BLM Defund the Police Movement

[Rickety]

7 minutes ago, aztek said:

if the pay isn't fair why do you sign up for it?

it is not my problem how much you get paid, and what you do,  not to mention the pay has 0 to do with the topic, which is police misconduct, 

If you don't think pay is a factor in police misconduct then you are turning a blind eye to a major issue in this country that far superscedes police misconduct and will destroy this nation faster than anything else and that is the growing trend of politicians missapropriating funds to suite their own wants, robbing from the people and the police officers who protect their very lives. You sit there and say that a police officer should be just fine with getting crap pay for risking their lives everyday for people who hate them and try to kill them, yet that same person who tries to kill a police officer would be defended by that same officer if their life was in danger, 99% of cops will do that for people but you are focusing on the 1% who are just terrible people and that has absolutely nothing to do with being a police officer, there are just crappy people in the world and you will never be able to stop that from happening, no matter how much you defund the police, put policies in place, or lock up their counterparts, crappy people are just crappy people and will always be crappy people regardless of their profession. The fact that you care so little about the people who keep you safe everyday, who make it possible for you to safely drive to work, safely go about your business, and safely make it back home speaks volumes about you and your integrity. You think so little of police officers that you believe they should be just fine with being paid a meager salary for risking their lives to keep you safe and that is disgusting.

You are so far into your own delusional echo chamber that you can't even hear the argument I'm making, so you cherry pick what you want and interpret it the way that people in your echo chamber tell you to interpret it. I don't even feel bad for you in this situation because at this point it's just willful ignorance.

[spartan max2]

24 minutes ago, Rickety said:

I would say that they should be paid whatever would be considered a fair "hazard pay" scenario. I think they should be paid above the median. When we're talking about military service members there is actually a bit of a difference, they have a few options to chose from, they can chose to live on base and not have to worry about a mortgage, they are elligible to receive grocery allowances etc. there are many programs in the military that make up for the lask of pay, but I firmly believe that they should be erradicated and they should be paid above median as well if they're putting their lives in danger.

Teachers are typically paid more than what people are lead to believe if we're being honest here, high school teachers earn, on average, about $65,000/yr which is, on average, more than enough for most areas to take care of yourself and have some spending money left over. There are instances of teachers being paid less in many areas and for that situation I would say that, yes, teachers should be paid more. In most high schools you have to have a Master's Degree to teach and I think they should be making Master's Degree money.

Firefighters, social workers, paramedics, etc. etc. etc. we could argue specifics all day long, but when you risk being killed at your job or you need extensive training for your job, you should be paid accordingly. Personally, I propose that we reallocate funds from "beautification" projects, gentrification efforts, and other meaningless programs that are used to try anf funnel more people into a town and put those millions of dollars into our public service industries, it would be put to much better use and there's nothing stopping cities and states from starting fund raising drives to raise money for those other projects, but instead they tend to use tax money, it's a gross misappropriation of funds that should be going to people and departments that need them.

So just like a cop then? 

In Columbus they start at 60k.

The location effects your pay, and cops don't even need masters or bachelor degrees. 

Also I don't think you are taking into account the other benifits (like you happily do with every other profession you decided is less valuable).

Like being able to retire on pension after 25 years of service (in Ohio) that's a great benifit.

I believe all public servants should get a reasonable pay bump.

Cops are valuable but I also think they are just as valuable as other professions. Which is why I think your post erk me. You seem to think nonething else is of value. 

I wasen't sure at first what about your post was getting on my nerves but now I see that that is it.

Edited June 8, 2020 by spartan max2

[WVK]

Just now, aztek said:

if the pay isn't fair why do you sign up for it?

But who will want to go into policing after this incident?  

[aztek]

11 minutes ago, Rickety said:

 

You are so far into your own delusional echo chamber that you can't even hear the argument I'm making, so you cherry pick what you want and interpret it the way that people in your echo chamber tell you to interpret it. I don't even feel bad for you in this situation because at this point it's just willful ignorance.

you are not making argument, you are making b.s  excuses, 

if police can not be trusted to not abuse power due to not being accountable, i'm all for dissolving the police and abolishing entire system, in favor of private contractor security who are not gvmnt enforcers, and are not protected by court system. and do not have union protecting their criminals, like we have now.

and no, i don't give 2 rats tails how much you get paid, if that is not enough for you, get some education , training,and become someone else.

and stop perpetuating a lie that police protect us, they DO NOT. 

