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zep73

The following concepts are all things most people are willing to die for. They all share one important property: They are ideas. They do not exist, except in our heads.

Nation - Being in a place long enough to claim it as your own. But it belongs to nobody. It's just a piece of land. 10,000 years ago it belonged to nobody, and in 10,000 years it "belongs" to someone else.
Nationalism - We think we are better than everyone else.
Patriotism - We are proud to be, who we think we are.

Faith - The way I understand the world, is the correct understanding of it. Look for yourself, and see how many, who agree with me!

Money - The value of our work and resources. We used to use symbolic pieces of paper and metal, but nowadays it's just numbers in a computer, and we use a piece of plastic to prove we've got them.

Marriage - Let's make a deal to live together and only to have sex with each other.

 

What are you willing to die for, and can you argue that it is real?

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XenoFish
23 minutes ago, sci-nerd said:

What are you willing to die for, and can you argue that it is real?

Nothing.

I would willingly accept death in the off chance it happens, in the case of protecting people from a psycho. But I wouldn't go at it with the intention of dying.

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Manwon Lender
Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, sci-nerd said:

The following concepts are all things most people are willing to die for. They all share one important property: They are ideas. They do not exist, except in our heads.

Nation - Being in a place long enough to claim it as your own. But it belongs to nobody. It's just a piece of land. 10,000 years ago it belonged to nobody, and in 10,000 years it "belongs" to someone else.
Nationalism - We think we are better than everyone else.
Patriotism - We are proud to be, who we think we are.

Faith - The way I understand the world, is the correct understanding of it. Look for yourself, and see how many, who agree with me!

Money - The value of our work and resources. We used to use symbolic pieces of paper and metal, but nowadays it's just numbers in a computer, and we use a piece of plastic to prove we've got them.

Marriage - Let's make a deal to live together and only to have sex with each other.

 

What are you willing to die for, and can you argue that it is real?

I am willing to die for my beliefs and my family, when I say family I am not only talking about my nuclear family but also those I have served with during my Military Career because in my mind they are family. When I say my beliefs, I am talking about the standards and values that I live by. If someone or something tied to make me change those standards or values, dying to stop that is a sacrifice I would make willingly. 

Peace

Edited by Manwon Lender
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zep73
19 minutes ago, 19_Kilo said:

You forgot "protection of family and loved ones"

No. My OP is about ideas, not family.

19 minutes ago, 19_Kilo said:

But marriage, money, and nations all exist in any manner of thinking.

Yes, but in thinking only.
If a married couple lost their memories, are they still married? Maybe on paper, but not practically.
Money reflects the gold reserves of a nation. That gold is real. The money is just a symbol.
In 100,000 years, all of today's nations are gone. They were not there 100,000 years ago. They are only there now, because we've decided it.

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XenoFish

Sci-Nerd, welcome to nihilism. 

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Piney
Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, sci-nerd said:

Nation - Being in a place long enough to claim it as your own. But it belongs to nobody. It's just a piece of land. 10,000 years ago it belonged to nobody, and in 10,000 years it "belongs" to someone else.

In Native terms it's about being part of a ethnicity and the term "tribe" isn't really correct. The "tribe" isn't in the German or Celtic sense but is actually considered an "extended family" unit.

But since I have absolutely no loyalty to them whatsoever, including my father and half sisters it doesn't matter......... 

Edited by Piney
Where's the red paint?
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zep73
8 minutes ago, Piney said:

In Native terms it's about being part of a ethnicity and the term "tribe" isn't really correct. The "tribe" isn't in the German or Celtic sense but is actually considered a " extended family" unit.

But since I have absolutely no loyalty to them whatsoever, including my father and half sisters it doesn't matter......... 

I'm sorry to hear that. It may give you a huge amount of personal space and freedom, but it must also leave you with a sense of something missing.

Family is really all we have. Whether it's biological or not. Someone to trust. Someone to protect. Someone to share a history with.
I have 5 such people. My 3 kids and my 2 sisters.
When my dad died in 2016, I asked to be excused from the funeral. I hate those things. My sister said: I need you there, so be there, or stay away for good. I could not say no to that.

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Piney
Just now, sci-nerd said:

I'm sorry to hear that. It may give you a huge amount of personal space and freedom, but it must also leave you with a sense of something missing.

Family is really all we have. Whether it's biological or not. Someone to trust. Someone to protect. Someone to share a history with.
I have 5 such people. My 3 kids and my 2 sisters.
When my dad died in 2016, I asked to be excused from the funeral. I hate those things. My sister said: I need you there, so be there, or stay away for good. I could not say no to that.

