Enablers

[XenoFish]

I don't recall mentioning people's age. 

[Grim Reaper 6]

1 hour ago, XenoFish said:

In regards to my mental state, I sure as hell know what suicidal depression felt like. It's hard to talk about a dark place if you haven't been there. 

With regards to these comments, if you ever need to openly speak about this send me a Pm. I would bet you have a lot that you could share on how to deal with this situation. I may also have some useful ways I have found that could possible help you, but at the very least for me it's just good to get things off you chest, and talking about this with someone else who understands is certainly is a plus.

Peace

[Dejarma]

1 hour ago, XenoFish said:

La dee freaking dah cowboy. I posted a very simple question in my opening post. Others have been good enough to know exactly what I was asking. Why is it so difficult for you? And if you have that much of a problem, move on. You have yet to answered my OP. Basically you're not offering anything on topic except criticizing me for asking a few freaking questions.  

you always get one (or more) that get stroppy & start throwing a hissy fit... i get what you mean- it's a good thread, XF

[Horta]

5 hours ago, XenoFish said:

Something I've noticed over the years is that there are folk who are more than willing to enable another persons delusions.

Why do they do this? 

Do they think they're helping someone?

What would be the point of enabling another persons delusions?

Let's say for example Aunt June is "talking to ghosts."

Person A : You might need to see a doctor Aunt June.

Person B: You are totally connected with the spirit world.

One helps and the other feeds the fantasy. 

 

I think sci-nerd nailed it. Seems obvious people are either validating their belief.

There are situations where it would seem cruel to go against it though, and where its probably better not to say too much. When old gran gets a random visit from newly departed grandpa for instance. That is unlikely to be anything other than a common part of the process (and possibly healthy). Generally if you are seeing things that aren't really there, it indicates a problem of some sort.

[Horta]

ps. I doubt that having an experience with ghosts (or bigfoot or whatever) is necessarily indicative of psychological problems either. Perhaps if it is ongoing it could be a problem, but in the right circumstances this could happen to anyone IMO.

[XenoFish]

8 hours ago, Horta said:

ps. I doubt that having an experience with ghosts (or bigfoot or whatever) is necessarily indicative of psychological problems either. Perhaps if it is ongoing it could be a problem, but in the right circumstances this could happen to anyone IMO.

If someone is claiming to converse with ghost, either they're fooling people, full of it, or not quite on center. 

[Horta]

1 hour ago, XenoFish said:

If someone is claiming to converse with ghost, either they're fooling people, full of it, or not quite on center. 

That's somewhat blinkered though in that it leaves no room for the possibility that a normal honest person could have such an experience. 

No doubt some people might be charlatans, psychotic or delusional and need help, but it's unlikely these form the majority. There are an awful lot of ordinary intelligent people who have a paranormal experience they can't explain. For some it makes them believers. Not only ghosts, but all types of experiences, auditory hallucinations are a common one.

Your approach wouldn't necessarily be supported by psychology or psychiatry either. It certainly isn't supported by neuroscience.

In many ways this is what causes the divide. Both sides believe seeing or otherwise experiencing things that don't exist outside of the mind requires insanity. Therefore to non believers the believers are necessarily "nutty". To believers ghosts are real because they have seen one and know they are not "nutty". Both of them are wrong IMO.

 

Edited May 20, 2020 by Horta

[XenoFish]

3 minutes ago, Horta said:

That's somewhat blinkered though in that it leaves no room for the possibility that a normal honest person could have such an experience. 

No doubt some people might be charlatans, psychotic or delusional and need help, but it's unlikely these form the majority. There are an awful lot of ordinary intelligent people who have a paranormal experience they can't explain. For some it makes them believers. Not only ghosts, but all types of experiences, auditory hallucinations are a common one.

Your approach wouldn't necessarily be supported by psychology or psychiatry either. It certainly isn't supported by neuroscience.