 

Edited June 8, 2020 by aztek

[Myles]

I still think the best fix is to create a new department that handles all complaints and investigations of police departments.   Remotely located as to avoid any buddy systems or solidarity.  The 17 or so complaints against an officer would have raised flag long ago.   At minimum mental evaluations would have been done.   The fear of being watched by superiors outside of your control can be enough with many individuals.   

[micahc]

7 minutes ago, Rickety said:

If you don't think pay is a factor in police misconduct then you are turning a blind eye to a major issue in this country that far superscedes police misconduct and will destroy this nation faster than anything else and that is the growing trend of politicians missapropriating funds to suite their own wants, robbing from the people and the police officers who protect their very lives. You sit there and say that a police officer should be just fine with getting crap pay for risking their lives everyday for people who hate them and try to kill them, yet that same person who tries to kill a police officer would be defended by that same officer if their life was in danger, 99% of cops will do that for people but you are focusing on the 1% who are just terrible people and that has absolutely nothing to do with being a police officer, there are just crappy people in the world and you will never be able to stop that from happening, no matter how much you defund the police, put policies in place, or lock up their counterparts, crappy people are just crappy people and will always be crappy people regardless of their profession. The fact that you care so little about the people who keep you safe everyday, who make it possible for you to safely drive to work, safely go about your business, and safely make it back home speaks volumes about you and your integrity. You think so little of police officers that you believe they should be just fine with being paid a meager salary for risking their lives to keep you safe and that is disgusting.

You are so far into your own delusional echo chamber that you can't even hear the argument I'm making, so you cherry pick what you want and interpret it the way that people in your echo chamber tell you to interpret it. I don't even feel bad for you in this situation because at this point it's just willful ignorance.

well I am not in his echo chamber. I am totally anti trump wishing he was burning in hell, there is no such thing as a good republican soon to be Biden voter.  I don't think this is about money. True, there are policemen who have been corrupted by drug money, and bribes, but there are very well paid people in the private sector who get caught committing financial crimes.  Indy police make in excess of 50k salary and I am sure they get overtime.  I am not saying first responders don't deserve more, but not to keep them honest.  I suspect this particular officer was a bad hire 17 years ago and went undetected.  Or he was a decent fellow but the Job turned him into a cold blooded murderer.  Police could start by making sure sociopaths do not get hired, and perhaps continuously over their career retest them for psych issues.  Hearing about his career, he seems to have a lot of complaints, so you cannot say the department was without warning.  

[spartan max2]

8 minutes ago, Myles said:

I still think the best fix is to create a new department that handles all complaints and investigations of police departments.   Remotely located as to avoid any buddy systems or solidarity.  The 17 or so complaints against an officer would have raised flag long ago.   At minimum mental evaluations would have been done.   The fear of being watched by superiors outside of your control can be enough with many individuals.   

They might be trying to do something like that.

 

Quote

The legislation, which has more than 200 Democratic co-sponsors in the House and Senate, would require local police departments to send data on the use of force to the federal government and create a grant program that would allow state attorneys general to create an independent process to investigate misconduct or excessive use of force, according to the five-page summary of the bill. Further, the bill would make it easier for people to recover damages when police departments violate their civil rights and, for the first time, would make lynching a federal hate crime

From what the house out proposed. Post 70.

 

Of course alot of details missing on how this might look. 

Edited June 8, 2020 by spartan max2

[aztek]

32 minutes ago, Myles said:

I still think the best fix is to create a new department that handles all complaints and investigations of police departments.   Remotely located as to avoid any buddy systems or solidarity.  The 17 or so complaints against an officer would have raised flag long ago.   At minimum mental evaluations would have been done.   The fear of being watched by superiors outside of your control can be enough with many individuals.   

we already have civilian board review, it has no power to do anything but suggest, hence absolutely useless to prevent missconduct.

if anyone can make a difference, is a separate force, armed, with powers of arrest and shoot, and whose sole purpose will be  overseeing police only, but we all know it will never happen.

or we need to rethink entre concept of police

Edited June 8, 2020 by aztek

[aztek]

52 minutes ago, WVK said:

But who will want to go into policing after this incident?  

contrary to what is said here, police is well compensated, they do have low base pay first few years,  but every year it goes up, they do OT which pays 1.5 and sometimes 2x , after 20 years they get very good pension, they also have none monetary compensation, like every privilege that comes with a badge, they "moonlight" after hours due to badges and guns, and get paid pretty well there too, (the cop who killed floyd worked for a bar as a security) bar that i often go, or used to go before the virus has a 15 year vet cop as a security, for 4-5 hours  he gets 200 a nigh, if barmen did not lie,

there are plenty of reasons to become a cop, even with today, 

it could be very well true that small town police force are not as well equipped as large cities, but it has no bearing (or at least shoudl not) on them commiting crimes on the job.