I have a stepmother, stepsisters, stepchildren and grandchildren I'm all tight with. 

And I didn't know my father and his daughters until I was 30. He abandoned my mother after a one night stand. 

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zep73
7 minutes ago, Piney said:

I have a stepmother, stepsisters, stepchildren and grandchildren I'm all tight with. 

And I didn't know my father and his daughters until I was 30. He abandoned my mother after a one night stand. 

Glad to hear you're not alone!

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Horta
9 hours ago, sci-nerd said:

The following concepts are all things most people are willing to die for. They all share one important property: They are ideas. They do not exist, except in our heads.

Nation - Being in a place long enough to claim it as your own. But it belongs to nobody. It's just a piece of land. 10,000 years ago it belonged to nobody, and in 10,000 years it "belongs" to someone else.
Nationalism - We think we are better than everyone else.
Patriotism - We are proud to be, who we think we are.

Faith - The way I understand the world, is the correct understanding of it. Look for yourself, and see how many, who agree with me!

Money - The value of our work and resources. We used to use symbolic pieces of paper and metal, but nowadays it's just numbers in a computer, and we use a piece of plastic to prove we've got them.

Marriage - Let's make a deal to live together and only to have sex with each other.

 

What are you willing to die for, and can you argue that it is real?

None of them, I wouldn't think.

Marriage is a cultural relic anyway IMO. If two people want to make a commitment to each other, that's between them. Not sure of the need for a "licence" and all of the bs associated with it.

Money is a necessity because of the way society is constructed. Isn't real, but it's certainly useful.

Faith, depending on exact definition, can be difficult (if not impossible) to escape.

Patriotism and nationalism are forms of mental illness.

I agree that nation doesn't exist in reality. It's a concept dreamed up by a very "tribal" species of tailless monkey. It might go the way of the dodo anyway, eventually.

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Horta
8 hours ago, sci-nerd said:

Money reflects the gold reserves of a nation. That gold is real. The money is just a symbol.

It used to, anyway.

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DieChecker

I'd tend to agree with Piney and 19_Kilo. "Family" is just a very small form of Nation. I'd kill, or die, for my extended family.

I'd give necessary organs, that would end my life, if it would save any of my kids. I also would have jumped on a grenade for my Army squad mates.

Money... no. Patriotism... kill maybe, but not knowingly die. Science... no. Faith... maybe. Would depend on circumstances. I'd not want to die for something that was just openly stupid.

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third_eye

I only "die" for one thing and only one thing, that is "death"

~

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Rlyeh
14 hours ago, sci-nerd said:

Nation - Being in a place long enough to claim it as your own. But it belongs to nobody. It's just a piece of land. 10,000 years ago it belonged to nobody, and in 10,000 years it "belongs" to someone else.

That pretty much goes for everything you own.

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Desertrat56
17 hours ago, sci-nerd said:

The following concepts are all things most people are willing to die for. They all share one important property: They are ideas. They do not exist, except in our heads.

Nation - Being in a place long enough to claim it as your own. But it belongs to nobody. It's just a piece of land. 10,000 years ago it belonged to nobody, and in 10,000 years it "belongs" to someone else.
Nationalism - We think we are better than everyone else.
Patriotism - We are proud to be, who we think we are.

Faith - The way I understand the world, is the correct understanding of it. Look for yourself, and see how many, who agree with me!

Money - The value of our work and resources. We used to use symbolic pieces of paper and metal, but nowadays it's just numbers in a computer, and we use a piece of plastic to prove we've got them.

Marriage - Let's make a deal to live together and only to have sex with each other.

 

What are you willing to die for, and can you argue that it is real?

None of what you listed.  I am willing to die for my children and grand children, who are very real.  I already know this is true because of a few incidents in my life.  I won't hesitate.

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simplybill
19 hours ago, sci-nerd said:

The following concepts are all things most people are willing to die for. They all share one important property: They are ideas. They do not exist, except in our heads.

Nation - Being in a place long enough to claim it as your own. But it belongs to nobody. It's just a piece of land. 10,000 years ago it belonged to nobody, and in 10,000 years it "belongs" to someone else.
Nationalism - We think we are better than everyone else.
Patriotism - We are proud to be, who we think we are.

Faith - The way I understand the world, is the correct understanding of it. Look for yourself, and see how many, who agree with me!

Money - The value of our work and resources. We used to use symbolic pieces of paper and metal, but nowadays it's just numbers in a computer, and we use a piece of plastic to prove we've got them.

Marriage - Let's make a deal to live together and only to have sex with each other.

What are you willing to die for, and can you argue that it is real?

