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Davros of Skaro

Cosmology & Embryology in the Quran

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Davros of Skaro

How did 1400 years of uncorrupted Quran know about these things?

Cosmology

Quran (Pickthall)

"21.030 Have not those who disbelieve known that the heavens and the earth were of one piece (Gen. 1:2a "the earth was a formless void and darkness covered the face of the deep,"), then We parted them (Gen. 1:6b "let it separate the waters from the waters."), and we made every living thing of water (Gen. 1:20a "And God said, "Let the waters bring forth swarms of living creatures,")? Will they not then believe?"

"25.053 And He it is Who hath given independence to the two seas (though they meet); (Prov. 8:28-29 see below) one palatable, sweet, and the other saltish, bitter; and hath set a bar and a forbidding ban between them. (Gen. 1:6a "And God said, “Let there be a dome in the midst of the waters,"'

"25.054a And He it is Who hath created man from water, (Gen. 2:6b-7a "water the whole face of the ground" - "then the LORD God formed man from the dust of the ground,", 23.012 "Verily We created man from a product of wet earth")

"27.061 Is not He (best) Who made the earth a fixed abode, (1 Sam. 2:8b see below) ...and hath set a barrier between the two seas (Gen. 1:7 see below)? Is there any God beside Allah ? Nay, but most of them know not!"

"35.012 "And the two seas are not alike: this, fresh, sweet, good to drink, (Gen. 2:6a "but a stream would rise from the earth,") this (other) bitter, salt. (Gen. 1:10ab "God called the dry land Earth, and the waters that were gathered together he called Seas.") And from them both ye eat fresh meat and derive the ornament that ye wear. And thou seest the ship cleaving them with its prow that ye may seek of His bounty, and that haply ye may give thanks."

"55.019 He hath loosed the two seas. They meet. 55.020 There is a barrier between them. (Psa. 148:4-6 see below) They encroach not (one upon the other)."

Why is the sky blue? Just go outside on clear day, and look up. You can clearly see all 360° of the molten glass dome firmament (Job 37:18 see below) coming down that set apart Heaven's ocean when God separated the preexisting waters (from below divided to above). God then separated the remaining water below "he called Seas" to reveal the preexisting land (no creatio ex nihilo), and God then affixed lights to the dome (Gen. 1:14--17, Quran; *15.016, *37.006, 41.012, *67.005, 85.001 *15.016-.018, 37.006-.010, 67.005; Shooting stars ward off devils that try to eavesdrop on God's high council of archangels).

https://www.webpages.uidaho.edu/ngier/gre13.htm

Gen. 1:6-8, :9-10, :14-17, :20, 7:11d, Qur. 54.011, 8:2bc (NRSV)

"6 And God said, “Let there be a dome in the midst of the waters, and let it separate the waters from the waters.” 7 So God made the dome and separated the waters that were under the dome from the waters that were above the dome. And it was so. 8 God called the dome Sky. And there was evening and there was morning, the second day."

"9 And God said, “Let the waters under the sky be gathered together into one place, and let the dry land appear.” And it was so. 10 God called the dry land Earth, and the waters that were gathered together he called Seas. And God saw that it was good."

"14 And God said, “Let there be lights in the dome of the sky to separate the day from the night; and let them be for signs and for seasons and for days and years, 15 and let them be lights in the dome of the sky to give light upon the earth.” And it was so. 16 God made the two great lights—the greater light to rule the day and the lesser light to rule the night—and the stars. 17 God set them in the dome of the sky to give light upon the earth,"

"20 And God said, “Let the waters bring forth swarms of living creatures, and let birds fly above the earth across the dome of the sky.”

"11d ...and the windows of the heavens were opened."

"54.011 Then opened We the gates of heaven with pouring water"

"2bc the windows of the heavens were closed, the rain from the heavens was restrained,"

Isa. 24:18b

"18 For the windows of heaven are opened, and the foundations of the earth tremble."

Psa. 148:4-6

"4 Praise him, you highest heavens, and you waters above the heavens! 5 Let them praise the name of the LORD, for he commanded and they were created. 6 He established them forever and ever; he fixed their bounds, which cannot be passed."

Deut. 28:12a-b

"12a-b The Lord will open for you his rich storehouse, the heavens, to give the rain of your land in its season and to bless all your undertakings."

Job 23:12, :14c

"12 “Is not God high in the heavens? See the highest stars, how lofty they are!" "14c ...and he walks on the dome of heaven.’"

Job 37:18

"18 Can you, like him, spread out the skies, hard as a molten mirror?"

