Some people should just take the blue pill.

[nephili]

Is asking questions and seeking the truth always a good thing? Are some people are better off blissfully ignorant?

Some people actually want to know the truth. At all cost. Some people just think they want to know the truth. Once their illusions are shattered, there is no going back. This applies to religion, government, history, science or even family secrets and personal aspects of life.

As Cypher(to me the most fascinating character) says in the Matrix, if he would have known the wasteland he was getting into, he would have told Morpheus to "shove the red pill up his a**." He just wanted to go back to the dreamworld and not remember anything. He wished he never took the red pill.

Are you always doing a person a favor by force feeding them the truth? Can it actually damage someone by toppling the foundations they base their morality and beliefs on?

Edited June 13, 2020 by nephili

[XenoFish]

Even when you present truth or facts to someone, they will always choose to believe whatever they wish to believe. On the rare occasion someone illusions/delusions are shattered, that may or may not be a good thing.

[Piney]

1 hour ago, nephili said:

Are you always doing a person a favor by force feeding them the truth? Can it actually damage someone by toppling the foundations they base their morality and beliefs on?

If their beliefs are about teaching a child to fear a imaginary devil or hell, condone child abuse, condone bias and racism, teach false history, teach a world ending to children, or spread false medical information, I'm more than for it. 

Edited June 13, 2020 by Piney
Where's the red paint?

[+and-then]

38 minutes ago, nephili said:

Are you always doing a person a favor by force feeding them the truth?

I think the far more relevant question is whether we have dismissed all objective measures for what truth IS.  Today it seems that people simply believe what they want to believe and will only look at information that enhances that belief.  I can't imagine a more destructive, dangerous path for a civilization.  

[TigerBright19]

Searching for the answers, but what if Taylor had stopped and listened to Dr. Zaius and not explored the forbidden zone.

 

 

 

 

 

Sometimes it is better to live in ignorance.

 

 

[Orphalesion]

I'm honestly not sure.
My experience is, even if you live in blissful ignorance, reality will sooner or later come barging in and bite you. And often that bite wouldn't have been quite as sharp if you had faced reality to begin with and had acquired the tools to prevent or mitigate the damage.

Yet, at the same time.. I'm not quite sure how to put it into words, since I'm rather tired, but.... The human mind has an amazing capacity to strive for and believe in happiness despite the darker aspects of reality and sometimes that can include working with an illusion. And I guess as long as that doesn't become excessive or causes harm to yourself and others there might not be anything wrong with it.
The old saying; gotta believe in something. It can have benefits. Just don't turn it into dogma and use it to punish, frighten, condemn or persecute others.

Of course I don't mean to say that belief necessarily includes illusions or fooling yourself, belief can be genuine. Just that I've observed many people who professed that they believe in nothing suddenly clinging to something during times of crisis. And if it helps, nothing wrong with that. 

Edited June 13, 2020 by Orphalesion

[Unusual Tournament]

3 hours ago, nephili said:

Is asking questions and seeking the truth always a good thing? Are some people are better off blissfully ignorant?

Some people actually want to know the truth. At all cost. Some people just think they want to know the truth. Once their illusions are shattered, there is no going back. This applies to religion, government, history, science or even family secrets and personal aspects of life.

As Cypher(to me the most fascinating character) says in the Matrix, if he would have known the wasteland he was getting into, he would have told Morpheus to "shove the red pill up his a**." He just wanted to go back to the dreamworld and not remember anything. He wished he never took the red pill.

Are you always doing a person a favor by force feeding them the truth? Can it actually damage someone by toppling the foundations they base their morality and beliefs on?

This is a topic i have been pondering for quite some time and I'm very opinionated. So i hope i don't offend or somehow come across as all knowing. Far from it I'm not. But quite simply when one deals in absolutes like black and white - right - wrong, good - evil or in this case the Red and Blue pill simply has no argument other than perpetuating an unreasonable fantasy. So yes the red pill is just as much a fantasy as the blue one and taking both wrong. 

Life doesn't work in the way that the matrix does. You gotta look at life for what its basic function is i.e. to pass on information by evolving. Nothing to do with fighting fears and demons or being someone you were "born to be" as with Neo.The concept of the red and blue pill does not empower the taker but rather limits him/her. Takes the person who takes the red pill back to a default setting and the blue pill into hibernation. Wipes away (like you say) the foundations of their morality and existence, literary killing any ability to evolve or grow personally. So when you mess with the basic tenets of life and stop evolution by either reverting to default setting or staying stagnate you're messing with nature.