Edited June 8, 2020 by aztek

[Big Jim]

There has to be a balance with police pay.  There is something about policing that is in the blood.  It runs in families more than most other professions.  They need to be fairly compensated for the job they do and the risks they take.  Pay too little and these "born policemen" will be forced to do something else.  People with less dedication and skill will fill these positions.  But on the other hand, pay too much and you will attract people who are just in it for the money, also with less dedication and skill.  I would imagine most departments, just like most corporations and businesses, already use compensation consultants to get as close to this balance as possible given the tax base and political climate of each specific location.  The problem doesn't seem to be one of pay but lack of accountability.  As in many other industries, I believe unions to be a large part of the problem.  They're at the heart of why so many companies have gone overseas to do their manufacturing.  Unions increase pay through coercion and protect incompetent workers.  I've seen cases locally where police officers were fired or suspended for misbehavior and even facing criminal charges but were forced to be reinstated and given back pay due to union action.  So it seems if we truly want to reform how we police ourselves the first step should be to do away with police unions.  Let every officer be personally accountable to the community with no intervention or threats of Blue Flu.

[Rickety]

1 hour ago, aztek said:

you are not making argument, you are making b.s  excuses, 

if police can not be trusted to not abuse power due to not being accountable, i'm all for dissolving the police and abolishing entire system, in favor of private contractor security who are not gvmnt enforcers, and are not protected by court system. and do not have union protecting their criminals, like we have now.

and no, i don't give 2 rats tails how much you get paid, if that is not enough for you, get some education , training,and become someone else.

and stop perpetuating a lie that police protect us, they DO NOT. 

 

I am making an argument, you're just not hearing it. Imagine you see the worst in people every single day. Take this for example... you've had your life threatened multiple times within the first hour of your shift, you have people calling you a murderer when you didn't even do anything and have never even drawn your service weapon on someone before, you've attempted to console a rape victim, you've performed CPR on a dead person because you thought to yourself "If I can just do this a little longer, maybe they'll come back!!" only to have your supervisor order you to stop because nothing was going to happen, then you get a call for a welfare check and find an old lady who fell a week prior and broke her hip, unable to reach her phone she had to crawl around and find blankets to keep herself warm in the ND winter because her power got shut off, because she couldn't call the power company and couldn't pay it, she was collecting snow to eat in order to keep herself alive and the only saving grace for her was you, who went in and rescued her from certain death, after that you had to move a dead body that had been sitting and rotting for days, then you get called every name in the book by someone you just pulled over because you gave them a speeding ticket and you're starting to fear for your life because they're getting way too heated and look like they might retaliate... all this... every one of these scenarios in a 12-hour shift, only to get your paycheck a few days later and get $1,400 in your check, taking home $2,800 per month for having to deal with and see all of that on a daily basis. Would you be happy with that? Would you think that's fair? Would you be happy with putting your life at risk everyday and then struggle to pay the mortgage? To put food on the table? To pay the light bill?

Stress adds up, it makes people do irrational things and the number one stressor for many Americans is finances, we shouldn't be putting more stress on our officers by paying them so little when they're entrusted to keep us safe. And you are lying to yourself if you think that police officer you see getting a coffee at the gas station wouldn't drop that coffee and put himself between you and an armed robber at the drop of hat, that's why 9/10 of them take that job, to protect people and serve their communities, but you've fed yourself the lie that they're only in it for power and that's just not true, some of them are, but most of them just want to help.

And do you have any idea how ridiculous you sound by saying "If you don't like it, get an education!!" you realize that a lot of police officers have 2, and 4 year degrees right? You realize that some police officers even have graduate degrees. There are police officers out there who have a high education level than you do and they do the job because they want to help, protect, and serve their community. My argument is that they should be paid better to relieve some of that stress from their life and help them deal with the added stress of never knowing if someone is going to pull a gun on them.

