NonlocalConsciousness and the Burden of Proof

[+OverSword]

2 hours ago, spartan max2 said:

The OP link only references that study, it dosen't go in to it in detail (unless I am looking at things wrong).

I would be interested to see the full study.

(If anyone finds it feel free to post for us all lol). 

Scientific papers cite sources. It’s probably there somewhere 

[+OverSword]

2 hours ago, Dejarma said:

what do you mean = seems?? there either is proof or there is not! there is no grey area.

humans lock onto the bleeding obvious.. I'm a professional musician & I can tell you, without doubt, there is no subconscious brain connection

Evidence then, not proof. I’ll bet you a dollar that you didn’t bother to read one sentence of the paper except what I pasted or even click the link. My non local consciousness says so  for sure, no doubt.

 I am also a musician with 40 years under my belt and I can tell you without doubt that you can’t know that. Without doubt it is your belief and that’s fine. 

[+OverSword]

2 hours ago, psyche101 said:

Then surely you see what I mean. That's the result of knowing each other and working with that. It's familiarity rather than networking.

Yes, especially in that example probably.  We also would play our entire set with the lights off. Practice and familiarity. 

[+OverSword]

Here is an experiment which anyone can try, which may have other explanations besides some non local consciousness. Keep in mind the op says something about these networks form outside time. 

When you talk on a cell phone the conversation seems smooth and instantaneous at the same speed as if you’re in the same room. One time I was doing this with a friend on their way over and we continued talking on the phones after he got here for a few seconds. That when I noticed a half second lag between when he spoke and when it came over the phone. It really created a disjointed conversation and felt like before we weren’t face to face that maybe we somehow heard into the future so there wasn’t a pause between sentences. 

Give it a try sometime and let me know what you experience.

Okay, rip me a new one 

[Mr Walker]

On 6/20/2020 at 1:14 AM, OverSword said:

Browsing a paper on non local consciousness and I came across this bit:

Read the rest here

I'm not positive this is the best area to post this but here it is anyway.

Why should/is this seen as an example of non local consciousness? it seems just another example of our conscious abilty to adapt to, and synchronise with, its environment.

[Mr Walker]

On 6/20/2020 at 3:40 AM, papageorge1 said:

Well perhaps even better examples of group consciousness comes from the animal kingdom. For example sterling birds creating flock sky dances. I’ve read I believe by Rupert Sheldrake that the orchestration happens too fast to be explainable by individual physical response to behavior. It is speculated that they enter some group consciousness not explainable as Individual physical reaction.
 

The claim is that there is mathematics and physics showing the failure of a materialist model to explain these aerial dances.  But defending the math and physics is over my pay grade.

could be But i suspect their brains can and do react that quickly. Human brains   certainly can, and while not as complex, bird brains probably also can.

  It is an evolved, synchronised survival trait to avoid predators (fish do the same thing ) It doesn't require extended, conscious, thought.  

[Duke Wellington]

How many people here can say that if they try they can clear their minds of all thoughts and stay like that for a few hours? Slip ups are allowed so long as you can immediately put yourself back into a `no thoughts` state of mind.

Crazy as it sounds I can, and if I allow just one type of though to enter my mind during that and go for a walk, I get it thrown back at me. The think I was allowing myself to think about will crop up in someway. Like in two strangers random conversation, or an event, or something. Its like the universe knows what we are thinking about and uses it to build our experience.

[Mr Walker]

5 hours ago, OverSword said:

Here is an experiment which anyone can try, which may have other explanations besides some non local consciousness. Keep in mind the op says something about these networks form outside time. 

When you talk on a cell phone the conversation seems smooth and instantaneous at the same speed as if you’re in the same room. One time I was doing this with a friend on their way over and we continued talking on the phones after he got here for a few seconds. That when I noticed a half second lag between when he spoke and when it came over the phone. It really created a disjointed conversation and felt like before we weren’t face to face that maybe we somehow heard into the future so there wasn’t a pause between sentences. 

Give it a try sometime and let me know what you experience.

Okay, rip me a new one 

I've talked to my wife a few times in our house, using our mobile phones (usually after mislaying one, and then ringing it to locate it ) I've never noticed any lag at all  (same network /same local tower)  However, i will try it in the conscious knowledge that this might happen. 

[Dejarma]

11 hours ago, OverSword said:

Evidence then, not proof. I’ll bet you a dollar that you didn’t bother to read one sentence of the paper except what I pasted or even click the link. My non local consciousness says so  for sure, no doubt.

 I am also a musician with 40 years under my belt and I can tell you without doubt that you can’t know that. Without doubt it is your belief and that’s fine. 

you can bet all you want mate!

it's my experience after 45 years with thousands of gigs & studio sessions under my belt.

