Statues Honouring British Imperialism

[Golden Duck]

36 minutes ago, third_eye said:

Not Bert and Ernie though, the rioting would start all over again... 

~

 

[Oniomancer]

I'm more offended by the wording of the poll choices then I am by most of these statues.

[glorybebe]

3 hours ago, Aaron2017 said:

Another thought. If the statues themselves are respectable, should they still be removed if the sculptors or the people who paid and commissioned to have the statues erected were of dubious character?  e.g.

Eric Gill made many sculptures around the world, but his private life was less reputable e.g. affairs and incest with daughters and even with his pet dog.  Does the maker's past deeds justify the removal of his work?  Does the same apply to the people who made and commissioned the Imperial war statues?

 

A few examples of his work.

 

 

That is just disgusting.  How could anyone display those!?

[SHaYap]

I think it's only how and what the statue "represents" and not the who, why or when and where ...

~

Edited June 11, 2020 by third_eye
Stoopid android predictive text

[ChrLzs]

3 hours ago, Hugh Mungus said:

Being loyal to your home is patriotism

Misguided patriotism is one of the biggest reasons that this planet is going down the toilet.  Sadly, it's relatively easy to suppress information, and lie your ass off, and gee up your followers...

Well, at least I presume it is, judging by what's happening in certain places that shall not be named...

[Hankenhunter]

Remove them and put them in a museum. That's what they're there for. If the museum doesn't want them, then I'm sure the reef builders would take them and put them to good use. 

[Tatetopa]

4 hours ago, Hugh Mungus said:

Generally statues are for people who did great things historically, even if they did awful things as well by today's standard. Perhaps you can tell me what this Mr Hitler guy did that was great?

He made Germany Great Again.

[Hankenhunter]

3 hours ago, Hugh Mungus said:

Fair point. We don't normally put statues up for economic achievements, especially if they were fleeting.

Point 2 and 3 don't make him a traitor. Being loyal to your home is patriotism. 

Are there any statues of Native Americans around that you wish to discuss? I'm sure not all the achievements of great Native American leaders/hero's were politically correct by today's standards.

 

He wasn't being loyal to his home. He was being loyal to a politically expedient solution. i.e: Slavery

[RoofGardener]

It is slightly silly to remove statues of people who benefited from slavery back in the 19th Century, because almost EVERYBODY benefited from slavery, indirectly.  

Most of these statues are of people who specifically benefited British society at the time, usually by endowments to schools, creation of major trade nexus's (docks, railways, civic buildings etc), and acts of charity. I would suggest that nobody had a statue made purely for being a slaveholder. 

[Setton]

5 hours ago, Hankenhunter said:

Remove them and put them in a museum. That's what they're there for. If the museum doesn't want them, then I'm sure the reef builders would take them and put them to good use. 

Exactly this. Statues in public places are a statement of honour. They have always been changed or removed as values changed.

Absolutely, we should make sure we learn from our past. The best place for this is one that can also communicate the wider context. A museum can do this. A plinth cannot.

[Setton]

4 hours ago, RoofGardener said:

It is slightly silly to remove statues of people who benefited from slavery back in the 19th Century, because almost EVERYBODY benefited from slavery, indirectly.  

Most of these statues are of people who specifically benefited British society at the time, usually by endowments to schools, creation of major trade nexus's (docks, railways, civic buildings etc), and acts of charity. I would suggest that nobody had a statue made purely for being a slaveholder. 

Bit of a difference between "became wealthy due to the strong British enconomy (partly underpinned by slavery) and used this money to benefit society" and "sold 100,000 people into slavery then used a tiny fraction of the profits to build some local amenities".

[hetrodoxly]

Yes, take them down also knock down the buildings and universities they funded, stop the scholarships they left behind, Rhodes university in Africa should be knocked down immediately, Rhodes scholarship that brings black Africans to Oxford should be stopped, can you imagine how bad it is for them entering that building, bring the whole damn lot down.    

[stevewinn]

There is nice little place called Bir Tawil. uninhabited land claimed by no one. why don't these people who want to destroy everything and live in a sterile country all feck off there and build what they seek. be interesting to see how they get on, im sure they'll get a grant.

[Piney]

16 minutes ago, hetrodoxly said:

Yes, take them down also knock down the buildings and universities they funded, stop the scholarships they left behind, Rhodes university in Africa should be knocked down immediately, Rhodes scholarship that brings black Africans to Oxford should be stopped, can you imagine how bad it is for them entering that building, bring the whole damn lot down.    

Quote

One of Rhodes's primary motivations in politics and business was his professed belief that the Anglo-Saxon race was, to quote his will, "the first race in the world".^[3] Under the reasoning that "the more of the world we inhabit the better it is for the human race",^[3] he advocated vigorous settler colonialism and ultimately a reformation of the British Empire so that each component would be self-governing and represented in a single parliament in London.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cecil_Rhodes

schweeettt!!!!! 