 

Quote

So just like a cop then? 

In Columbus they start at 60k.

The location effects your pay, and cops don't even need masters or bachelor degrees. 

Also I don't think you are taking into account the other benifits (like you happily do with every other profession you decided is less valuable).

Like being able to retire on pension after 25 years of service (in Ohio) that's a great benifit.

I believe all public servants should get a reasonable pay bump.

Cops are valuable but I also think they are just as valuable as other professions. Which is why I think your post erk me. You seem to think nonething else is of value. 

I wasen't sure at first what about your post was getting on my nerves but now I see that that is it.

You keep bringing up Ohio as if it's the standard metric, it's not... Ohio is much different due to its lower cost of living compared to the national average and the 7th largest state economy in the nation with a GDP of around $675 billion, that's not the reality for most other states. Sure there are examples of states that pay their workers much better wages, but not everyone can just move to that state and start over, it doesn't work like that, there are things like family, assets, children, etc. to consider before you say "I want to be a cop!! Ohio pays their cops great!! I'll just move over to Ohio!!" it's just not that simple.

The reason that I'm bringing up police in the vast majority of this argument is because that's the topic, it's about whether or not to defund the police, not whether or not to defund Arby's cashier's. I made the example of a Target manager because that's a metric that I noticed when I was talking to some friends about career paths back in the day. Of course all public servents should be given more than they get now, they have a hard job and come into harms way all the time, but I don't think it's fair to say "Well you don't think anything else is of value!!" when we are literally discussing the topis of defunding the police and I'm trying to make an argument in the other direction of that. I never said that other professions weren't as valuable, I merely said that police should be paid more for their work since they put themselves in harms way for the beterment of the community they serve.

[RoofGardener]

Sooo.. Black Lives Matter is proposing the disestablishment of the police services, and for them to be replaced with partially-trained, armed,  civilian vigilantes. 

Yeah.. right.. what could POSSIBLY go wrong with THAT ?

Edited June 8, 2020 by RoofGardener

[spartan max2]

38 minutes ago, Rickety said:

 

 

You keep bringing up Ohio as if it's the standard metric, it's not... Ohio is much different due to its lower cost of living compared to the national average and the 7th largest state economy in the nation with a GDP of around $675 billion, that's not the reality for most other states. Sure there are examples of states that pay their workers much better wages, but not everyone can just move to that state and start over, it doesn't work like that, there are things like family, assets, children, etc. to consider before you say "I want to be a cop!! Ohio pays their cops great!! I'll just move over to Ohio!!" it's just not that simple.

The reason that I'm bringing up police in the vast majority of this argument is because that's the topic, it's about whether or not to defund the police, not whether or not to defund Arby's cashier's. I made the example of a Target manager because that's a metric that I noticed when I was talking to some friends about career paths back in the day. Of course all public servents should be given more than they get now, they have a hard job and come into harms way all the time, but I don't think it's fair to say "Well you don't think anything else is of value!!" when we are literally discussing the topis of defunding the police and I'm trying to make an argument in the other direction of that. I never said that other professions weren't as valuable, I merely said that police should be paid more for their work since they put themselves in harms way for the beterment of the community they serve.

I'm using Ohio because it's where I live so it's what I'm more familiar with. 

You said this:

Quote

teachers are typically paid more than what people are lead to believe if we're being honest here, high school teachers earn, on average, about $65,000/yr which is, on average, more than enough for most areas to take care of yourself and have some spending money left over.

Which is why I am pointing out to you that location matters with police pay as well, hence the 60k I keep bringing up. Teacher pay varies greatly too. My mom started at 34k when she began. 

And you said this:

Quote

When we're talking about military service members there is actually a bit of a difference, they have a few options to chose from, they can chose to live on base and not have to worry about a mortgage, they are elligible to receive grocery allowances etc. there are many programs in the military that make up for the lask of pay, but I firmly believe that they should be erradicated and they should be paid above median as well if they're putting their lives in danger

Showing that you take the fringe benefits into account when you are talking about other professions, but not when you speak about police since that is your personal world. 

I think a pay bump would be reasonable for your area when its too low.

