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OverSword

The Pathology of Activism

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Kittens Are Jerks
1 hour ago, seanjo said:

You are ill informed, you are spouting lies and left-wing propaganda.

Why aren't BLM protests happening in Black suburbs/ghettos where the majority of Black people being murdered occurs? The most dangerous thing for a young Black Man in the US, is another young Black Man. BLM is a left-wing  political movement, not a Human Rights movement.

All I can do with that inane comment of yours is to reply in kind. You are totally out of touch with what is happening and why

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Peter B
3 hours ago, RoofGardener said:

I'd suggest that this "de-platforming" is nothing short of Fascism and Nazism. 

Suggest away, though I don't agree with you. Fascism and Nazism are ideologies. De-platforming is an activity. Activities are not ideologies.

ETA: I engaged in some deplatforming a few years ago: I discovered the science museum in Canberra (Questacon) was selling books on astrology in their book shop. I wrote to Questacon to ask them to withdraw the books from sale as astrology could gain an inappropriate level of scientific credibility from being sold in such a location. The books were subsequently withdrawn from sale, thus deplatforming their author. I'd be a little miffed if you were to claim my activity counted as "Fascism and Nazism".

Edited by Peter B
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RoofGardener
24 minutes ago, Peter B said:

Suggest away, though I don't agree with you. Fascism and Nazism are ideologies. De-platforming is an activity. Activities are not ideologies.

ETA: I engaged in some deplatforming a few years ago: I discovered the science museum in Canberra (Questacon) was selling books on astrology in their book shop. I wrote to Questacon to ask them to withdraw the books from sale as astrology could gain an inappropriate level of scientific credibility from being sold in such a location. The books were subsequently withdrawn from sale, thus deplatforming their author. I'd be a little miffed if you were to claim my activity counted as "Fascism and Nazism".

I'm suprised you didn't ask that they burned the books :P

OK.. let me rephrase my original point. De-platforming is an activity based on the principle of using force or intimidation to prevent the airing of opposing viewpoints. As such, it is based in the ideological roots of Fascism and Nazism which used similar techniques to squash dissent. 

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Horta
1 hour ago, RoofGardener said:

I'm suprised you didn't ask that they burned the books :P

OK.. let me rephrase my original point. De-platforming is an activity based on the principle of using force or intimidation to prevent the airing of opposing viewpoints. As such, it is based in the ideological roots of Fascism and Nazism which used similar techniques to squash dissent. 

Out of curiosity, does your support for free expression of opposing viewpoints extend to holocaust deniers?  What about "hate speech"? Where do you draw the line (if at all)?

 

Edited by Horta

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Horta
2 hours ago, RoofGardener said:

As such, it is based in the ideological roots of Fascism and Nazism which used similar techniques to squash dissent. 

I think you'll find it predates these ideologies by millennia. Comparisons there don't work anyway. "De-platforming" wasn't really what these groups did, they were far more violent than that. In many instances they could be described literally as "wiping out" dissension.

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Peter B
1 hour ago, RoofGardener said:

I'm suprised you didn't ask that they burned the books :P

OK.. let me rephrase my original point. De-platforming is an activity based on the principle of using force or intimidation to prevent the airing of opposing viewpoints. As such, it is based in the ideological roots of Fascism and Nazism which used similar techniques to squash dissent. 

Burn the books? Of course not, and I'm outraged that you could think so! Outraged, I tell you.

I'd save burning for the books claiming firewalkers have special powers, and then I'd walk on the hot ashes to prove it was actually physics that protects firewalkers.

As for deplatforming, I'm curious why you're so determined to associate it with Nazism and Fascism in particular. People espousing all sorts of ideologies indulge in it, more from the political left than the right. Or are you simply trying to confuse lefties by calling them out as Nazis?

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XenoFish
5 hours ago, RoofGardener said:

I'd suggest that this "de-platforming" is nothing short of Fascism and Nazism. 

I think it's really a result of the echo chambers on the internet. Where any outside opinion is hated. Even if that opinion is backed by facts. 

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Kittens Are Jerks
48 minutes ago, seanjo said:

I know exactly what is happening. Identity politics driven by the left: The left needs division to thrive. You are being taken in by nutters. Are you concerned at all by the numbers of young Black Men murdered by other young Black Men? Are you at all concerned with the abandonment of these people by BLM and the Democrats?

Funny, but given the rhetoric and actions of the current administration, I'd be inclined to think that they are the ones who need division to survive. Why else would they sow it as much as they have? As for black on black crime, save it for another topic thread, because right here, right now, it's nothing more than a misdirection; a talking point that you and others are using to derail.  It also ignores a crucial fact. When blacks commit crimes against other blacks, or whites against other whites, etc., the perpetrator usually faces justice. Where the perpetrator is a cop, however, justice is not as easily achieved. And that is what we should be discussing.

Edited by Kittens Are Jerks
Grammatical correction.
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Rlyeh
22 hours ago, seanjo said:

You are ill informed, you are spouting lies and left-wing propaganda.

