living in fear, in anger, or whatever the emotion du jour is
  • Do your own research
  • Get educated

This also works with the paranormal crowd.

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Tatetopa
On 5/17/2020 at 2:49 PM, XenoFish said:

This also works with the paranormal crowd.

Or would work as you might say. If only.

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JackTheManiac

I just want to say thanks for your replies, it's been insightful, but I still have issues understanding how this lack of critical thinking is possible. I find this very damn good read:

https://purl.stanford.edu/fv751yt5934?fbclid=IwAR1prv2cA7Yrf_AmVNb2p6UpyCiL6DlaCbv4xu-yCJBbBYW_hKmfGAeqGJk

 

I should avoid falling into these holes because there's no way out... This woman just claimed that "Despite the measles vaccine only being created in 1960, the deaths by parasitic and infectuous diseases have been going down during the 1950s" when a quick research explained that this was the use of new antibiotics during this decade, like penicilin, that contributed... COME ON! It took me 5 minutes to find.

Other moron posted an image where Quebec and Sweden had similar death tolls, around 3500-3600... but when you compare Sweden to Norway, Norway has 325 deaths approx. Norway has a lockdown.

 

 

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stereologist

An important issue is that conspiracies are never wrong. No matter what happens the conspiracy is never wrong.

Take the anti-vaxx movement. They are convinced vaccinations are terrible. When it is shown that there is no more mercury in the vaccines as a preservative they decide it is something other than that. They refuse to give up on their beloved conspiracy. They point to something other than the preservative. They claim it is too many vaccines at once. Point out that this is not true. They move the goal posts again because their beloved conspiracy is never wrong. Now they claim everyone is hurt and all of the diseases of the elderly are due to vaccines. Point out that the rates of these diseases are independent of the vaccines and I'm sure they will continue with their belief that their conspiracy is never wrong.

This same idea of the conspiracy is never wrong can be seen in other conspiracies such as flat-Earth, alt-medicine, Illuminati, Denver International airport, etc.

Unlike science which tests and rejects hypotheses, the conspiracy is never wrong.

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Peter B
4 minutes ago, stereologist said:

An important issue is that conspiracies are never wrong. No matter what happens the conspiracy is never wrong.

Take the anti-vaxx movement. They are convinced vaccinations are terrible. When it is shown that there is no more mercury in the vaccines as a preservative they decide it is something other than that. They refuse to give up on their beloved conspiracy. They point to something other than the preservative. They claim it is too many vaccines at once. Point out that this is not true. They move the goal posts again because their beloved conspiracy is never wrong. Now they claim everyone is hurt and all of the diseases of the elderly are due to vaccines. Point out that the rates of these diseases are independent of the vaccines and I'm sure they will continue with their belief that their conspiracy is never wrong.

This same idea of the conspiracy is never wrong can be seen in other conspiracies such as flat-Earth, alt-medicine, Illuminati, Denver International airport, etc.

Unlike science which tests and rejects hypotheses, the conspiracy is never wrong.

Yep, that's my experience too.

One of my children is deaf. One charming anti-vaxxer helpfully suggested the deafness was caused by vaccines (because apparently every bad thing that happens is caused by vaccines). Yeah, no. Here in Australia all babies have their hearing tested before they leave hospital, and that's when my child's deafness was detected. At that stage only one vaccine had been administered (Hepatitis B I think). The deafness was later confirmed as being genetic.

Another issue is the spectacular lack of internal consistency of many conspiracy theories. There's one Apollo hoax believer whose website contains one section explaining how the Apollo missions were faked, and another section discussing the alien artifacts discovered by the astronauts when they went to the Moon. Even my children sensed the Disturbance In The Force caused by that person's logic...

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Festina
On 5/15/2020 at 6:10 PM, Piney said:

I don't think it's a weakness per se.   I never understood it though.

I scientifically and theologically pulled a Space Jesus cult to pieces with the believers having no answers yet they still believe.  

I can historically pull the Bible apart into bits. Show it's all mostly fallacies. I easily convinced my sister, who's a Zen Buddhist and also a research scientist but American Evangelical will argue in a circle with nonsense. 

The Buddha said question everything.

The  government says to trust in them and their ‘sky daddy’ cuz they ‘love and care for your well being’.  Says so on the money they create out of thin air with an index finger.   They’ll give it to whom they want, but the interest that we pay on the debt (7 trillion or so over the next ten years) gets doled out to their buddies with no promise to pay back and we are not allowed to know who they are; it’s a secret— according to Ben Bernanke. 

What do you say Piney?  Should we trust them?  

 

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Piney
Posted (edited)
28 minutes ago, Festina said:

The Buddha said question everything.

...and believe nobody, not even him. :yes:

Trust the government??? Hell mon ami, you saw my trial accounts!!! :lol:

Edited by Piney
**** Trump
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Festina
Posted (edited)
40 minutes ago, Piney said:

...and believe nobody, not even him. :yes:

Trust the government??? Hell mon ami, you saw my trial accounts!!! :lol:

I did. There is a conspiracy there.  

For you mon ami...:yes:

 

 

AB3FE968-F6BB-48AD-B8A4-EAEE54E6DD1B.jpeg

Edited by Festina
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Piney
Just now, Festina said:

For you mon ami...:yes:

Thank you!

My beat up 75 year old ones are done blooming for the year. :lol:

But I have purple lily of the valley blooming that smell almost like them.  :yes:

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Festina
Posted (edited)
23 minutes ago, Piney said:

Thank you!

My beat up 75 year old ones are done blooming for the year. :lol:

But I have purple lily of the valley blooming that smell almost like them.  :yes:

The pleasure is mine! 

Send me an image.  I’ve never seen a purple lily of the valley. My two favorite flowers!   I snagged some white Lily of the Valley from my grandmothers New York, Queens garden 25 years ago.  Whenever I move I take a bit with me.  Here they are in their new home.  Not impressive but it takes time. 

I don’t plan on ever moving again. 

———

“NO PHOTOS OR VIDEOS AVAILABLE” 

———

I’ll try again later.  I don’t understand why this happens — another Unexplained  Mystery.

 

Success.

D7546EB3-9426-46B3-A99D-6D48A5E51290.jpeg

Edited by Festina

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