I think above medium is unrealistic though, specially with your method of paying for it:

Quote

Firefighters, social workers, paramedics, etc. etc. etc. we could argue specifics all day long, but when you risk being killed at your job or you need extensive training for your job, you should be paid accordingly. Personally, I propose that we reallocate funds from "beautification" projects, gentrification efforts, and other meaningless programs that are used to try anf funnel more people into a town and put those millions of dollars into our public service industries, it would be put to much better use and there's nothing stopping cities and states from starting fund raising drives to raise money for those other projects, but instead they tend to use tax money, it's a gross misappropriation of funds that should be going to people and departments that need them.

The more people you put into town the higher the revenue your town has to pay for things. Plus I do not really know what your guidelines are for things to cut. I imagine a lot of things that we might disagree on. 

But at the end of the day I think firefigthers,social workers, paramedics, and cops are of equal value and should be compensated equally. 

 

Edit: I guess what I am saying is that based on the quotes I picked out it seems like you believe that police uniquely are more important and therefore deserve a raise more then the other professions that also serve the public.

Edited June 8, 2020 by spartan max2

[Big Jim]

34 minutes ago, RoofGardener said:

Sooo.. Black Lives Matter is proposing the disestablishment of the police services, and for them to be replaced with partially-trained, armed,  civilian vigilantes. 

Yeah.. right.. what could POSSIBLY go wrong with THAT ?

A LOT!  But none of it will be the fault of the people backing this insane idea.

[Jarocal]

21 minutes ago, spartan max2 said:

I'm using Ohio because it's where I live so it's what I'm more familiar with. 

You said this:

Which is why I am pointing out to you that location matters with police pay as well, hence the 60k I keep bringing up. Teacher pay varies greatly too. My mom started at 34k when she began. 

And you said this:

Showing that you take the fringe benefits into account when you are talking about other professions, but not when you speak about police since that is your personal world. 

I think a pay bump would be reasonable for your area when its too low.

I think above medium is unrealistic though, specially with your method of paying for it:

The more people you put into town the higher the revenue your town has to pay for things. Plus I do not really know what your guidelines are for things to cut. I imagine a lot of things that we might disagree on. 

But at the end of the day I think firefigthers,social workers, paramedics, and cops are of equal value and should be compensated equally. 

 

Edit: I guess what I am saying is that based on the quotes I picked out it seems like you believe that police uniquely are more important and therefore deserve a raise more then the other professions that also serve the public.

Demonstrably false if that town is packed with low income service/hospitality jobs. A better method would be to encourage systems that innovate and increase productivity and wage per capita in a given community maintaining or increasing the tax burden per individual while at the same time reducing municipal costs due to population size which could be further reduced through proper system management. 

Define equally? That the wage scale is the same for each based on time served and experience? Or maybe  based on the median compensation and benefits package for that community overall which may need to be adjusted up or down on a set periodic basis reflecting the economic health if that community?

[spartan max2]

8 minutes ago, Jarocal said:

Demonstrably false if that town is packed with low income service/hospitality jobs. A better method would be to encourage systems that innovate and increase productivity and wage per capita in a given community maintaining or increasing the tax burden per individual while at the same time reducing municipal costs due to population size which could be further reduced through proper system management. 

Define equally? That the wage scale is the same for each based on time served and experience? Or maybe  based on the median compensation and benefits package for that community overall which may need to be adjusted up or down on a set periodic basis reflecting the economic health if that community?

For the top paragraph, it is definitely more complicated then how I phrased it. My point was more that we would have to be careful before cutting things. Just because some project looks frivolous to you or me does not mean it is from a urban development perspective.

And equally could be any of those you mentioned. Smarter minds then I could figure it out.

I'm just saying that I do not believe a police officer should make more then as firefighter just because they are police, and same for the other public services. Because they are are vital and work together to achieve the best results.

Which is what I feel like the poster I was replying to felt. That police should be compensated more then all other public servants. 

Edited June 8, 2020 by spartan max2

[Jarocal]

20 minutes ago, Big Jim said:

A LOT!  But none of it will be the fault of the people backing this insane idea.