Good experienced musicians who have spent thousands of hours playing & practicing their instrument can easily play along with each other as in the John McLaughlin vid posted earlier because what is happening musically becomes kind of obvious after a while. It comes from you, the individual, not others

[papageorge1]

7 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

could be But i suspect their brains can and do react that quickly. Human brains   certainly can, and while not as complex, bird brains probably also can.

  It is an evolved, synchronised survival trait to avoid predators (fish do the same thing ) It doesn't require extended, conscious, thought.  

Wouldn't the capacity for group consciousness also be an evolutionary advantage trait? Unfortunately I saw the arguments in a book and haven't been able to find a link to the argument of why the physical-only model is not a satisfactory explanation fr the strongest cases.

[Piney]

12 hours ago, OverSword said:

 Keep in mind the op says something about these networks form outside time. 

That breaks all laws of physics. 

Outside of spacetime would be outside the universe. Then nobody would be connected.

Birds sync up because of a piece of magnetite in their beaks and they are all following the same magnetic field patterns. Contrary to what Walker spouted birds also have many, many more neurons jammed closer together. 

 

[Piney]

20 hours ago, OverSword said:

Agreed. Does not explain the experiment with healers apparently having an effect on a people’s mri scans who don’t know the healer is working on them from the next room. Hit the link and check out my source. Keep in mind it’s not an article it’s a peer reviewed paper.

No, it's not. Any smoe can submit anything to ResearchGate. 

The healer study he cited was taken from a pseudo-journal listed on Quackwatch  and known for false claims.

His distortion of quantum biology is crankage too. Quantum biology has to do with metabolism. 

@spartan max2  I can't find any peer reviewed papers. Just pseudo-journal sources. 

 

[+OverSword]

11 hours ago, Dejarma said:

you can bet all you want mate!

it's my experience after 45 years with thousands of gigs & studio sessions under my belt.

Good experienced musicians who have spent thousands of hours playing & practicing their instrument can easily play along with each other as in the John McLaughlin vid posted earlier because what is happening musically becomes kind of obvious after a while. It comes from you, the individual, not others

Now don’t get me wrong I’m because you have to right. I’m not saying that is because of or an example of anything. I’m saying you can’t KNOW  that it’s not. That’s all I’ve said to you.

[Grim Reaper 6]

17 hours ago, Cookie Monster said:

How many people here can say that if they try they can clear their minds of all thoughts and stay like that for a few hours? Slip ups are allowed so long as you can immediately put yourself back into a `no thoughts` state of mind.

Crazy as it sounds I can, and if I allow just one type of though to enter my mind during that and go for a walk, I get it thrown back at me. The think I was allowing myself to think about will crop up in someway. Like in two strangers random conversation, or an event, or something. Its like the universe knows what we are thinking about and uses it to build our experience.

In my world we call that mediation, and anyone can learn to do it, it's isn't magical  or even though provoking it's just a relaxation skill, that in my opinion is as good as sleep if not better at times.

Peace

Edited June 22, 2020 by Manwon Lender

[Grim Reaper 6]

22 hours ago, OverSword said:

Here is an experiment which anyone can try, which may have other explanations besides some non local consciousness. Keep in mind the op says something about these networks form outside time. 

When you talk on a cell phone the conversation seems smooth and instantaneous at the same speed as if you’re in the same room. One time I was doing this with a friend on their way over and we continued talking on the phones after he got here for a few seconds. That when I noticed a half second lag between when he spoke and when it came over the phone. It really created a disjointed conversation and felt like before we weren’t face to face that maybe we somehow heard into the future so there wasn’t a pause between sentences. 

Give it a try sometime and let me know what you experience.

Okay, rip me a new one 

Since you were both using a cellphone it is most likely that your signals  were pinging off the same cell tower. lags in these system do occur and they can be caused by large amounts data being sent through that Tower. 

Here is an example of what I am taking about above, I this link my help you understand what happened.

https://callercallsback.com/etiquette-meets-physics-dealing-with-lag-1cffdc1b1ed8

Peace

[Grim Reaper 6]

On 6/20/2020 at 1:06 AM, Piney said:

 

I think there is a human group consciousness to a certain extent and the connection can be made stronger among groups and between individuals. 

I agree with you take Identical twins for instance, apparently can feel pain that the other twin suffers even when they are separated by miles. Some also claim that they can hear the other thoughts and vis versa, is this an illusion, I don't claim to know.

here is an article  that says they don't have the abilities I articulated above, but there are some interesting facts that still may add to this conversation.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/health/2016-08-06/myths-and-facts-about-twins/7694586

Peace

[Mr Walker]

12 hours ago, papageorge1 said:

Wouldn't the capacity for group consciousness also be an evolutionary advantage trait? Unfortunately I saw the arguments in a book and haven't been able to find a link to the argument of why the physical-only model is not a satisfactory explanation fr the strongest cases.