 Describing those categories as ‘ideas’ demeans their importance, IMO. Each of those categories (aside from money) is the result of ideas that have led to ideologies, which are the foundation of society. Definition of ideologies:

“The body of doctrine, myth, belief, etc., that guides an individual, social movement, institution, class, or large group.”

https://www.dictionary.com/browse/ideology

If the collective ideas are actually worthy of upholding, then they should be defended. 

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zep73
10 hours ago, Horta said:

It used to, anyway.

Yeah, a lot has changed since I had social studies in school. You only get 30 minutes to discover your errors in a post, and I saw it too late.

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zep73
3 minutes ago, simplybill said:

If the collective ideas are actually worthy of upholding, then they should be defended.

What I find interesting is the essence, or root, of everything we find important, and what they really are, if we peel away all the hype.
It's a deeply philosophical discussion, and it's not meant to insult anyone.

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zep73
6 hours ago, Rlyeh said:

That pretty much goes for everything you own.

Yes, maybe I should have included the concept of ownership. Something that is both unnatural and arrogant, seen from nature's perspective.

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Cookie Monster
20 hours ago, sci-nerd said:

The following concepts are all things most people are willing to die for. They all share one important property: They are ideas. They do not exist, except in our heads.

Nation - Being in a place long enough to claim it as your own. But it belongs to nobody. It's just a piece of land. 10,000 years ago it belonged to nobody, and in 10,000 years it "belongs" to someone else.
Nationalism - We think we are better than everyone else.
Patriotism - We are proud to be, who we think we are.

Faith - The way I understand the world, is the correct understanding of it. Look for yourself, and see how many, who agree with me!

Money - The value of our work and resources. We used to use symbolic pieces of paper and metal, but nowadays it's just numbers in a computer, and we use a piece of plastic to prove we've got them.

Marriage - Let's make a deal to live together and only to have sex with each other.

What are you willing to die for, and can you argue that it is real?

Maslow`s Hierarchy of Needs: https://www.thoughtco.com/maslows-hierarchy-of-needs-4582571

That is a simple explanation and doesnt include everything that belongs to each level. With the Love and Belonging it includes identity and belonging.

Those are evolved human needs and they are expressed with national culture, national identity, and being with your own kind. So, in response to your post its about more than ideas. Its about people seeking ways to satisfy their psychological needs. With self-actualisation that is not only yourself living up to your full potential, but your people too. Because if your nation is a great country, with great people, then you are great too.

Sex belongs in Love and Belonging in addition to intimacy (the need to get married), and money belongs to both physiological and safety needs. Physiological needs are short-term survival needs so you need money to feed and cloth yourself. Safety needs are about securing your resources long-term so you can meet your long-term survival needs. That means having money to put a roof over your head as well as some others.

Faith belongs in self-actualisation where you try to be the most moral person you are capable of being.

You are battling against human nature I`m afraid, not mere ideas.

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zep73
2 minutes ago, Cookie Monster said:

You are battling against human nature I`m afraid, not mere ideas.

What makes you think I'm battling?
I'm merely pointing out what those things really are. How much we need them, is not the intended target of this discussion.

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Cookie Monster
3 minutes ago, sci-nerd said:

What makes you think I'm battling?
I'm merely pointing out what those things really are. How much we need them, is not the intended target of this discussion.

I`m just contributing, if you arent battling then you arent battling.

The hierarchy of needs sets out what our psychological needs are and they drive human behaviour.

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Horta
On 5/19/2020 at 4:06 AM, Cookie Monster said:

I`m just contributing, if you arent battling then you arent battling.

The hierarchy of needs sets out what our psychological needs are and they drive human behaviour.

They don't drive all human behaviour though. Perhaps they could be considered accurate in a very generalised way, yet some people definitely aren't strictly driven behaviourally by this hierarchy. Some people knowingly drink themselves to an early end, some simply would prefer not to reproduce, others take on "thrill seeking" pastimes where lack of personal security is the point...and so on.

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Horta

Not sure this group were inspired by Maslow's hierarchy of needs lol.

http://www.vhemt.org/

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Cookie Monster
4 hours ago, Horta said:

They don't drive all human behaviour though. Perhaps they could be considered accurate in a very generalised way, yet some people definitely aren't strictly driven behaviourally by this hierarchy. Some people knowingly drink themselves to an early end, some simply would prefer not to reproduce, others take on "thrill seeking" pastimes where lack of personal security is the point...and so on.

I`m going to interpret that as the psychological need to avoid pain, which is indeed missing from it.

Its a good theory that captures most human needs though.

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