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spartan max2

BLM Defund the Police Movement

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spartan max2
Posted (edited)

I keep seeing this pop up around the country and on threads so I decided to make a thread about it.

What Defund the Police Movement is is wanting to decrease the police department's budget and then use that money into other local services like education, mental health, etc.

It is an idea going around trying to get the support of the protest.

While I can see the general logic behind it I do not think cutting police department budgets will have a benifical result. 

The harder the job of being a police officer is and the lower the pay the worse the applicants you will get.

Quote

The concept of defunding law enforcement is rooted in the idea of eliminating funds for policing and redirecting that money to initiatives that directly serve communities, including education, healthcare and community programming.

Those are the policies I have seen

 

https://www-newsweek-com.cdn.ampproject.org/v/s/www.newsweek.com/defund-police-movement-growing-heres-what-it-actually-means-1508761?amp_js_v=a3&amp_gsa=1&amp=1&usqp=mq331AQFKAGwASA%3D#aoh=15913835948230&referrer=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com&amp_tf=From %1%24s&ampshare=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.newsweek.com%2Fdefund-police-movement-growing-heres-what-it-actually-means-1508761

 

Now more radical proponents of the movement do see it as getting rid of police all together.

But I doubt those people will catch on.

https://mobile-reuters-com.cdn.ampproject.org/v/s/mobile.reuters.com/article/amp/idUSKBN23C2I9?amp_js_v=a3&amp_gsa=1&usqp=mq331AQFKAGwASA%3D#aoh=15913839630216&referrer=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com&amp_tf=From %1%24s&ampshare=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.reuters.com%2Farticle%2Fus-minneapolis-police-defunding-explaine-idUSKBN23C2I9

Edited by spartan max2
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and then

While there is zero doubt that reforms are needed, the idea of taking money away from the point where the metal meets the meat, so to speak, is just folly.  If you listen to those who want these changes it quickly becomes apparent that they want to have fewer armed police on the street and more of the budget allocated to social workers.  If BOTH could be funded, I'd be the first to agree with these ideas.  We all know that both cannot be funded in most cities.  This is a lesson that will need to be relearned by some cities before it is put to rest again.

I kind of hope that those who are advocating for this in Minneapolis, get exactly what they think they want.  It will make a good model and object lesson for the rest of the nation.

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OverSword

Pandering.  There is also a call to abolish police departments that predates our current riots.

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OverSword
49 minutes ago, spartan max2 said:

The harder the job of being a police officer is and the lower the pay the worse the applicants you will get.

This observation hits the nail on the head.  

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Jarocal
39 minutes ago, and then said:

While there is zero doubt that reforms are needed, the idea of taking money away from the point where the metal meets the meat, so to speak, is just folly.  If you listen to those who want these changes it quickly becomes apparent that they want to have fewer armed police on the street and more of the budget allocated to social workers.  If BOTH could be funded, I'd be the first to agree with these ideas.  We all know that both cannot be funded in most cities.  This is a lesson that will need to be relearned by some cities before it is put to rest again.

I kind of hope that those who are advocating for this in Minneapolis, get exactly what they think they want.  It will make a good model and object lesson for the rest of the nation.

Probably could be funded by both cities and states if they simply pay for more social workers through a decrease in costs incurred by incarcerating petty non-violent crimes. Sure it would hurt Wackenhut's (and other privately ran prisons) bottom line but their profit margin is not my concern. Social workers really don't cost more that prison guards. 

Perhaps the continued education/training for police officers should be more along the lines of a social worker training than a SWAT/CERT training with a more paramilitary tone.

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ExpandMyMind

It's a great idea but unfortunately there would end up being a time between defunding the police and the programmes taking effect where you would have nether the benefits of the schemes nor the ability to police the country.

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Jarocal
29 minutes ago, ExpandMyMind said:

It's a great idea but unfortunately there would end up being a time between defunding the police and the programmes taking effect where you would have nether the benefits of the schemes nor the ability to police the country.

If implemented incorrectly. Defund overpopulated, privately ran for profit prisons and hire the social workers. When those companies are not getting their cash flow they will threaten the municipalities/states. Eminent domain the property and activate the MP divisions of the local national guards to oversee the facility.  Hundreds of laid off prison guards will most likely want a job doing what they know and salaries/benefits could be negotiated without the profit margin their former employer tacked on their services. Prison guards go back to work and National guard goes back home. Would it be a trouble free transition? No. Would it be a left leaning shot across the bow to a more capitalist view of what should be a government function? I believe so. If municipalities can eminent domain private property "for the public benefit" to give private companies the ability to lay oil/gas lines on a farmers property or kick a homeowner off of their piece of land then reclamation of property from a publicly traded corporation would send a message to the American public that the elite are not immune...