In many ways this is what causes the divide. Both sides believe seeing or otherwise experiencing things that don't exist outside of the mind requires insanity. Therefore to non believers the believers are necessarily "nutty". To believers ghosts are real because they have seen one and know they are not "nutty". Both of them are wrong IMO.

 

So talking to imaginary beings is "sane"? 

[Horta]

Just now, XenoFish said:

So talking to imaginary beings is "sane"? 

Quite the strawman that one Xeno. Experiences with ghosts (or whatever) come in lots of different ways.

[Horta]

You don't have to have afternoon tea with Casper the friendly ghost every other day to have had an "otherworldly experience", and be convinced by it.

People who have no paranormal/magical beliefs (I don't, it doesn't seem convincing) are by far in the minority. Therefore we would be "abnormal" in any real sense.

[XenoFish]

8 minutes ago, Horta said:

Quite the strawman that one Xeno. Experiences with ghosts (or whatever) come in lots of different ways.

It is a question. I'm just wonder how 'sane' it is for someone to converse with a ghost and apparently have a 2 way conversation.

[Horta]

Just now, XenoFish said:

It is a question. I'm just wonder how 'sane' it is for someone to converse with a ghost and apparently have a 2 way conversation.

Would depend on the circumstances and the experience itself I guess. Happens a lot with Jesus. If it's a regular occurrence it doesn't sound good. Then again "talk to" can mean different things to different people. Such as the people who talk telepathically, including the charlatans who talk to the "other side" to separate people from their money. A lot of them seem genuinely deluded, but insane?

 

[XenoFish]

Just now, Horta said:

Would depend on the circumstances and the experience itself I guess. Happens a lot with Jesus. If it's a regular occurrence it doesn't sound good. Then again "talk to" can mean different things to different people. Such as the people who talk telepathically, including the charlatans who talk to the "other side" to separate people from their money. A lot of them seem genuinely deluded, but insane?

 

There isn't much difference in my eyes between deluded and insane. 

[Horta]

Just now, XenoFish said:

There isn't much difference in my eyes between deluded and insane. 

It's unlikely there is anyone who hasn't suffered delusion of some sort. The funny thing with delusions, is you don't know they are a delusion, or it wouldn't be one lol.

I think humans are crazy. Some more than others obviously. We have an imaginary ideal in our head of what a "normal human" is... and then there is reality.

[XenoFish]

Just now, Horta said:

It's unlikely there is anyone who hasn't suffered delusion of some sort. The funny thing with delusions, is you don't know they are a delusion, or it wouldn't be one lol.

I think humans are crazy. Some more than others obviously. We have an imaginary ideal in our head of what a "normal human" is... and then there is reality.

Almost sounds like there is no such thing as mental illness. We're all crazy, so no holds barred. No one is insane because we're all insane. 

[Horta]

2 minutes ago, XenoFish said:

Almost sounds like there is no such thing as mental illness. We're all crazy, so no holds barred. No one is insane because we're all insane. 

No, it's considered mental illness when it has certain other effects, such as negative impact on quality of life, suffering etc.

Apart from that, this is one big mental asylum IMO.

[XenoFish]

8 minutes ago, Horta said:

No, it's considered mental illness when it has certain other effects, such as negative impact on quality of life, suffering etc.

Which is pretty much what I'm getting at. It's the reason I asked "why people enable it". 

You get people who claim god talks to them and someone will validate it. 

A person claims to be attacked by demons, someone will validate it.

They see a ghost, someone will feed that person's fear.

There are those who validate "psychic". 

Pretty much giving a big thumbs up to a negative. 

[moonman]

I've always imagined they do it to confirm their own head nonsense. If they can convince someone else of something crazy they believe in, it makes it more "real" for themselves.

Just like religion, politics, conspiracies, etc.

Edited May 20, 2020 by moonman

[Horta]

43 minutes ago, XenoFish said:

Which is pretty much what I'm getting at. It's the reason I asked "why people enable it". 

You get people who claim god talks to them and someone will validate it. 

A person claims to be attacked by demons, someone will validate it.

They see a ghost, someone will feed that person's fear.

There are those who validate "psychic". 