 

[Susanc241]

My heart is thumping as I type this but it infuriates me that nobody acknowledges the part the Africans themselves played in the slavery argument (and I abhor slavery and racism).  You can’t change the past - slavery was endemic amongst the tribal groups in Africa for hundreds of years before the white man showed up there.  Then those tribes that did the raiding and enslaving did it for the white men in exchange for guns and other goods.  We know that some African Americans owned slaves themselves.  We all have to learn our history and be honest about what we uncover.  African Americans or anybody with African heritage have to face the fact that their ancestors were possibly complicit in the history of slavery.  NONE of us has an unsullied ancestry, because people aren’t perfect.  Trying to wipe out the knowledge of the past does not allow us to learn from the mistakes of the past, and this we must do, or we are even more doomed than we already are.

And as to Winston Churchill being targeted because of his connections to the Empire, had he not defeated Hitler none of those complaining about him who are from the BAME communities would be here today.  Had Hitler won he would have done the same to those who were in Britain and Europe as he did to the Jews- wipe them all out, or at least had a damn good try.  There would have been nobody to stop him before he got rid of a few million.

[Wepwawet]

If the statues of these "imperialists" are to be torn down, then surely it should not just be the "boots on the ground", but statues of those at the highest level of society, including Queen Victoria. Decrying Rhodes and removing him without touching Victoria would be like attacking Rheinhard Heydrich but leaving Hitler alone. Should statues of James Cook be removed, but statues of George III left alone? Walter Raleigh and Elizabeth I ?. Then, going further back in time, how can the statue of the crusader Richard the Lionheart remain outside parliament, or anywhere else. The Ancient Egyptians practised slavery, though of a comparitively mild type compared to the Romans, so off to the Victoria Embankment to tear down "Cleopatra's Needle"?

[Piney]

13 minutes ago, Susanc241 said:

My heart is thumping as I type this but it infuriates me that nobody acknowledges the part the Africans themselves played in the slavery argument (and I abhor slavery and racism).  

Seeing the American Democrats in Ashanti kente was hilarious! Especially since the Ashanti were more the sellers than the sellies!! 

On another note nobody brings up the fact that the Coastal Algonquian were raided and sold as slaves by the Marylanders and Puritans among others. 

 

[hetrodoxly]

37 minutes ago, Piney said:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cecil_Rhodes

schweeettt!!!!! 

 

Yes knock the lot down, how can they enter the building of such a man.

 

18 minutes ago, Piney said:

Seeing the American Democrats in Ashanti kente was hilarious! Especially since the Ashanti were more the sellers than the sellies!! 

On another note nobody brings up the fact that the Coastal Algonquian were raided and sold as slaves by the Marylanders and Puritans among others. 

 

Not to mention the English slaves taken to the Americas.

[Piney]

Just now, hetrodoxly said:

Not to mention the English slaves taken to the Americas.

Cromwell sold a **** ton of Scots and Irish. 

[hetrodoxly]

They've been trying to remove the statue of Baden Powell the founder of the boy scouts today people of the town he comes from have formed a human barrier around it to stop it being taken.

[hetrodoxly]

7 minutes ago, Piney said:

Cromwell sold a **** ton of Scots and Irish. 

and English, the Scots sold a lot and the Irish had the worse slave ships on the high seas.

Edited June 11, 2020 by hetrodoxly

[TigerBright19]

What about the religious angle?  Does it really comes down to this:

"Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image." - Holy Commandment.  Given time, all things come and go.  We can't expect historic buildings to remain standing in 500 or 1,000 years time.  Does the same apply to statues?  Do we really want statues of the past to be the only remaining markers on Earth in the distant future?

 

 

[+Desertrat56]

13 hours ago, Piney said:

They were put up after the Jim Crow Laws as a political "beat down" and Confederate losers should not be deified.  .

I thought the Onate statues keep getting vandalized by the Dine' and Pueblo ?  

They do, and some of them have been moved.  It is understandable why they are vandalized.  That is one statue I would think should be taken down and put in a museum with a huge plaque listing all the heinous crimes he committed.  Big plaques stating why we these people are not honorable should accompany all those statues, history so it doesn't get repeated (and I think Lee is not one of those as he followed his conscience).  I think the U.S. calvary was less honorable than Lee, based on them having people like Custer in their midst.  That is history as well, and when I was a kid we had old history books that made out he was a hero.  Now no one knows who he was under the age of 45.  That is a mistake, everyone needs to know what a reprobate he was and how he got the position he did.  In the 70's I had a bumper sticker that said "Custer died for your sins."   I still think that is funny on many levels. And then it is sad to think about that whole mess.

[Piney]

@Desertrat56  

Benedict Arnold was just like Lee, a hero prior to being a traitor. 

Are there any statues of him?  

[odas]

Thinking a bit deeper and reading both, pro and contra posts, we really opened a can of worms. Guess we all have our ghosts in our closets.

Conclusion: our human history is completely efd up. May Ahura Mazda help us all.