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Careful_perspective

perlice.jpg

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Big Jim

Diverting police money into social services presupposes that people commit crimes because they're unhappy with their lives.  Since the lack of funds will impact the police immediately and take possibly several years to get a social services operation up and running, during that time there will be less of each.  Since social services seek to prevent crime by counselling they would need to know ahead of time who is likely to commit crimes in the future and try to intervene by correcting personality defects.  It is a rare criminal indeed that plans his crimes so far in advance that counselling would have a chance of stopping them.  Most murders aren't premeditated or even anticipated minutes ahead of occurring.  They are generally crimes of passion or an interaction gone wrong.  Social services can't prevent them and there will be fewer police to call when they happen.   All in all, I'd say this is a bad plan.

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Big Jim
6 hours ago, and then said:

I kind of hope that those who are advocating for this in Minneapolis, get exactly what they think they want.

Turning Minneapolis into Mogadishu one step at a time.

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Tatetopa
7 hours ago, and then said:

While there is zero doubt that reforms are needed, the idea of taking money away from the point where the metal meets the meat, so to speak, is just folly. 

Sometimes just the threat of taking money away from civil servants or holding them accountable might improve job performance.

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quiXilver

We need Federal legislation to abolish privatized for profit prisons.

 

Unbe-freaking-lievable that this is allowed to happen in this age.

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acidhead

Defund the police. What a great idea from the far left. Great idea. What could possibly go wrong?

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Hankenhunter
Posted (edited)

The cash problem, and a lesson taught would be to stop funding for, and taking away all the paramilitary crap that the cops don't need to do their jobs. That's what the National Guard is for.

Edited by Hankenhunter

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and then
3 hours ago, Tatetopa said:

Sometimes just the threat of taking money away from civil servants or holding them accountable might improve job performance.

True, but it's equally true that the vast majority of cops either have no hate for other races or are professional enough to do the job without their feelings getting into it.  I carry no brief for racists in any line of work.  Abusing people because of their looks or skin color is anathema to what this country stands for today.  What we see happening here in 2020 is about the politics of division, strife and hate.

I can't remember the city where this occurred but it was a perfect example of how Leftist political motives left innocent people in high crime neighborhoods vulnerable to animals that prey on the weakest among us.  There was an incident where white cop and black suspect ends with white cop living and suspect dead.  I don't recall if it was an example nearly as egregious as this one but the bottom line was that after being pilloried by their mayor, they had a mutant version of "blue flu".  They simply stood by and watched the wilding unfold.

The truth that Progressives don't talk about, even to each other, is the justification these officers OFTEN have, regarding how they police in neighborhoods that resemble something out of "ESCAPE from New York".  Take away police and business and even health care will soon follow.  You'd have absolute anarchy and the rule of law would be the law of the jungle.  Then who do the politicians blame?  Who do they demand redress from when they are paying the toll for removing a racist police force?

A couple of days ago,not long after Trump's announcement that he was designating Antifa a domestic terror group, one of their members said F%%% the cities, we go for the suburbs".   Just as with anything else these thugs do, you can be sure they won't follow through on that threat because there would be no mayor or governor to save them from the wrath of a homeowner fearing for the safety of his family.  Oh, they can come, it's their ability to leave again that would be questionable.  And they KNOW it.  If they want risk and the thrill of danger, they'll get both when they go after mom and pop America.  

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Hammerclaw

Political Cartoons by Tom Stiglich

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Buzz_Light_Year

Yeah it'll be just like Baltimore when the police left the hoods because people didn't want them there and then oh my please come back and protect us.

Baltimore Residents Blame Record-High Murder Rate On Lower Police Presence

Quote

 

Some residents attribute the high murder rate to relaxed police patrols in the city following high-profile cases of police brutality. Officers have backed off in neighborhoods, like the one where Freddie Gray was arrested.

The Rev. Kinji Scott, a pastor in Baltimore who's held positions in local city government, says the opposite needs to happen.

"We wanted the police there," Scott says. "We wanted them engaged in the community. We didn't want them beating the hell out of us, we didn't want that."

 

Link after link.

https://duckduckgo.com/?t=ffsb&q=baltimore+resident+beg+police+to+come+back&ia=web

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RAyMO

defund the police unions!

Then bring in real change!

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Jarocal
5 hours ago, quiXilver said:

We need Federal legislation to abolish privatized for profit prisons.

 

Unbe-freaking-lievable that this is allowed to happen in this age.

I disagree. We need state/county led initiatives that are applicable to their situation. Cookie cutter federal mandates will not be as efficient or cost effective. 

Cultural, environmental, and economic factors will vary widely in different areas necessitating unique solutions and those will evolve over time within the same area. 

This extends past the civil law enforcement/correctional system into other facets such as education, medical care, and economic growth.

One example of the need for applicability to a specific area would be the failed local sustainable agriculture initiative "Sweetwater organics". They used sustainable systems proven to be profitable in other areas but only a couple of their products were profitable. Instead of focusing on those systems and scaling back the ones hemorrhaging capital, they continued to increase losses by the belief that because those production methods were successful elsewhere, they would be there too eventually. Didn't happen and they went under. 