Pretty much giving a big thumbs up to a negative. 

To confirm their own beliefs. No need for critical thinking if it makes you feel good.

If being irrational = insane, we could all be considered insane (depending how you define it, we probably are). Look how many people believe in an invisible all powerful fairy in the sky to begin with.

 

[XenoFish]

3 minutes ago, Horta said:

To confirm their own beliefs. No need for critical thinking if it makes you feel good.

If being irrational = insane, we could all be considered insane (depending how you define it, we probably are). Look how many people believe in an invisible all powerful fairy in the sky to begin with.

 

They also believe the magic man in the sky grants request, which is just confirmation bias on some level. 

[Festina]

18 hours ago, XenoFish said:

Something I've noticed over the years is that there are folk who are more than willing to enable another persons delusions.

Why do they do this? 

Do they think they're helping someone?

What would be the point of enabling another persons delusions?

Let's say for example Aunt June is "talking to ghosts."

Person A : You might need to see a doctor Aunt June.

Person B: You are totally connected with the spirit world.

One helps and the other feeds the fantasy. 

 

 

Fantasy?  This world and it’s mischievous machinations are a manifested fantasy. A deadly one. 

Why do you care so much about peoples harmless personal anomalous experiences?  They are not hurting anyone.  Lying thieving Politicians, corporate heads, religious leaders, clergy of all the religions in general, the controllers of media and all of their delusions are far more worthy of critique as they do much harm. 

Perhaps you’d like to be King of the world?  

 

 

 

Edited May 20, 2020 by Festina

[XenoFish]

19 hours ago, Festina said:

Fantasy?  This world and it’s mischievous machinations are a fantasy. A deadly one. 

Why do you care so much about peoples harmless personal anomalous experiences?  They are not hurting anyone.  Lying thieving Politicians, corporate heads, religious leaders, clergy of all the religions in general, the controllers of media and all of their delusions are far more worthy of critique as they do much harm. 

Perhaps you’d like to be King of the world?  

Thanks for your example. 

[micahc]

Humans for some reason have developed magical thinking.  not sure what the evolutional advantage is. I also don't know at what point it crosses over from magical thinking to mental illness. I am thinking magical thinking was the precursor to religion.  perhaps if you followed the group magical thinking, myth, religion you were allowed to mate, or you were protected by the group.  I have always wondered. so when the elders told us not to go over the mountain, we increased our survival by going along.  eventually we did go over the mountain, so I am sure the command changed but it always was a method of control but also of group cohesion. I think we have evolved way beyond those needs, but its still part of our brains.  as an atheist I would like to think I no longer have magical thinking, but when I yell come on just let me win the lottery once, not sure who I am yelling to. must be something or someone.  its like an incantation I guess.

Edited May 20, 2020 by micahc

[hereticspl]

On 5/20/2020 at 7:39 AM, XenoFish said:

Something I've noticed over the years is that there are folk who are more than willing to enable another persons delusions.

Why do they do this? 

Do they think they're helping someone?

What would be the point of enabling another persons delusions?

Let's say for example Aunt June is "talking to ghosts."

Person A : You might need to see a doctor Aunt June.

Person B: You are totally connected with the spirit world.

One helps and the other feeds the fantasy. 

 

The difficult part is accepting that you have to let people be wrong. You and I both know that shes not talking to spirits, but shes not causing any real harm to anyone else. I know you want to help and tell people the truth but some people just dont want the truth.

[XenoFish]

Just now, hereticspl said:

The difficult part is accepting that you have to let people be wrong. You and I both know that shes not talking to spirits, but shes not causing any real harm to anyone else. I know you want to help and tell people the truth but some people just dont want the truth.

While they might not want the truth, is there really a need to feed such a belief?

I can understand playing a role with someone who has alzheimer's. I've had to do this myself. One of the neighbors across from my parents developed it, lost himself (this was mid 1990's so I was a teen). Thought I was his brother (his brother died in WW2), he reverted back to being a kid mentally.....he was a good man. So that I can understand.