Why aren't BLM protests happening in Black suburbs/ghettos where the majority of Black people being murdered occurs? The most dangerous thing for a young Black Man in the US, is another young Black Man. BLM is a left-wing  political movement, not a Human Rights movement.

The BLM site states they are only interested in opposing white supremacy and violence against blacks by the state.

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Manwon Lender
On 6/12/2020 at 7:05 PM, seanjo said:

You are ill informed, you are spouting lies and left-wing propaganda.

Why aren't BLM protests happening in Black suburbs/ghettos where the majority of Black people being murdered occurs? The most dangerous thing for a young Black Man in the US, is another young Black Man. BLM is a left-wing  political movement, not a Human Rights movement.

I have a very simple question for you do Black live matter to you?

Peace

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Kittens Are Jerks
16 minutes ago, seanjo said:

Try again.

Don't have to. There other examples in the article and elsewhere. All you have to do is read.

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and then
On 6/12/2020 at 10:09 AM, Horta said:

I think you'll find it predates these ideologies by millennia. Comparisons there don't work anyway. "De-platforming" wasn't really what these groups did, they were far more violent than that. In many instances they could be described literally as "wiping out" dissension.

The "wiping out" is the next step.  The question is, who will be doing the "wiping"?  Push ideologies underground and they have a tendency to morph into true monsters.  No free rides.  No one will long stay down with a boot on their neck.  Those who think they WILL, will learn the same old lesson so many have found in the past.  

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Horta
1 minute ago, and then said:

The "wiping out" is the next step.  The question is, who will be doing the "wiping"?  Push ideologies underground and they have a tendency to morph into true monsters.  No free rides.  No one will long stay down with a boot on their neck.  Those who think they WILL, will learn the same old lesson so many have found in the past.  

There most definitely are ideologies worth "deplatforming".  Not sure what you're on about though, right wing extremism is in no danger, it's in full swing around the world at the moment.

Surely given the topic, your "boot on the neck" remark was an attempt at irony?

 

 

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GlitterRose
On 6/11/2020 at 10:57 AM, Piney said:

I've been a environmental and Indian rights activist since 4th grade. But I don't believe in protests and think they don't work.

My group the Union of Concerned Scientists and my sister's group the Raging Grannies don't allow people that act like asses around us when we protest though.

 

I really think protests accomplish exactly d**k in the way of progress toward a goal.

It seems like all they do is make targets out of whoever engages in them.

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Manwon Lender
7 hours ago, seanjo said:

All lives matter. Black people kill more Black people than anyone else.

Thanks for clearing that up, and also thanks for coming out and telling us where you truly stand,:)

Peace

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Liquid Gardens
21 hours ago, seanjo said:

So not addressing the real problem, which is, absent father's, single motherhood and a culture of gang violence.

Why don't we work on addressing the 'real problem' with racism and selfishness and cruel indifference in white culture for once?

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White Crane Feather
On 6/11/2020 at 11:24 AM, Kittens Are Jerks said:

Ugh, not that racist, sexist, homophobic incel again. He's the last person on this planet who knows anything about a 'quick route to moral virtue.'

I do, however, agree with him that a desire to make the world a better place, no matter how difficult it is to effect change, is a motivator for young protestors. What he doesn't focus on is how youth are often criticised for being entitled and apathetic, then treated with derision and disdain when they finally do speak out.

Why is there a need to marginalise protestors? Is it because people hate having their neighbourhoods disrupted? Are people unwilling or unable to accept some hard truths about certain issues? Or are people simply okay with the status quo?

The problem isn’t disruption or being uncomfortable. The problem is that sometimes movements have merit and other times they are fueled by the quirks of the human mind. We only need to go as far back as world war 2 during the McCarthy era, the Japanese internment, the Salem witch trials etc etc... to see how large groups of human beings can run off the rails. When a movement based on illogical principals takes hold and it becomes a cultural virtue, we end up with serious problems. 
 

We are seeing that currently. Wide spread racism disguised as a counter solution to severe socioeconomic problems and perceived mass racism.


 

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White Crane Feather
5 hours ago, Liquid Gardens said:

Why don't we work on addressing the 'real problem' with racism and selfishness and cruel indifference in white culture for once?

Unfortunately, I believe much of what you are saying is a form of selection bias. There is systemic racism no doubt, but the “cruel indifference in white culture” you dramatically speak of is a result of a clear historical progression, and the subsequent very human responses. It’s all statistically verifiable, and what is perceived as systemic racism a natural outcropping of human cognitive behavior. If you do not address the root issues  with scientific scrutiny, the problem cannot be resolved and will be perpetuated. Even more concerning is the confirmation bias that develops in minds that actually cause them to feel oppressed. 

 

 

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Kittens Are Jerks
30 minutes ago, White Crane Feather said:

The problem isn’t disruption or being uncomfortable. The problem is that sometimes movements have merit and other times they are fueled by the quirks of the human mind. We only need to go as far back as world war 2 during the McCarthy era, the Japanese internment, the Salem witch trials etc etc... to see how large groups of human beings can run off the rails. When a movement based on illogical principals takes hold and it becomes a cultural virtue, we end up with serious problems. 