The Earth is a flat circle set on foundations/pillars that are submerged in water all encased in a dome where the two waters meet yet are separated.

Prov. 8:27-29

"27 When he established the heavens, I was there, when he drew a circle on the face of the deep, 28 when he made firm the skies above, when he established the fountains of the deep, 29 when he assigned to the sea its limit, so that the waters might not transgress his command, when he marked out the foundations of the earth,"

Deut. 4:18b

"18b ...the likeness of any fish that is in the water under the earth."

Isa. 40:22

"22 It is he who sits above the circle of the earth, and its inhabitants are like grasshoppers; who stretches out the heavens like a curtain, and spreads them like a tent to live in;"

Dan. 4:10

"10  Upon my bed this is what I saw; there was a tree at the center of the earth, and its height was great."

Job 9:6

"6bc ...who shakes the earth out of its place, and its pillars tremble;"

1 Sam. 2:8b

"8 For the pillars of the earth are the Lord’s, and on them he has set the world."

Psa. 75:3c, 82:5c, 102:25a, 104:5

"3c ...it is I who keep its pillars steady."

"5c ...all the foundations of the earth are shaken."

"25a Long ago you laid the foundation of the earth,"

"5 You set the earth on its foundations, so that it shall never be shaken."

The Sun orbits the Earth.

Ecc. 1:5

"5 The sun rises and the sun goes down, and hurries to the place where it rises."

Jos. 10:12-14

"12 On the day when the Lord gave the Amorites over to the Israelites, Joshua spoke to the Lord; and he said in the sight of Israel, “Sun, stand still at Gibeon, and Moon, in the valley of Aijalon." 13 And the sun stood still, and the moon stopped, until the nation took vengeance on their enemies. Is this not written in the Book of Jashar? The sun stopped in midheaven, and did not hurry to set for about a whole day. 14 There has been no day like it before or since, when the Lord heeded a human voice; for the Lord fought for Israel."

Psa. 19:1, :4c-6

"1 The heavens are telling the glory of God; and the firmament proclaims his handiwork." "4c ...In the heavens he has set a tent for the sun, 5 which comes out like a bridegroom from his wedding canopy, and like a strong man runs its course with joy. 6 Its rising is from the end of the heavens, and its circuit to the end of them; and nothing is hid from its heat."

Qur.

"21.033bc ...the sun and the moon. They float, each in an orbit."

"36.040 It is not for the sun to overtake the moon, nor doth the night outstrip the day. They float each in an orbit."

"55.005 The sun and the moon are made punctual."

The Moon it's own light.

Gen. 1:16ab

"16ab God made the two great lights — the greater light to rule the day and the lesser light to rule the night"

Qur.

"71.016 And hath made the moon a light therein, and made the sun a lamp?"

"25.061 Blessed be He Who hath placed in the heaven mansions of the stars, and hath placed therein a great lamp and a moon giving light!"

The Earth orbits the Sun by the force of gravity. Gravity is not nothing.

Job 26:7b

"7b ...and hangs the earth upon nothing."

"Finally, it is worth pointing out that the world picture of the Jewish people, as reconstructed from various passages in the Bible, was essentially the same as that of the Egyptians and the Babylonians. ...The flat, disc-shaped Earth is surrounded by a sea; beneath the Earth, there are wells and fountains connected with the upper part of the Earth as well as with the great deep, called Tehom. The Earth rests on pillars, and above it is the sky or firmament. Waters are to be found not only on the Earth or beneath it, but also above the firmament."

Helge S. Kragh, Conception of Cosmos, pp. 10

Qur.

"2.029b ...Then turned He to the heaven, and fashioned it as seven heavens." (see also 17.044, 23.017, 23.086, 041.012, 65.012, 67.003, 71.015, 78.012)

"Closely associated with Kabbalah was the concept of the soul’s journey through the seven heavens, the Hekhalot—palaces—inhabited by the planetary powers,..."

Nicholas Campion, Astrology and Cosmology in the Worlds Religions, pp. 145

"Such, then, according to latest scholarship, are the fundamental features of the ancient Babylonian world concept. ...The two central seven staged pyramids represent respectively the upper and lower halves of E-KUR, the earth. The seven dotted half circles above the earth represent the "seven heavens" of the planets; the corresponding hemispheres below the earth the "seven hells". The outermost sphere...the sphere girdled by the many mansioned Zodiac,..."

William F Warren, The Earliest Cosmologies, pp. 38-39

Qur.