Its the wasteland that drives us. Not the question. Your experiences and the choices you make not those that others make for you that are best denominators for happiness. The Blue and Red pills are only the polar ends. Its the bits in-between that matter. So for the Matrix to be realistic Neo would have to have also been offered a Green pill. Self determination to be what he wants to be. So i find the characters of both Neo and Cypher constraint and in prisoned.   

The divergent series takes the concept of the evils of pigeon holing and labelling people and their qualities or accepting their limitations one step further. We have people broken down to their basic units and reassembled within the structure of the community that best defines their character and nature. Theoretically life should be bliss in the reality of truth. Yet we learn that this is not the case and a new evil rises. One of control where anyone that shows multiple facets of the accepted 5 or different ones are punished. Those that can't be accepted. No evolution or growth occurs just the lucky ones that have been accepted and those that have not. YET its those that have not that live free-er lives. Beyond limitations. Harder yet they take control at their own pace. 

So are you really helping someone telling them the truth. No one knows till it happens because the truth is not always pleasant and positive. You throw a dice and take a chance. Truth doesn't equal happiness or growth. More often than not it precedes destruction. What comes from that destruction is anyones guess. Thats why they say any man that messes with another mans destiny has no destiny of his own. 

  

[+Hammerclaw]

People choose to believe what they want to believe and refuse to know what they'd rather know not. Secular, religious, it doesn't matter; you'll evoke the same reaction, get the same knee-jerk hysterical response if you try. 

"I am just a poor boy though my story's seldom told
I have squandered my resistance for a pocketful of mumbles,
Such are promises, all lies and jest,
Still a man hears what he wants to hear
And disregards the rest, "                            Simon and Garfunkel   "The Boxer."

Edited June 13, 2020 by Hammerclaw

[XenoFish]

This reminds me of the battle between bleak pessimism and pollyanna optimism. I think it comes down to willful ignorance. You either want to know what is true or you simply don't. Every thread on here can be seen as a Red pill, Blue pill dynamic. Then again there is the problem of 'false positives' that's rampant. 

[Jodie.Lynne]

I think we have an obligation to present the truth, especially if false beliefs can be harmful.

In a perfect world, the truthsayers would be able to overcome the false ideas and notions of others, However, we live in a far from perfect world, and we live in a reality where "opinion" is equated with "fact". Where the layman's opinion is as valid as the expert's knowledge.

When facts contradict a persons opinions, beliefs, and 'feelings', too many people reject the truth in favor of their fantasy worldview.

Edited June 13, 2020 by Jodie.Lynne

[kartikg]

I feel people have tried living the truth or reality from beginning, which has lead to so many wars and suffering, history there as been no peace like now, violence was everywhere, now if we think that ignorance as lead to some sort of peace, let it continue. 

[+Hammerclaw]

Sime people reject "facts", in favor of their favorite "truths".  This gigantic artifact called civilization is an illusion. Step outside it, even briefly,  you'll chance being eaten by a bear, mauled by a mountain lion, or washed over a precipice by a swiftly moving stream in what is quaintly called a "Park". Yet, wrapped inside it's cozy embrace with all our creature comforts, we fancy ourselves the lords of creation.

[Jodie.Lynne]

28 minutes ago, kartikg said:

there as been no peace like now, violence was everywhere

I'm sorry, but what planet do you live on? Because it obviously isn't Earth.

[XenoFish]

16 minutes ago, Hammerclaw said:

Sime people reject "facts", in favor of their favorite "truths".  This gigantic artifact called civilization is an illusion. Step outside it, even briefly,  you'll chance being eaten by a bear, mauled by a mountain lion, or washed over a precipice by a swiftly moving stream in what is quaintly called a "Park". Yet, wrapped inside it's cozy embrace with all our creature comforts, we fancy ourselves the lords of creation.

Everything that is a part of civilization is an illusion, a comfortable lie that we maintain in order to create what we consider order. It's all a game of pretend. 

[kartikg]

5 minutes ago, Jodie.Lynne said:

I'm sorry, but what planet do you live on? Because it obviously isn't Earth.

According to historians, currently we are in the most peaceful time than ever, you can look it up. 

[Bendy Demon]

1 hour ago, kartikg said:

According to historians, currently we are in the most peaceful time than ever, you can look it up. 

Historians say a lot of things apparently; much of it is either one-sided, slanted or blatantly false. So far I see little 'peace' in the human world..much strife, war, greed, hatred, intolerance and delusional mindsets.

