FAQ about God vs no god

[zep73]

The purpose of this thread is to be a bridge between believer and atheist. A place to ask questions about key issues on each side.

One side asks, the other answers.

The nature of this thread makes it in high risk of being derailed by opponents from both sides, so I ask you all kindly to respect each other, and stick to the ask / answer purpose of this thread.

[zep73]

I will start out by asking @papageorge1 about Brahman - the Hindi super-god

Questions:

Why did Brahman make the universe so mindblowingly huge, when a lot less would have been more than enough?
Why did he make it cold, toxic and hostile to all living things? The radiation alone is so lethal, that it bares the trademarks of a malevolent creator - if any!
Why did it take 13.8 billion years to get to the point?
Why quantum mechanics? Other religions doesn't even bother to address this. Does yours?

[XenoFish]

18 minutes ago, sci-nerd said:

The purpose of this thread is to be a bridge between believer and atheist. A place to ask questions about key issues on each side.

One side asks, the other answers.

The nature of this thread makes it in high risk of being derailed by opponents from both sides, so I ask you all kindly to respect each other, and stick to the ask / answer purpose of this thread.

God is an idea, use with caution. 

[spartan max2]

My question is to any pagan UM members.

As a "pagan" do you actually believe it multiple God's, God , afterlife, etc. 

Or are you actually atheist but just philosophically and culturally follow paganism?

Edited May 24, 2020 by spartan max2

[papageorge1]

10 minutes ago, sci-nerd said:

I will start out by asking @papageorge1 about Brahman - the Hindi super-god

Let's start with the Wikipedia definition of Brahman: Brahman connotes the highest Universal Principle, the Ultimate Reality in the universe. In major schools of Hindu philosophy, it is the material, efficient, formal and final cause of all that exists. It is the pervasive, infinite, eternal truth and bliss which does not change, yet is the cause of all changes.  

Another way of looking at Brahman is Pure Infinite Consciousness.

These concepts are not grasped quickly.

14 minutes ago, sci-nerd said:

Why did Brahman make the universe so mindblowingly huge, when a lot less would have been more than enough?

What can be mind-blowingly huge to infinite consciousness?

16 minutes ago, sci-nerd said:

 

Why did he make it cold, toxic and hostile to all living things? The radiation alone is so lethal, that it bares the trademarks of a malevolent creator - if any!
 

The planes and dimensions of the universe are teeming with various life forms. We tend to think of earthly physical life forms as 'life' but it is only one form of life and perhaps even a rare form (biological life like earth's). The universe has things going on beyond our comprehension.

21 minutes ago, sci-nerd said:

Why quantum mechanics? Other religions doesn't even bother to address this. Does yours?

Well the details of the operation of the universe are still a mystery to our rational minds. Just a thought on Quantum Mechanics. Quantum Mechanics looks mysterious to us as it is involves activity in dimensions we can not directly detect so, to us, it seems mysterious.

[Piney]

22 minutes ago, sci-nerd said:

I will start out by asking @papageorge1 about Brahman - the Hindi super-god

In Hindu theology Brahman is the same as the Chinese "Tien", the Turkic Mongolian "Tengri", the Eastern Iranian (Scythian) / Sogdian "Xucau", the Japanese Shinto "Amenominakanushi" or the Lenape Kiitaanituuwit.

It basically a "Living Universe" which contains a undetectable spiritual energy and we are inconsequential in it. 

[papageorge1]

4 minutes ago, Piney said:

It basically a "Living Universe" which contains a undetectable spiritual energy and we are inconsequential in it. 

To clarify the Vedic/Brahman understanding; Our consciousness is a spark of eternal Brahman (Atma). We are eternal consciousness. 

[Piney]

@sci-nerd  

A interesting thing about the Proto-Indo European creator "Dyeus Piter", is it wasn't personified and Anthropomorphized until later when it became Zeus, Jupiter, Tiwaz, etc.  In the ancient Indo-Aryan Vedic belief it evolved directly into Brahman

Just now, papageorge1 said:

To clarify the Vedic/Brahman understanding; Our consciousness is a spark of eternal Brahman (Atma). We are eternal consciousness. 