Perhaps a better solution to the dismantling of the police force would be to restructure how the states national guard is utilized and efforts to expand it's function via established commitments agreed to by its members utilized in a better fashion. Fire suppression,  policing, and medical response training are already imbued in that institution.  Addition of social service training to a group of members would only strengthen that institution's ability to function better. The rotational nature of dedicated service time apart from their normal employment may lead to a longer shelf life per individual before "becoming jaded by job experience". With appropriate record keeping longer term investigations may even see a faster and more accurate resolution as a fresh pair of eyes could preclude tunnel vision on a single suspect as shown to be the case in Philadelphia where a guy was just released with conviction overturned after spending 28 years on death row (with an admission from the current district attorney's office that they believe he is innocent).

Properly implemented remuneration for such service could be enhanced while still lowering costs to individual communities and enhancing the overall size of the institution, reducing the fear of institutional abuse on the part of the individual services and putting any blame for institutional inadequacy back on the elected officials who promulgate policy.

Edited June 8, 2020 by Jarocal

[Jarocal]

32 minutes ago, spartan max2 said:

For the top paragraph, it is definitely more complicated then how I phrased it. My point was more that we would have to be careful before cutting things. Just because some project looks frivolous to you or me does not mean it is from a urban development perspective.

And equally could be any of those you mentioned. Smarter minds then I could figure it out.

I'm just saying that I do not believe a police officer should make more then as firefighter just because they are police, and same for the other public services. Because they are are vital and work together to achieve the best results.

Which is what I feel like the poster I was replying to felt. That police should be compensated more then all other public servants. 

In regard to your top paragraph I strongly recommend that you pick up a copy of the book I mentioned by Deming in a different thread. While I didn't mind the relatively high price of a new copy a used copy can be found for 15-30 dollars. The insights contained therein are as applicable to education, government, and daily life as they are to business (which portions of his work are most often applied to).

To your second paragraph, again his philosophy would prove you wrong as he considered your contribution as valuable as the "smarter minds" who have led to the decline in America. 

On the pay scale, I tend to agree and there may be better systems to implement than someone is working at any of those jobs in the same office 200+ days/year. 

Lastly everyone wants to make more money regardless their professional affiliation. Even Warren Buffet who bemoans he pays less in taxes than his secretary (though he could direct his accountants to not minimize his personal tax liability) still wants to earn more than he does.

[Rickety]

1 hour ago, spartan max2 said:

I'm using Ohio because it's where I live so it's what I'm more familiar with. 

You said this:

Which is why I am pointing out to you that location matters with police pay as well, hence the 60k I keep bringing up. Teacher pay varies greatly too. My mom started at 34k when she began. 

And you said this:

Showing that you take the fringe benefits into account when you are talking about other professions, but not when you speak about police since that is your personal world. 

I think a pay bump would be reasonable for your area when its too low.

I think above medium is unrealistic though, specially with your method of paying for it:

The more people you put into town the higher the revenue your town has to pay for things. Plus I do not really know what your guidelines are for things to cut. I imagine a lot of things that we might disagree on. 

But at the end of the day I think firefigthers,social workers, paramedics, and cops are of equal value and should be compensated equally. 

 

Edit: I guess what I am saying is that based on the quotes I picked out it seems like you believe that police uniquely are more important and therefore deserve a raise more then the other professions that also serve the public.

I never said that any one of them were more important than the other, I am bringing up police because that is what this topic is about. This topic is not about firefighters, teachers, paramedics, or anything like that, this topic is about police, that's why I'm focusing more on police in this situation. What benefits are you referring to though? Medical? Because yeah they have decent medical coverage, but nothing that's any better than what I have as an IT Technician. They don't have very good dental, vision, or life insurance, they're considered "high risk" so they don't get the best coverage, plus they're underfunded so their departments can't afford to offer really good insurance. Other than that... I mean... access to a police shooting range?... maybe some professional courtesy when they get pulled over by a friend and they were going 3 over? I'm not exactly sure what you mean by "benefits" but if you think cops get out of this world insurance then you'd be very wrong, it's basic stuff, the very basics that any and all state/county/city employees are afforded by the government. I mean... I can think of maybe one situation where me and my girlfriend got some popcorn for free because she was a cop?? Those kinds of benefits? I'm really not following your logic here. Sure benefits are a big part of your overall package as an employee and the better the package the better off you are but... if it's just basic coverage then you're not really "well to do".

