Looting in Minneapolis

[Sir Wearer of Hats]

9 minutes ago, and then said:

I see.  So you feel their deaths were somehow okay or that once they've been noticed they should no longer be remembered?  Their families will tend to disagree with that.

No, I despair at all deaths - for all our disagreements I thought you’d know that by now - I was attempting to impunge the Democrats by implying that they see the deaths as only worthy as being a stick to beat Trump with.

[RoofGardener]

Can somebody explain something for me ? There is much talk of the Army being called in. However, I thought that was illegal under US law ? (posse comitatus) 

[the13bats]

https://www.foxnews.com/media/dr-michael-baden-george-floyd-autopsy-report  https://www.foxnews.com/media/dr-michael-baden-george-floyd-autopsy-report

 

[Duke Wellington]

2 minutes ago, the13bats said:

https://www.foxnews.com/media/dr-michael-baden-george-floyd-autopsy-report  https://www.foxnews.com/media/dr-michael-baden-george-floyd-autopsy-report

 

The official autopsy said no asphyxiation, the one the family paid for said it was.

As he is being paid we have to remember he will lean towards his customer.

[the13bats]

1 minute ago, Cookie Monster said:

The official autopsy said no asphyxiation, the one the family paid for said it was.

As he is being paid we have to remember he will lean towards his customer.

Iirc two different docs agreed the cop caused it,

[Duke Wellington]

9 minutes ago, RoofGardener said:

Can somebody explain something for me ? There is much talk of the Army being called in. However, I thought that was illegal under US law ? (posse comitatus) 

The army are allowed to act as police under the law.

Trump needs to pass an emergency act to detain protestors under terrorism if they are looting. Then with the lefties  sweep in, arrest them all under the act, then hold a vote on Congress to give Trump Authoritarian powers (which the democrats cannot vote against as they have all been arrested).

Donald C Trump (C= Caesar)

Edited June 2, 2020 by Cookie Monster

[Kismit]

1 minute ago, Cookie Monster said:

The official autopsy said no asphyxiation, the one the family paid for said it was.

As he is being paid we have to remember he will lean towards his customer.

The original autopsy claimed that death was in part due to restraint, the second autopsy expanded on why that restraint was an issue. I wondered why the police issued autopsy glossed over the restraint part, it was mentioned but not explained, that was the only difference in the autopsies.

[RoofGardener]

4 minutes ago, Kismit said:

The original autopsy claimed that death was in part due to restraint, the second autopsy expanded on why that restraint was an issue. I wondered why the police issued autopsy glossed over the restraint part, it was mentioned but not explained, that was the only difference in the autopsies.

As I read it, the 'official' autopsy put the cause of death down to cardiac arrest, caused by the arrest procedure (kneeling on the neck). 

The private autopsy said Asphyxiation. They are in conflict on that issue. 

However, both autopsies placed the ultimate cause of death on the police restraint. 

[Duke Wellington]

12 minutes ago, Kismit said:

The original autopsy claimed that death was in part due to restraint, the second autopsy expanded on why that restraint was an issue. I wondered why the police issued autopsy glossed over the restraint part, it was mentioned but not explained, that was the only difference in the autopsies.

Yes, the official one said the guy died from heart failure. That is with intoxication and the restraint being factors in causing it.

The one paid for by the family says he died of heart failure caused by asphyxiation. No mention of drugs. But this is a paid for autopsy by the family, not a neutral one by the state.

At trial both will be heard, the jury will attribute weight to each of them, and normally the neutral state one is taken more seriously than the private paid for one. The jury will also have to decide if the guy wouldnt have died if he was healthy and free of drugs. And they will have to decided if from the perspective of the police officer the restraint (which is legal in Minneapolis) was appropriate.

Needless to say when someone has heart issues and is doing cocaine, they are waiting to drop dead. Something which wouldnt be expected to kill them, could kill them. And if it does then that isn't manslaughter.

Edited June 2, 2020 by Cookie Monster

[Duke Wellington]

1 minute ago, RoofGardener said:

As I read it, the 'official' autopsy put the cause of death down to cardiac arrest, caused by the arrest procedure (kneeling on the neck). 

The private autopsy said Asphyxiation. They are in conflict on that issue. 