I guess it depends what you define as group consciousness 

Because all human brains are basically identical, a group of people will react similarly to any stimuli.

However because every human MIND is different we may also  respond differently 

eg emotional responses like fear or attraction are basically identical in different human brains But two people might see a moth. One is attracted to it, the other is fearful of it 

[Piney]

1 hour ago, Manwon Lender said:

I agree with you take Identical twins for instance, apparently can feel pain that the other twin suffers even when they are separated by miles. Some also claim that they can hear the other thoughts and vis versa, is this an illusion, I don't claim to know.

That sounds like a claim made on Oprah. 

[papageorge1]

1 hour ago, Mr Walker said:

I guess it depends what you define as group consciousness 

Because all human brains are basically identical, a group of people will react similarly to any stimuli.

However because every human MIND is different we may also  respond differently 

eg emotional responses like fear or attraction are basically identical in different human brains But two people might see a moth. One is attracted to it, the other is fearful of it 

Well I see humans and animals as having physical bodies but also astral/mental bodies. For the group consciousness in the Starling Flock example I see co-ordination by the group soul influencing the flock of mental bodies it is incarnating. 

 

 

[Duke Wellington]

So science doesnt yet understand what consciousness is or how it works. This is largely down to limitations in technology at this point in history so all it has to go off is interviewing people, and self-reflection of the scientists. But in the mystical philosophical systems that exist they do have an understanding including non-local consciousness.

Here is the Tree of Life: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tree_of_life_(Kabbalah)#/media/File:Tree_of_life_bahir_Hebrew.svg 

It should be pointed out that many religions have a similar tree, or take a different approach to explaining the same things. My understanding is as follows.

Crown: The top of the tree is a state of consciousness which is the same as Gods. It is simply a state of mind where no thoughts occur.

Left & Right Columns: The experiences we encounter in life which knock us out of a state of mind where we have no thoughts. For example when someone annoys us we experience anger, and our mind focuses on it with thoughts going around and around.

Centre Column: The easy path up to the crown where we have to manage our thinking activity in response to the experiences we have in life. We have to learn not to dwell on them, to let go and move on.

Now there are also paths from the left & right columns that lead to the crown but these are based on suffering. We encounter an experience that does our heads in so much that we are forced to put the thoughts we have with it out of our minds. To stop those thoughts from arising. The left & right columns are paths to the no thought state where we learn the hard way.

The 32 names of God in Kabbalah all represent different qualities of God. Such as God is compassionate, forgiving, wrathful, etc. Each is the way out of certain negative experiences we have in the left & right columns. When we learn each one then we can move up to the state of no thoughts occurring in our minds.

When we can achieve the state of having no thoughts, and we keep ourselves in it, then non-local consciousness is revealed to us. If we go for a few hours shutting down all thoughts in our minds, except one thought, then that thought crops up in reality. It drives what we encounter and unfolds in our lives. At that point we realise how God creates.

[XenoFish]

I wonder how much mirror neurons play a part in this.

[psyche101]

2 hours ago, XenoFish said:

I wonder how much mirror neurons play a part in this.

Quite a lot I would suspect.

[+joc]

Nothing really syncs in my brain until the second cup of coffee.  ...just sayin'

[+OverSword]

11 hours ago, Manwon Lender said:

Since you were both using a cellphone it is most likely that your signals  were pinging off the same cell tower. lags in these system do occur and they can be caused by large amounts data being sent through that Tower. 

Here is an example of what I am taking about above, I this link my help you understand what happened.

https://callercallsback.com/etiquette-meets-physics-dealing-with-lag-1cffdc1b1ed8

Peace

Yeah but the strange part was there was not a half second delay after one of us spoke before the other answered until we were in the same room, which made it feel like we must have been answering before the other was finished. A bit like being in the future of the conversation.

[+Liquid Gardens]

On 6/19/2020 at 8:58 PM, OverSword said:

I suppose that nothing as grand as a hive mind is formed. It showed that the participant musicians mind synced up I think. 

I was confused at the references to music.  Musicians playing together 'sync up' in that they are able to all play at a certain tempo and for 99% of music (outside of free jazz and the like) there is a set chord progression.  Since musicians can accomplish the same thing by just playing with a backing track on youtube, that has no consciousness obviously, not sure why playing with other musicians would require a non-local consciousness then.