[aztek]

2 hours ago, Rickety said:

I am making an argument, you're just not hearing it. Imagine you see the worst in people every single day. Take this for example... you've had your life threatened multiple times within the first hour of your shift, you have people calling you a murderer when you didn't even do anything and have never even drawn your service weapon on someone before, you've attempted to console a rape victim, you've performed CPR on a dead person because you thought to yourself "If I can just do this a little longer, maybe they'll come back!!" only to have your supervisor order you to stop because nothing was going to happen, then you get a call for a welfare check and find an old lady who fell a week prior and broke her hip, unable to reach her phone she had to crawl around and find blankets to keep herself warm in the ND winter because her power got shut off, because she couldn't call the power company and couldn't pay it, she was collecting snow to eat in order to keep herself alive and the only saving grace for her was you, who went in and rescued her from certain death, after that you had to move a dead body that had been sitting and rotting for days, then you get called every name in the book by someone you just pulled over because you gave them a speeding ticket and you're starting to fear for your life because they're getting way too heated and look like they might retaliate... all this... every one of these scenarios in a 12-hour shift, only to get your paycheck a few days later and get $1,400 in your check, taking home $2,800 per month for having to deal with and see all of that on a daily basis. Would you be happy with that? Would you think that's fair? Would you be happy with putting your life at risk everyday and then struggle to pay the mortgage? To put food on the table? To pay the light bill?

Stress adds up, it makes people do irrational things and the number one stressor for many Americans is finances, we shouldn't be putting more stress on our officers by paying them so little when they're entrusted to keep us safe. And you are lying to yourself if you think that police officer you see getting a coffee at the gas station wouldn't drop that coffee and put himself between you and an armed robber at the drop of hat, that's why 9/10 of them take that job, to protect people and serve their communities, but you've fed yourself the lie that they're only in it for power and that's just not true, some of them are, but most of them just want to help.

And do you have any idea how ridiculous you sound by saying "If you don't like it, get an education!!" you realize that a lot of police officers have 2, and 4 year degrees right? You realize that some police officers even have graduate degrees. There are police officers out there who have a high education level than you do and they do the job because they want to help, protect, and serve their community. My argument is that they should be paid better to relieve some of that stress from their life and help them deal with the added stress of never knowing if someone is going to pull a gun on them.

 

 

oh please cry me a river,  none of it is an excuse to use excessive\lethal force when it is not warranted, or covering up for your buddies.  your emotional pleas fall on deaf ears here,

but i see where you coming from, police have 1 in 100 chance of being shot, but 1 in 1000 chance of being convicted, i'd take those chances too.

Edited June 8, 2020 by aztek

[Myles]

I am pro cop mostly because I know several and they are all good people.   There are bad ones though just like in every walk of life.  

I think if they had to answer to a separate department for complaints and investigations that is not located locally, it would solve most of these issues.   Kind of like with many jobs.   I know my boss well.   He is the plant manager where I work.   If I mess up, I can smooth it over with him.   If corporate had to weigh in each time, I'd be making sure to make sure I didn't mess up as much.   Actually, I do my job very well, but the point was different.   

The biggest issue is solidarity and this stuff handled locally.   Like the 17 complaints (issues) against the thug cop.   An independent remote run department would have been involved years ago.   

[travelnjones]

18 hours ago, Big Jim said:

I haven't seen a hippie in about 50 years, even without death metal.  

I have lived by Portland and Santa Cruz.  Always have a copy of Haunting the Chapel just in case.

[Big Jim]

2 hours ago, Jarocal said:

Perhaps a better solution to the dismantling of the police force would be to restructure how the states national guard is utilized and efforts to expand it's function via established commitments agreed to by its members utilized in a better fashion. Fire suppression,  policing, and medical response training are already imbued in that institution.  Addition of social service training to a group of members would only strengthen that institution's ability to function better. The rotational nature of dedicated service time apart from their normal employment may lead to a longer shelf life per individual before "becoming jaded by job experience". With appropriate record keeping longer term investigations may even see a faster and more accurate resolution as a fresh pair of eyes could preclude tunnel vision on a single suspect as shown to be the case in Philadelphia where a guy was just released with conviction overturned after spending 28 years on death row (with an admission from the current district attorney's office that they believe he is innocent).

Properly implemented remuneration for such service could be enhanced while still lowering costs to individual communities and enhancing the overall size of the institution, reducing the fear of institutional abuse on the part of the individual services and putting any blame for institutional inadequacy back on the elected officials who promulgate policy.