However, both autopsies placed the ultimate cause of death on the police restraint. 

And the official one says potential intoxicants were in his system, but the tests haven't come back to tell us which ones yet.

But the guy has been to prison twice for cocaine possession so I think its likely that.

[+and-then]

30 minutes ago, Manwon Lender said:

I am surprised you finally admitted it, but I am glad you understand that thousands are dead because of the Presidents lack of support to New York in the cities time of need. I think if I was him I would also be embarrassed to show my face, so I guess I can understand why he is hiding in his bunker. How sad, how very very sad!!

Peace

I said nothing of the sort, Manwon and you know that.  Those who died in those nursing homes did so directly because an order by Democrat governors in Illinois, New York and Michigan (IIRC) made accepting covid patients mandatory. 

Do you plan to acknowledge my question about when you would agree that the president should take action to restore order?  Is there any point where you'd think he was justified?

[RoofGardener]

10 minutes ago, Cookie Monster said:

The army are allowed to act as police under the law.

Trump needs to pass an emergency act to detain protestors under terrorism if they are looting. Then with the lefties  sweep in, arrest them all under the act, then hold a vote on Congress to give Trump Authoritarian powers (which the democrats cannot vote against as they have all been arrested).

Donald C Trump (C= Caesar)

Hmm.. but regular troopers aren't trained as policemen ? 

I guess they could use military police, but even THEY aren't trained in the same way as regular policemen. 

[Duke Wellington]

1 minute ago, RoofGardener said:

Hmm.. but regular troopers aren't trained as policemen ? 

I guess they could use military police, but even THEY aren't trained in the same way as regular policemen. 

The army do practice for civil disturbances.

Those officers will be directing the troopers, and if they dont have enough brass then I`m sure the boots will be put under police control instead.

Edited June 2, 2020 by Cookie Monster

[RoofGardener]

16 hours ago, Setton said:

He knelt on the victim's neck for 3 minutes after his pulse stopped. What is that if not intent to kill?

That is for a court to decide ? 

11 hours ago, the13bats said:

So im i correct to assume that things are completely out of control seeing trump has hunkered down in a WH basement bunker, i am thinking hes scared or he wouldnt be hiding out.

 

9 hours ago, micahc said:

Trump is trying to sound tough, then he will run back to his bunker.  I think it's the bone spurs.  We told you a Trump Presidency will be the Chaos President. In fact so did many republicans before they drank the kool aid.  Hopefully we will still be a country when Joe takes over and we can hold the traitors accountable.

It's normally the Secret Service who decide if the President should be evacuated into the bunker, not the President. At the point that they did this, there was a reasonable possibility that rioters could storm the White House. 

[Ironside]

5 minutes ago, Cookie Monster said:

Yes, the official one said the guy died from heart failure. That is with intoxication and the restraint being factors in causing it.

The one paid for by the family says he died of heart failure caused by asphyxiation. No mention of drugs. But this is a paid for autopsy by the family, not a neutral one by the state.

At trial both will be heard, the jury will attribute weight to each of them, and normally the neutral state one is taken more seriously than the private paid for one. The jury will also have to decide if the guy wouldnt have died if he was healthy and free of drugs. And they will have to decided if from the perspective of the police officer the restraint (which is legal in Minneapolis) was appropriate.

Needless to say when someone has heart issues and is doing cocaine, they are waiting to drop dead. Something which wouldnt be expected to kill them, could kill them. And if it does that isn't manslaughter.

Isn't every death technically caused by heart failure?

[Ironside]

"cardiopulmonary arrest complicating law enforcement subdual restraint, and neck compression".

[Sir Wearer of Hats]

19 minutes ago, Cookie Monster said:

The official autopsy said no asphyxiation, the one the family paid for said it was.

As he is being paid we have to remember he will lean towards his customer.

Conversely, the coroner who workswith the police will lean towards the police.

[Setton]

5 minutes ago, RoofGardener said:

That is for a court to decide ? 

Which is why he's being charged with murder.

Despite @Cookie Monster 's claim, completely unsupported by any legal entity, that he shouldn't be charged with murder.