"78.017 Lo! the Day of Decision is a fixed time, 78.018 A day when the trumpet is blown and ye come in multitudes, 78.019 And the heaven is opened and becometh as gates, 78.020 And the hills are set in motion and become as a mirage. 78.021 Lo! hell lurketh in ambush, 78.022 A home for the rebellious. 78.023 They will abide therein for ages."

"39.073 And those who keep their duty to their Lord are driven unto the Garden in troops till, when they reach it, and the gates thereof are opened, and the warders thereof say unto them: Peace be unto you! Ye are good, so enter ye (the Garden of delight), to dwell therein; 39.074 They say: Praise be to Allah, Who hath fulfilled His promise unto us and hath made us inherit the land, sojourning in the Garden where we will! So bounteous is the wage of workers."

"38.049 This is a reminder. And lo! for those who ward off (evil) is a happy journey's end, 38.050 Gardens of Eden, whereof the gates are opened for them, 38.051 Wherein, reclining, they call for plenteous fruit and cool drink (that is) therein."

"7.040 Lo! they who deny Our revelations and scorn them, for them the gates of heaven will nor be opened not will they enter the Garden until the camel goeth through the needle's eye. Thus do We requite the guilty."

"39.071 And those who disbelieve are driven unto hell in troops till, when they reach it and the gates thereof are opened, and the warders thereof say unto them: Came there not unto you messengers of your own, reciting unto you the revelations of your Lord and warning you of the meeting of this your Day ? they say: Yea, verily. But the word of doom of disbelievers is fulfilled. 39.072 It is said (unto them): Enter ye the gates of hell to dwell therein. Thus hapless is the journey's end of the scorners."

"15.043 And lo! for all such, hell will be the promised place. "15.044 It hath seven gates, and each gate hath an appointed portion."

"040.070 Those who deny the Scripture and that wherewith We send Our messengers. But they will come to know, 040.071 When carcans are about their necks and chains. They are dragged 040.072 Through boiling waters; then they are thrust into the Fire."

"16.029 So enter the gates of hell, to dwell therein for ever. Woeful indeed will be the lodging of the arrogant."

"16.104 Lo! those who disbelieve the revelations of Allah, Allah guideth them not and theirs will be a painful doom. 16.105 Only they invent falsehood who believe not Allah's revelations, and (only) they are the liars."

"85.010 Lo! they who persecute believing men and believing women and repent not, theirs verily will be the doom of hell, and theirs the doom of burning."

"43.074 Lo! the guilty are immortal in hell's torment."

  • Haha 2

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Davros of Skaro

Embryology

Quran (Pickthall)

"23.012 Verily We created man from a product of wet earth;"

There's not even a basic description of "abiogenesis". This is where base chemicals formed together in result initiated self replicating systems where over billions/millions of years brought about the diversity of life on Earth.

Instead this is a reference to Genesis where Yahweh formed man (Adam) from clay, and breathed his spirit into him. This is actually a reworking of polytheistic mythology of ancient Sumeria. The myth is that a pantheon of Gods got tired of the labor involved to make bread, so they created man (from clay and slain God blood) to do the work. The Bible recasts several of these myths from polytheism to monotheism to propagandize a "Chosen People" to unite loose bands of nomadic tribes (advantageous for defense & food production). The use of the word "We" in scripture is a remnant of this polytheism.

It would be impressive if the verse said along the lines of "See the stars at night above you? Verily I created man from such of these long ago; from these when the light gone out, I then created with great patience, and many creations before man."

The verse is not necessarily an outright error, but skepticism reveals how much it's lacking in miraculous knowledge. The Muslim will say along the lines of "The wet earth/clay has the elements we are made of". But it's just repeating older mythos, not a process that reflects our current knowledge.

"23.013 Then placed him as a drop (of seed) in a safe lodging;"

This is just an observation in that male copulates (implants drop/seed) with female, then the female's stomach grows (implanted drop/seed resting place).

There's no mention of millions of sperm from the male's ejaculate that most of the time a single sperm fertilizes an egg from the female.

An all knowing deity can do much better than what can be ascertained from what happens from having sex. It's vagueness keeps it safe from the verdict of error, but in no way is it miraculous knowledge.

"23.014a Then fashioned We the drop a clot,"

Still no mention of an ovum/egg getting fertilized, but what it assumes is most revealing.

Ancient Greek/Roman biological knowledge was of the belief that the semen contained the whole person to be incubated in the womb. There's some that argued since that children have some traits of the mother it was because the semen mixed with menstrual fluid (clotted up blood) from the mother. Is this what we see here; "fashioned" the "drop" a "clot"? The semen looks to be clotted up just like the ancient belief of semen mixing with menstrual blood to bring on a mix of both traits of the parents.