Yes we are all part of it's energy and our consciousness will join with it. 

[micahc]

if you could go back 100 years and 500 years, and 1000 years or 2000 years and ask the same questions, you will most likely get different answers based on the knowledge of the day. if there is one true god and religion, it should never change. truth does not change over time, only knowledge changes over time. religion is made up by people who have no knowledge. so as scientists teach them the accommodate then they curse science.

[spartan max2]

1 minute ago, 19_Kilo said:

You'd have to tell me your definition of "pagan" before I could answer that. Be advised the etymology of the term is not quite the same as how most use it today.

It's whatever your definition is. My question is for whoever self identifies as pagan. 

Edited May 25, 2020 by spartan max2

[spartan max2]

2 minutes ago, 19_Kilo said:

OK. Then, no. I don't ID as a rustic villager who is more of a deistic Nature God worshiper than a theist. Though I far prefer pantheism to monotheism or other poly-theistic beliefs like Hinduism.

Thanks for answering, though I am very confused lol.

What do you believe in detail?

[Piney]

Just now, 19_Kilo said:

Good job on spelling all those words correctly. Especially the "Ameno..." one.

Christ!! I taught "World Religions" part time for 20 years. 

[Piney]

1 minute ago, 19_Kilo said:

That'll do it. Since I doubt even SpellCheck would help ya out on those words!

I did double check the Nihongo (Japanese) term. 

[papageorge1]

5 minutes ago, 19_Kilo said:

So, Papa, you believe in reincarnation? And if so, do we return in this plane? On Earth?  How about transmigration?

Most of us will spend multiple lives in the human system and then move on.

As to transmigration, the process is almost always forward meaning a human will not descend to a less sophisticated life form. Interesting point is that domesticated animals that experience and reciprocate human love can evolve forward into the human state in their next life.

[spartan max2]

5 minutes ago, 19_Kilo said:

Sorry, max, my mistake. My original answer was on another thread. The Reality Tunnel one by Xeno.

Here it is....

 

"I'm a Dawkins-esque atheist. A disbeliever in 95% of paranormal claims. A science disciple. Non-believer in any form of afterlife. And am of the opinion religion has done far more harm throughout history than good. I believe humans are simply another species of animal, no better than most and worse than many. I believe life on Earth here is akin to fungi growing in a Petri dish. I believe the universe is teeming with life and we here on the 3rd rock are, again,  not special, nor among the most intelligent, but are likely middle of the pack in the latter area.

As far as philosophy: I'm a Stoic and epicurean. Life is incredibly short and meaningless, with no destiny or fate or Master Plan, so we should enjoy it to the fullest and entertain any vice we like so long as we don't harm others. I also believe there is no absolute morality.  Gods and religions were invented as emotional selves for our fragile emotions and fear of death and inconsequentialness. 

I also believe in high fiber and good scotch and the hanging curveball. LOL. Giving due credit to Crash Davis."

Peace.

Wait. If you don't identify as pagan then why did you answer my question to pagans  lol.

[micahc]

11 minutes ago, 19_Kilo said:

 

As far as philosophy: I'm a Stoic and epicurean. Life is incredibly short and meaningless, with no destiny or fate or Master Plan, so we should enjoy it to the fullest and entertain any vice we like so long as we don't harm others. I also believe there is no absolute morality.  Gods and religions were invented as emotional selves for our fragile emotions and fear of death and inconsequentialness. 

I also believe in high fiber and good scotch and the hanging curveball. LOL. Giving due credit to Crash Davis."

Peace.

I think we humans are cursed with a brain where our ability to ask questions far exceeds our ability to answer them.  My dog loved to ride in my truck. I have no idea if he understood anything about how it works, but if I yelled truck he ran for it.  dogs are truly the supreme being, sorry cat lovers.  my dog always said, I am so happy you are home. My cat always said, where the hell have you been?