[bee]

51 minutes ago, and then said:

A show of force that is understood to be real is all it takes to make cowards scatter.  If anyone takes a shot at troops and they return fire we will see an absolute Leftist gore orgasm.  I think they'll be surprised at the majority reaction if a violent protester or looter kills a soldier.  It won't surprise me if those funding and coordinating this attempt to escalate an exchange of fire against protesters.

 

they definitely want an escalation - but I suppose they need to keep their little proxy army of violent protesters and looters and useful idiots under some kind of restraint because they don't want them to shoot first - but probably hope that at some point some of THEM get shot so they can ramp it all up to the next level...

in a country with so many guns it's amazing that there hasn't been an escalation in that direction............ yet........

???

 

 

[Unusual Tournament]

3 minutes ago, Sir Wearer of Hats said:

Conversely, the coroner who workswith the police will lean towards the police.

Medical examiner and family-commissioned autopsy agree: George Floyd's death was a homicide

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2020/06/01/george-floyd-independent-autopsy-findings-released-monday/5307185002/

[Duke Wellington]

Just now, RoofGardener said:

That is for a court to decide ? 

It's normally the Secret Service who decide if the President should be evacuated into the bunker, not the President. At the point that they did this, there was a reasonable possibility that rioters could storm the White House. 

In the video it can be seen that the cop isn't kneeling on his windpipe, therefore it cannot be asphyxiation.

Thankfully at a trial in the US, autopsy reports are allowed to be questioned and criticised. Weight to also attributed to then depending on where they come from. A paid for private autopsy is normally looked upon as unreliable due to a conflict of interest with the customer who paid.

The official autopsy said heart failure not asphyxiation. At trial the prosecution will have to show that the heart failure was caused by the knee on his neck, and the knee on his neck alone. Heart disease and intoxication complicate the matter. They will need to discredit both of them as the cause of death, or show they were insignificant enough not to have been the main factor causing his death.

I predict the prosecution will lose the murder case. I say that because the heart disease and intoxication introduce significant doubt into their case against the defendant, and therefore the judge will instruct the jury to return a not guilty verdict as any  conviction would be unsafe. But I will also predict the family of George Floyd will win a private prosecution against the police force in Minneapolis for the practices of their police force. Less burden of proof is required in non-criminal cases.

And finally I predict the sacked officer will also win a pay out for wrongful dismissal, wrongful arrest, and for the emotional stress going through a trial.

[Unusual Tournament]

18 minutes ago, RoofGardener said:

Hmm.. but regular troopers aren't trained as policemen ? 

I guess they could use military police, but even THEY aren't trained in the same way as regular policemen. 

Don't buy into Trump's Illusions of Grandeur. The army leadership can think for themselves and have a different interpretation of what their job description entails. They're not Trump's pretorian guard.  They'll deploy but if Trump thinks they'll beat and fire on protestors he has another thing coming. In fact Trump better be careful if he deploys the army because if they fail to move on demonstrators and looters... well thats a vote of no confidence that will draw bipartisan support in both houses and Trump will be forced to resigned. 

Edited June 2, 2020 by Captain Risky

[Duke Wellington]

11 minutes ago, Ironside said:

Isn't every death technically caused by heart failure?

When at autopsy they open up the lungs and look inside.

Asphyxiation causes trauma there. When there arent any signs of that trauma, or there is a limited amount of trauma not to cause death, then the cause of death is not asphyxiation.

The cops knee restricted blood flow to the guys brain, but he had heart disease and drugs in his system making it worse. The question at trial will be if the had no heart disease and was clean, would that restriction have been enough to kill him?

[Unusual Tournament]

1 minute ago, Cookie Monster said:

When at autopsy they open up the lungs and look inside.

Asphyxiation causes trauma there. When there arent any signs of that trauma, or there is a limited amount of trauma not to cause death, then the cause of death is not asphyxiation.

The cops knee restricted blood flow to the guys brain, but he had heart disease and drugs in his system making it worse. The question at trial will be if the had no heart disease and was clean, would that restriction have been enough to kill him?

...and the pressure on the back collapsed the lungs. 

[Unusual Tournament]

41 minutes ago, RoofGardener said:

Can somebody explain something for me ? There is much talk of the Army being called in. However, I thought that was illegal under US law ? (posse comitatus) 

IMO deploying the army on American soil is not illegal but by definition a prelude to civil war.