Sperm is from the testicles, but semen which is a viscous medium (transportation purposes for sperm to swim in, and get sprayed further in the womb) is from the seminal sac. The seminal sac is located internally in the pelvis region. The Quran sees semen as the progenitor (the point that "clot" is the mixing with mentstrual blood is besides the point thanks to it's vagueness) of babies as evidenced in "86.005-86.007".

"86.005 So let man consider from what he is created. 86.006 He is created from a gushing fluid 86.007 That issued from between the loins and ribs."

"Loin: the part of the body on each side of the spinal column and between the hip and the lower ribs" Merriam-Webster Dictionary

It's of great stress among Muslim apologists that the Quran does not place the seminal sac higher than the pelvis region (there's some ancient Greek thinking that semen originates from the organs going down the spinal column). The point is that the Quran sees semen as the drop/seed which man is created. No mention of sperm from the testicles that gets injected with the semen during ejaculation. Then the semen turns into a "clot" which conforms more to bloody menstruation rather than an egg.

This is where Muslims play musical translations. Muslims praise classical arabic as "high literature" when it's just sloppy language, and cheat by giving words multiple meanings (for example "drop" turns to sperm and "clot" turns to egg/ovum/zygote).

"23.014b then fashioned We the clot a little lump,"

This is just an observation that a baby grows in the womb. Is "clot" an egg fertilized with sperm, or semen mixed with blood which the latter is of attested ancient belief?

No miracle knowledge here (the baby grows). Muslims turn "lump" to "leach" (looks similar to an early fetus) to make it look like divine knowledge, but an all knowing deity could have prevented this confusion from the start by not being so vague

"23.014c then fashioned We the little lump bones,

Actually a framework matrix of cartilage forms which over time is replaced as bone, but not all of it.

"Bone is a replacement tissue; that is, it uses a model tissue on which to lay down its mineral matrix. For skeletal development, the most common template is cartilage. During fetal development, a framework is laid down that determines where bones will form."

"Throughout fetal development and into childhood growth and development, bone forms on the cartilaginous matrix. By the time a fetus is born, most of the cartilage has been replaced with bone. Some additional cartilage will be replaced throughout childhood, and some cartilage remains in the adult skeleton."

https://opentextbc.ca/anatomyandphysiology/chapter/6-4-bone-formation-and-development/#:~:text=In the early stages of,ossification (osteogenesis)%2C begins.

This is just an observation that babies are born with bones.

"023.014d then clothed the bones with flesh,"

NO! This is a blatant error. The framework of cartilage that's replaced over time by bone is internal, not that bones are then clothed with flesh. Muslims play verbal slight of hand tricks (look at this hand not the other technique used by magicians), or glance over it with this one because of its glaring inaccuracy.

Here's some opposing views:

https://youtu.be/iucXt4kW5gk

Embryology in the Quran

https://www.answering-islam.org/Quran/Science/embryo.html

Scientific Miracles in the Quran Debunked

https://youtu.be/rq0_OdIyfjc

"4.082 Will they not then ponder on the Qur'an? If it had been from other than Allah they would have found therein much incongruity."

"2.010 In their hearts is a disease, and Allah increaseth their disease. A painful doom is theirs because they lie."

"2.017 Their likeness is as the likeness of one who kindleth fire, and when it sheddeth its light around him Allah taketh away their light and leaveth them in darkness, where they cannot see, 2.018 Deaf, dumb and blind; and they return not."

"2.039 But they who disbelieve, and deny Our revelations, such are rightful Peoples of the Fire. They will abide therein."

"2.089 And when there cometh unto them a scripture from Allah, confirming that in their possession - though before that they were asking for a signal triumph over those who disbelieved - and when there cometh unto them that which they know (to be the truth) they disbelieve therein. The curse of Allah is on disbelievers."

"2.099 Verily We have revealed unto thee clear tokens, and only miscreants will disbelieve in them."

"2.126b ...He answered: As for him who disbelieveth, I shall leave him in contentment for a while, then I shall compel him to the doom of Fire - a hapless journey's end!"

"2.161 Lo! Those who disbelieve, and die while they are disbelievers; on them is the curse of Allah and of angels and of men combined 2.162 They ever dwell therein. The doom will not be lightened for them, neither will they be reprieved."

"3.130 O ye who believe! Devour not usury, doubling and quadrupling (the sum lent). Observe your duty to Allah, that ye may be successful. 3.131 And ward off (from yourselves) the Fire prepared for disbelievers."