We are seeing that currently. Wide spread racism disguised as a counter solution to severe socioeconomic problems and perceived mass racism.

Perhaps I've misunderstood your comment, but I do not see how racism, police brutality, etc., are fueld by quirks of the human mind.

Also, could you expand on what you think those illogical principles are? 

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Liquid Gardens

 

1 hour ago, White Crane Feather said:

There is systemic racism no doubt, but the “cruel indifference in white culture” you dramatically speak of is a result of a clear historical progression, and the subsequent very human responses.

As is all human behavior, so I'm not sure why you're bothering to note this.

1 hour ago, White Crane Feather said:

It’s all statistically verifiable, and what is perceived as systemic racism a natural outcropping of human cognitive behavior.

All racism, all 'isms' are 'natural outcroppings of human cognitive behavior'.  And if you are looking for statistics, there are statistics that support the existence of systemic racism as more than just a 'perception'.

The reason I mentioned 'racism and selfishness and cruel indifference' with respect to white culture is because it is the counterpart to the also 'dramatically' mentioned 'absent father's, single motherhood and a culture of gang violence' with reference to black culture.  Both are of course stereotypes and apply to a subset of those groups, but to the extent that the 'worst' representations of black culture supposedly reflect issues facing blacks as a whole, it seems only fair to call out the worst representations of white culture as possibly 'the real problem' also. 

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Piney
7 hours ago, White Crane Feather said:

Unfortunately, I believe much of what you are saying is a form of selection bias. There is systemic racism no doubt, but the “cruel indifference in white culture” you dramatically speak of is a result of a clear historical progression, and the subsequent very human responses. It’s all statistically verifiable, and what is perceived as systemic racism a natural outcropping of human cognitive behavior. If you do not address the root issues  with scientific scrutiny, the problem cannot be resolved and will be perpetuated. Even more concerning is the confirmation bias that develops in minds that actually cause them to feel oppressed. 

Racism and bias is a purely "learned" behavior.  Parents teach their children it, or in my case mistreatment instills it.

My kids or grandkids aren't racist or bias because I keep my bias inside and don't talk about it to them. 

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White Crane Feather
On 6/15/2020 at 12:10 PM, Liquid Gardens said:

 

As is all human behavior, so I'm not sure why you're bothering to note this.

All racism, all 'isms' are 'natural outcroppings of human cognitive behavior'.  And if you are looking for statistics, there are statistics that support the existence of systemic racism as more than just a 'perception'.

The reason I mentioned 'racism and selfishness and cruel indifference' with respect to white culture is because it is the counterpart to the also 'dramatically' mentioned 'absent father's, single motherhood and a culture of gang violence' with reference to black culture.  Both are of course stereotypes and apply to a subset of those groups, but to the extent that the 'worst' representations of black culture supposedly reflect issues facing blacks as a whole, it seems only fair to call out the worst representations of white culture as possibly 'the real problem' also. 

There are certainly racists out there, and then there is racial bias. Bias is never logical on an individual basis, however, nature has decided that it’s a good idea to assign probabilities to things that have similar traits. It’s an effective survival strategy. The unfortunate truth is that our socioeconomic past has indeed led to black men committing close to 50% of all violent crime. Statistically this means that violent interactions with police should be  heavily skewed towards black men when compared to their proportion of the population (13-17%).  The strangest thing pops out when you look at the statistics of who is killed by police. More Black men are killed by police in proportion to their population, however not in proportion to their participation in violent crime. In fact more white people are killed by police in proportion to their participation in violent crime. More black men being beaten and shot are shown on media where as the redneck guy no one even lifts a Camara. It’s a clear media bias that creates a selection bias in what is really happening. The narrative dosnt fit the facts. 
 

Now systemic bias is made worse because no matter how “woke” a person thinks they are, their brain is still a differential computer calculation probabilities behind the scenes. As long as Black men continue to commit so much violent crime, the brain will always and subconsciously take notice. screaming Racism, and pointing out how “privileged” other people are compared to black people will only make things worse. The only way to logically address the issue is to address the generational poverty created years ago by slaves migrating to cities and then facing Jim Crow laws and segregation. All economic research points to poverty as being heavily correlated and likely the cause of disproportional violence in a sub groups of people.  It’s the core issue. You will never make headway while focusing on the symptom (systemic bias) while not addressing the root issue (generational poverty). The human mind isn’t enlightened enough to not automatically assign more danger and potential for crime to a skin color if indeed people with that skin color are committing so much violent crime in proportion to their population. Instead of fighting lame wars we could have been working on this with billions of dollars. 

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White Crane Feather
On 6/15/2020 at 5:14 PM, Piney said:

Racism and bias is a purely "learned" behavior.  Parents teach their children it, or in my case mistreatment instills it.

My kids or grandkids aren't racist or bias because I keep my bias inside and don't talk about it to them. 

I do think it is learned, however, not just from parents. 

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Piney
14 minutes ago, White Crane Feather said:

I do think it is learned, however, not just from parents. 

Like I said my bias was learned because of mistreatment.

Which was from a couple of ignorant teachers, town residents and my second stepfather's family.  

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