The idea of sustainable urban agriculture is a noble one. It can be profitable. But the systems, processes, and products all have to be tailored to fit the community they are in. Not just fit the overall ideology that because it is a green technology this is how it should be done.

While I am not a fan of private run correctional facilities, I also realize that a federal mandate to eliminate them is not a solution. A solution is going to need to be devised by a state/county who should be far more aware of the resources they possess and the individual needs of the the community they serve.

Maybe if Congress would stop pontificating about policies/issues that are really things individual state legislatures need to be addressing they could focus their attention on fixing things which are their responsibility such as fixing the broken VA system who"s employees do the best they can but unfortunately still fall short on providing our veterans the level of service and care they deserve.

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quiXilver
Posted (edited)

Profiting from imprisonment is truly sick and twisted.

 

Edited by quiXilver

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Tatetopa
12 hours ago, and then said:

True, but it's equally true that the vast majority of cops either have no hate for other races or are professional enough to do the job without their feelings getting into it.  I carry no brief for racists in any line of work.  Abusing people because of their looks or skin color is anathema to what this country stands for today.

Absolutely true.  Accountability is not a problem for 98% of the workforce who want to do a good job and take pride in what they are doing.  At least in manufacturing environments, ignoring the bad performance of some individuals and retaining them is demoralizing to the rest of the workforce who work to a higher standard and take pride in their department.

In the toughest times this becomes most important.  Suspects may die in confrontations, that may not change.  It seems like accountability could go a ways toward defusing that.  Body cams at least provide some evidence.  There are indeed neighborhoods where people are as afraid of the police as they are of the gangs.  It didn't happen overnight, or because they were all thugs, or because they always side with the criminal over the law.  It is a legacy that we did not choose and might come from a number of generations who did not hold today's values.  Yet either we change it  or allow to continue.  We are not going to fix it in our generation, but we can make it a little better for our kids and show them an example of how to make it better. still

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travelnjones

Or they are looking to replace the police for with a party approved police force ala the SS.  Which is terrible if either side does it.

What concerns me is these police involved shooting often happen in Liberal cities with a Democratic Mayor and City council.  Before all of you see that as an attack on your values.  What I am wondering if some set of policies is causing the police to ramp up the aggression of their response.   The scare and paranoid often act first in aggression.  It is very true that police training has focused on always being the more aggressive/dominant in an encounter; which I see as a bad choice.  But its seems like the response has amplified with the last 10-15 years.    

The are potential other reasons, I mean the training of the 80's and 90's gang drug thing may have sewn this fruit.  I could be totally off.

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DarkHunter
28 minutes ago, travelnjones said:

Or they are looking to replace the police for with a party approved police force ala the SS.  Which is terrible if either side does it.

What concerns me is these police involved shooting often happen in Liberal cities with a Democratic Mayor and City council.  Before all of you see that as an attack on your values.  What I am wondering if some set of policies is causing the police to ramp up the aggression of their response.   The scare and paranoid often act first in aggression.  It is very true that police training has focused on always being the more aggressive/dominant in an encounter; which I see as a bad choice.  But its seems like the response has amplified with the last 10-15 years.    

The are potential other reasons, I mean the training of the 80's and 90's gang drug thing may have sewn this fruit.  I could be totally off.

A decent part of the cops ramping up aggression is there simply being not enough cops.  More and more cops are patrolling/working alone instead of in pairs which drastically increases the risk to the police officer which in turn causes them to act more aggressive to every situation so they dont get overwhelmed if stuff would go bad.

But just increasing the amount of cops isnt necessarily easy or even a possibility in some areas that already struggle to pay the cops they have let alone the amount they arguably need.

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Big Jim
Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, Tatetopa said:

There are indeed neighborhoods where people are as afraid of the police as they are of the gangs.  It didn't happen overnight, or because they were all thugs, or because they always side with the criminal over the law.  It is a legacy that we did not choose and might come from a number of generations who did not hold today's values.  Yet either we change it  or allow to continue.  We are not going to fix it in our generation, but we can make it a little better for our kids and show them an example of how to make it better. still

How much of that can be attributed to rap music and the values it instils?  I think former generations had better values that have not been passed down, not the other way around.  I grew up in a mixed, but predominately back neighborhood.  We made no distinctions as to who our friends were.  But the black kids were some of the best mannered and polite of the bunch of us.  More than once I remember having the behavior of some of my black friends pointed out by my own parents as an example.  They were much more likely than us white kids to say yes sir and no sir.  I don't recall ever having to deal with cops.  Somewhere along the the line something changed.  Just as the Beatles and the British Invasion caused a cultural change, I believe the same thing could be traced to the introduction and rise of rap music that glorifies the thug life and openly talks about cops being the enemy.

Edited by Big Jim
typos
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