"3.149 O ye who believe! if ye obey those who disbelieve, they will make you turn back on your heels, and ye turn back as losers."

"3.178 And let not those who disbelieve imagine that the rein We give them bodeth good unto their souls. We only give them rein that they may grow in sinfulness. And theirs will be a shameful doom."

"4.056 Lo! Those who disbelieve Our revelations, We shall expose them to the Fire. As often as their skins are consumed We shall exchange them for fresh skins that they may taste the torment. Lo! Allah is ever Mighty, Wise."

"4.137 Lo! those who believe, then disbelieve and then (again) believe, then disbelieve, and then increase in disbelief, Allah will never pardon them, nor will He guide them unto a way."

  • Haha 2

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ChrLzs

TL;DR.

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third_eye

Any minute now... 

Quote

UPI-reporter-close-as-Ruby-shot-Oswald.j

~

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Davros of Skaro
54 minutes ago, ChrLzs said:

TL;DR.

 

50 minutes ago, third_eye said:

Any minute now... 

~

"As for the Disbelievers, Whether thou warn them or thou warn them not it is all one for them; they believe not. Allah hath sealed their hearing and their hearts, and on their eyes there is a covering. Theirs will be an awful doom." (Quran 002.006-.007)

  • Haha 4

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ChrLzs
6 minutes ago, Davros of Skaro said:

 

"As for the Disbelievers, Whether thou warn them or thou warn them not it is all one for them; they believe not. Allah hath sealed their hearing and their hearts, and on their eyes there is a covering. Theirs will be an awful doom." (Quran 002.006-.007)

So you wish death on others.  Nice sentiment - what a lovely, lovely person you are..

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Davros of Skaro
4 minutes ago, ChrLzs said:

So you wish death on others.  Nice sentiment - what a lovely, lovely person you are..

"40.006 Thus was the word of thy Lord concerning those who disbelieve fulfilled: That they are owners of the Fire."

"33.066 On the day when their faces are turned over in the Fire, they say: Oh, would that we had obeyed Allah and had obeyed His messenger!"

a0d42ea29fb46d48657fa155592ec3b3--religi

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third_eye
1 hour ago, Davros of Skaro said:

Theirs will be an awful doom.

What other kinds of doom are there? 

~

  • Haha 2

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Davros of Skaro
4 minutes ago, third_eye said:

What other kinds of doom are there? 

~

There's doom for every flavor.

tumblr_pu2vnzWNmo1xoyw8po1_400.jpg

  • Haha 3

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third_eye
1 minute ago, Davros of Skaro said:

There's doom for every flavor.

So it's whipping and stoning for Doomguy and Rapunzel eh? 

~

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  • Haha 2

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Susanc241

What sort of deity seals the hearts and minds of people so they can’t become believers and condemns them to eternal fire, when it seems this deity wants all to worship him.  Cake and eat it, come to mind.

Bible and Quran written by men (Quran based on biblical texts that were gained from travellers from the Middle East) who wanted control and power and found ways of explaining our existence using the limited knowledge they had, and making up myths for that which they didn’t.  All originate from the Invented gods of more ancient peoples who couldn’t explain nature’s events - thunderstorms, earthquakes, tsunamis, etc etc.  IMO of course.

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Davros of Skaro
4 minutes ago, Susanc241 said:

What sort of deity seals the hearts and minds of people so they can’t become believers and condemns them to eternal fire, when it seems this deity wants all to worship him.  Cake and eat it, come to mind.

Bible and Quran written by men (Quran based on biblical texts that were gained from travellers from the Middle East) who wanted control and power and found ways of explaining our existence using the limited knowledge they had, and making up myths for that which they didn’t.  All originate from the Invented gods of more ancient peoples who couldn’t explain nature’s events - thunderstorms, earthquakes, tsunamis, etc etc.  IMO of course.

At least you get a bunny.

"41.027 But verily We shall cause those who disbelieve to taste an awful doom, and verily We shall requite them the worst of what they used to do. 41.028 That is the reward of Allah's enemies: the Fire. Therein is their immortal home, payment forasmuch as they denied Our revelations."

EB9Ja6HXsAEssv_?format=jpg&name=large

 

  • Haha 3

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Davros of Skaro

I'm possibly expecting a guest to debate this topic. Please treat him as a guest. Even if it spells your increased doom.

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Golden Duck
On 6/19/2020 at 5:18 PM, third_eye said:

What other kinds of doom are there? 

~

2 was better than 1

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third_eye
1 hour ago, Golden Duck said:

2 was better than 1

and 3 was better than 2

~

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