I really don't see that as a viable alternative.  Most people in the N.G volunteer for what it means to them, the benefits they receive.  Help with tuition, some training and a two week camping trip.  When they get called up they serve because it's part of the bargain.  Right now, there are about 3 times as many police in the U.S. as National Guardsmen.  Can we count on a steady quota that large to volunteer, especially when it means active policing and not just crowd control?  The advantage of community based police is that they come to know their beats and the people in them and yet we still have problems.  Will that be improved when the police are always strangers?  As with any other job, the career professionals are likely to do it better than anyone else.  Could you see this idea working with anything besides policing?  Teaching, engineering, dentistry?

[Jarocal]

21 minutes ago, Big Jim said:

I really don't see that as a viable alternative.  Most people in the N.G volunteer for what it means to them, the benefits they receive.  Help with tuition, some training and a two week camping trip.  When they get called up they serve because it's part of the bargain.  Right now, there are about 3 times as many police in the U.S. as National Guardsmen.  Can we count on a steady quota that large to volunteer, especially when it means active policing and not just crowd control?  The advantage of community based police is that they come to know their beats and the people in them and yet we still have problems.  Will that be improved when the police are always strangers?  As with any other job, the career professionals are likely to do it better than anyone else.  Could you see this idea working with anything besides policing?  Teaching, engineering, dentistry?

I never implied it was a national cookie cutter solution. In most instances, I am against "this is how everyone should do it" solutions as they are not the most effective nor efficient. In the case of Minneapolis where apparently the city has been unable to adequately provide the necessary services in an appropriate manner as is expected by society, the use of the national guard on a rotating "and paid for by the city" basis with a specific duty pay also covered by the city may prove practical. Minor retraining of MPs in the national guard to the civilian statutes would not provide an onerous cost. The national guard holds far more respectability in the eyes of the public than many civil law enforcement agencies do. It could be argued that they have received more training in peacefully diffusing potentially hazardous situations as they have been trained to operate in not only America during times of crisis but also foreign theatres where the microscope of news media from around the world are eager to pounce on any misstep by an American operating in countries such as Iraq and Afghanistan. 

Maybe part of the problem with the current community policing policies are that officers spend too much time in the same neighborhood and develope prejudices against individuals that cloud their judgements. 

Many of the national guard are career professionals and the jobs they perform for service there reflect skills they practice in their civilian life. Again, I am not saying this is a national solution,  all civil police departments need disbanded and this implemented. I am not even saying this is the best thing for Minneapolis though with it's seeming historical institutional problems and recent spiral from mediocrity into revulsion by the public calling for it dismantling by even the legislative body accountable for its oversight and guidance. I don't think it would be a step in the wrong direction even if it is a short term strategy that allows for the correct analysis and system development that will not occur if the current police system is  continued to be utilized while an insufficient solution is hurriedly slapped together to end in disappointment. 

Teaching, engineering, and dentistry?

Sure. If a proper system is in place a switch in who is at the front of the class speaking should have minimal impact. No Public schools that I know of have such a system in place which should be considered irrelevant as the system that is in place does not perform adequately with the same teacher sitting at the desk everyday. That is by no means a slander of their efforts which are severely hampered by process they are constrained to conform to.

Engineering? Err yeah, ask FoxCon in China who not only offers American corporations a cheap labor force but an excellent engineering department larger than most in America. While the individual point of contact may be assigned and singular per client or project the entire team is bounced around and work collaboratively rather than like in America or other countries in the West were lip service is paid to collaboration but teams are divided into groups where better performing teams receive higher bonuses. The result is counterproductive as competition between teams stifles the collaboration that raises the productivity of the company as a whole. Dentists? I would hope any licensed dentist would be able to read an xray and know which tooth needs the root canal or filling. I would also hope they read well enough to read I am allergic to penicillin and not prescribe it to me for an antibiotic.

[Golden Duck]

4 hours ago, RoofGardener said:

Sooo.. Black Lives Matter is proposing the disestablishment of the police services, and for them to be replaced with partially-trained, armed,  civilian vigilantes. 

Yeah.. right.. what could POSSIBLY go wrong with THAT ?

Is that actually what is being suggested?  Is there a source?

Juxtapose the cost of the cnetralised police in the UK with the decentralised police across the USA.