Anyways, like stones in the field that work their way to the surface,truth always finds its way to the surface of reality and can't be ignored no matter how many blindfolds you wear and scream "LALALALALALALALA!!!". Truth is what it is, it is not meant to be bad or good but our delusions ad wishful thinking can make its impact far more devastating than need be.

The longer we (collectively speaking) insist on wallowing in willful ignorance, the more forceful the truth will be until until we (collectively speaking) are forced to face it head on and acknowledge it.

[kartikg]

2 hours ago, Bendy Demon said:

Historians say a lot of things apparently; much of it is either one-sided, slanted or blatantly false. So far I see little 'peace' in the human world..much strife, war, greed, hatred, intolerance and delusional mindsets.

Anyways, like stones in the field that work their way to the surface,truth always finds its way to the surface of reality and can't be ignored no matter how many blindfolds you wear and scream "LALALALALALALALA!!!". Truth is what it is, it is not meant to be bad or good but our delusions ad wishful thinking can make its impact far more devastating than need be.

The longer we (collectively speaking) insist on wallowing in willful ignorance, the more forceful the truth will be until until we (collectively speaking) are forced to face it head on and acknowledge it.

Can you please tell me what truth is that ppl 

Are ignoring. 

[XenoFish]

@nephili

Good to see you back.

[nephili]

7 hours ago, Jodie.Lynne said:

I think we have an obligation to present the truth

I don't think this is always true. I like to use movies to keep it familiar.

In the Green Mile, as Delacroix is about to be executed, they tell him they will take Mr. Jingles to the mouse circus. They do this to give him a small amount of comfort in an uncomfortable situation. It's hard to tell if he actually believes there is really a mouse circus or if he's diluting himself for the sake of the kind gesture.

As he's in the electric chair Percy looks him in the eyes to say, "There's no such place. It's a fairy tale these guys made up to keep you quiet." It's the truth. There is no mouse circus. But the intentions of the truth was to take his comfort from him. It was only to hurt him.

If someone finds comfort in something, why would you be obligated to take that?

 

[nephili]

2 hours ago, XenoFish said:

@nephili

Good to see you back.

Good to be back.

[Jodie.Lynne]

3 minutes ago, nephili said:

If someone finds comfort in something, why would you be obligated to take that?

Was there any harm in telling Delacroix a mistruth? Is there danger in telling children about Santa, the Tooth Fairy, or the Easter Bunny? No, there is a difference between harmless fibs, and outright lies.

If a loved one sincerely believed that rubbing rhubarb on their head would cure their cancer, and they eschewed all forms of convential treatment, would you allow them to "find comfort" in their belief?

[nephili]

9 minutes ago, Jodie.Lynne said:

If a loved one sincerely believed that rubbing rhubarb on their head would cure their cancer, and they eschewed all forms of convential treatment, would you allow them to "find comfort" in their belief?

I honestly don't know. I've been in a personal situation that was the reason I thought about putting the subject out for discussion like this. I respect the views and opinions of some people on here. Thought it could be good to get some feedback on the subject.

I think the rubbing rhubarb on the head is very funny.

[Jodie.Lynne]

12 hours ago, nephili said:

I honestly don't know.

That is a little disturbing. 

[Grim Reaper 6]

21 hours ago, kartikg said:

I feel people have tried living the truth or reality from beginning, which has lead to so many wars and suffering, history there as been no peace like now, violence was everywhere, now if we think that ignorance as lead to some sort of peace, let it continue. 

I don't understand what you mean by there has been no peace like now? We must live in different worlds because there is war all over the world, and people are suffering and dying. Not much has changed in my opinion, man has not lost his thirst for domination, and in almost all cases Religion is tied into or has directly caused it. That is the same thing that has been going on for the last 500 years or more. I believe that to find true peace, that will last, religion must be taken out of the picture or at least that's where mankind needs to start. 

Peace

[Horta]

I have noticed this opinion can annoy but, oh well.

I think we are far more limited this way than we think we are, and the term "choosing" what to believe is a misnomer. To the point that it might actually be impossible for someone to genuinely choose what to believe.

The best we can do is take in a range of information on any issue and hopefully remain open to possibilities. The brain will parse it, but what it finds believable isn't actually a choice. Belief is something like love, it's either there or it isn't. I doubt it can be forced. If you doubt it, try choosing to believe something that you otherwise don't find believable, see how it goes. It's likely to be as successful as choosing to fall in love with someone you don't love.