As far as scotch, hmmm....maybe.

Edited May 25, 2020 by micahc

[Piney]

6 minutes ago, 19_Kilo said:

Of course ya did, professor. LOL 

This might interest you and @papageorge1 because Hinduism and Zoroastrianism stems from the same source. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/101_Names_of_God

[freetoroam]

2 hours ago, sci-nerd said:

The purpose of this thread is to be a bridge between believer and atheist

As a non believer in god, I can not see a bridge between myself and a believer. Too many differences in how we see certain things. There will always be a big gap which no bridge can fill when one person believes in a god and another does not. 

BUT

I do like a good debate about the subject.

Now who do I address first?

 

[XenoFish]

1 minute ago, freetoroam said:

As a non believer in god, I can not see a bridge between myself and a believer. Too many differences in how we see certain things. There will always be a big gap which no bridge can fill when one person believes in a god and another does not. 

BUT

I do like a good debate about the subject.

Now who do I address first?

 

I wonder if it's more how a person believes in god, rather than the concept of god itself. Even among the non-believers there is a concept of god and what it represents to them. 

[micahc]

7 minutes ago, freetoroam said:

As a non believer in god, I can not see a bridge between myself and a believer. Too many differences in how we see certain things. There will always be a big gap which no bridge can fill when one person believes in a god and another does not. 

BUT

I do like a good debate about the subject.

Now who do I address first?

 

maybe I am wrong, but I think believers are more tolerant of other believers, even if not close to their own, than they are of non believers.  we atheists seem to represent the greatest threat to their psyche.  I once had a coworker. we were good friends at work, but no real out of work friendship.  one day I walked in a discussion of religion and was asked what religion I was. I said I was raised catholic but now I am an atheist.  she immediately said, oh no you are not an atheist, you just mean you are not for organized religion.  lol.  I just smiled and said, sure that's it.  she apparently couldn't accept me as an atheist.  like I said we were not close, but I think if I just said, I am a wiccan or something it would be easier for her.  we atheist are universally despised because we threaten magical thinking which links all religions to some extent.  if I thought magically I am still a candidate for conversion.

[XenoFish]

Let's say for a moment that God does exist (entertain me for a moment). We created archetypes based on what we believe it to be like. Playing a bit of ourselves, our cultures, and various ideas into this concept of what god is. Though it isn't God. Yet, we think this construct is god. So we build religions (which are models of reality) around what we think god wants and needs (making it more or less an extension of ourselves). God of religion isn't God, if God exist. If God does exist there is zero way of knowing because we have nothing to reference from. Which makes it a big "Don't know". 

You could say that through memetic mutation the Christian God isn't the Jewish God or the Muslim God, as it serves a different purpose. Even now the Christian God has mutated into something more or less a symbol of love, peace, and a dopamine rush. While it has its own dualistic nature. God good, devil bad. But in essence it is one and the same. 

Basically, it's what you make of it. As for paganism, that's just making natural forces gods. Or looking at nature as god (a better concept in my humble opinion). Considering we are literally a part of the universe and make of it in some fashion. We are the universe made flesh... make of that what you will. Born from it and to it we shall all return. 

[bison]

I find that many atheists disdain a very traditional, anthropomorphic view of a creator, which is far from a complete conception of the range of theological thinking.  

[XenoFish]

9 minutes ago, bison said:

I find that many atheists disdain a very traditional, anthropomorphic view of a creator, which is far from a complete conception of the range of theological thinking.  

Giving a being with omnipotent power a human persona is a frightening concept. Especially when that concept includes a lot of wrath and anger. 

[XenoFish]

This thread really isn't all that different from my "Finding middle ground" thread I created not to long ago. 

[freetoroam]

I am going to start this very simply;

Question 1:

To the god believers, do you believe your god made hominids?