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OverSword

NonlocalConsciousness and the Burden of Proof

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OverSword
18 minutes ago, Liquid Gardens said:

I was confused at the references to music.  Musicians playing together 'sync up' in that they are able to all play at a certain tempo and for 99% of music (outside of free jazz and the like) there is a set chord progression.  Since musicians can accomplish the same thing by just playing with a backing track on youtube, that has no consciousness obviously, not sure why playing with other musicians would require a non-local consciousness then.

I don't think require was part of it.  Here, read it again.

Quote

Johanna Sänger, leading a team at the Max Planck Institute for Human Development in Berlin, reports that when musicians play duets, their brains synchronize. The detail in the data is so fine that they can distinguish which musician is playing lead and which is playing backup. “When people coordinate actions with one another, small networks within the brain and, remarkably, between the brains are formed, especially when the activities need to be precisely aligned in time, for example at the joint play onset of a piece,” says Sänger.

I think it sounds less outrageous if the last thing you read on it wasn't some alleged professional musician scoff at it like a nobleman outraged that a commoner may be as good as he is at something besides working in a field.

Edited by OverSword
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OverSword
20 hours ago, Piney said:

No, it's not. Any smoe can submit anything to ResearchGate. 

The healer study he cited was taken from a pseudo-journal listed on Quackwatch  and known for false claims.

His distortion of quantum biology is crankage too. Quantum biology has to do with metabolism. 

@spartan max2  I can't find any peer reviewed papers. Just pseudo-journal sources. 

 

Actually citations at the end.  Some are university publications.

Quote

 

ENDNOTES

1. Panitchayangkoon G, Hayes D, Fransted

KA, et al. Long-lived quantum coherence

in photosynthetic complexes at physiolog-

ical temperature. Proc Natl Acad SciUSA.

2010;107:12766-12770.

2. Schwartz S, Dossey L. Nonlocality, inten-

tion, and observer effects in healing stud-

ies: laying a foundation for the future. In:

Miller L (ed).The Oxford Handbook of Psychol-

ogy and Spirituality Oxford: Oxford

University Press; 2012, p. 531-547.

3. Making music together connects brains.

Science Daily. 2012. Available at: http://

www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2012/11/

121129093417.htm. Accessed November

29, 2012.

4. Bowden EM, Jung-Beeman M. Aha! In-

sight experience correlates with solution ac-

tivation in the right hemisphere. Psychon

Bull Rev. 2003;10:730-737.

5. Jung-Beeman M, Bowden EM, Haberman J, et

al. Neural activity when people solve verbal

problems with insight. PLoS Biol. 2004;2:E97.

6. Achterberg J, Cooke K, Richards T, Standish

LJ, Kozak L, Lake J. Evidence for correlations

between distant intentionality and brain

function in recipients: a functional magnetic

resonance imaging analysis. J Altern Comp-

lement Med. 2005;11:965-971.

7. van Lommel P. Conscious Beyond Life. New

York: HarperOne; 2007, p 62.

8. van Lommel P, van Wees R, Meyers V, Elffer-

ich I. Near-death experience in survivors of

cardiac arrest: a prospective study in the

Netherlands. Lancet. 2001;358:2039-2045.

9. Greyson B, Holden JM, van Lommel P.

‘There is nothing paranormal about near-

death experiences’ revisited: comment on

Mobbs and Watt. Trends Cogn Sci. 2012;

16:445; Author reply:446.

10. Kuhn T. Structure of Scientific Revolutions.

Chicago: Phoenix, the University of Chi-

cago Press; 1962.

11. Hadamard J. Subconscient intuition, et

logique dans la rechere scientifique. Con-

ference Faite au Palais de la Découverte le 8

Décembre 1945, Alençon, n.d., p. 7-8.

12. Schwartz SA. Nonlocality and exceptional

experiences: A study of genius, religious

Epiphany, and the Psychic. Explore (NY).

2010;6:227-236.

13. Mihalasky J. ESP: can it play a role in idea-

generation? Mech Eng. 1972;94:32-34.

14. Stent GS. Prematurity and uniqueness in

scientific discovery. Scic Am. 1972;227:

84-93.

 

 

Edited by OverSword

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lightly

In another thread "the illusion of matter". .the nature of physical reality is being discussed .  It sounds like all energy and matter exists as/in 'energy' fields . ?? ..basically?     Sooooo, ...is all energy, including 'Consiousness', 100% contained within strict parameters ?   Or , might energy, including Consiousness , sort of..Leak?   And..indeed, is it strictly confined by space/time ? ...or , might 'thought' be transmitted over distance?  ..sort of take short cuts thru space/time?

electrical generators and lines LEAK all the time...in surrounding fields.   All electromagnetic energy creates fields?   So, why not Consiousness too?   Might these fields be accessable to other transmitter/receivers ( MINDS ) .??   People certainly seem to "pick up" on what others are thinking sometimes. ??

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OverSword

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lightly
7 minutes ago, OverSword said:

Which section?  I don't see it.

It was in philosophy and psychology ... ..

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XenoFish

 

Here it is.

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Liquid Gardens
1 hour ago, OverSword said:

I don't think require was part of it.  Here, read it again.

Fair enough, I don't understand then why playing music 'possibly suggests' non-local consciousness any more than playing football or basketball which also has lots of synchronicity.

1 hour ago, OverSword said:

The detail in the data is so fine that they can distinguish which musician is playing lead and which is playing backup. “When people coordinate actions with one another, small networks within the brain and, remarkably, between the brains are formed, especially when the activities need to be precisely aligned in time, for example at the joint play onset of a piece,” says Sänger.

I have no idea what the first sentence refers to; playing lead and playing backup, when they are not outright roles assumed by those in the band (rhythm guitarist vs lead guitarist) or by the song itself, don't seem to me to suggest anything non-local.  Precisely aligning the onset of a piece is typically done by a conductor or for popular music by counting off the tempo for a bar ("and a 1..2..3..4..") to sync everyone up before starting the tune. With improvisation yes there is a 'network' in that the improviser is constantly listening to what the other members are playing and responding to it, but that seems to all be happening with local consciousness and ears.

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Piney
1 hour ago, OverSword said:

Actually citations at the end.  Some are university publications.

 

Oxford University is a publisher and they published Draconic Chronicler's book. You don't have to be vetted to pay them to publish a book. 

The others are still just journals.

"Peer reviewed" means others checked the facts. If that "healer paper" was peer reviewed it would be cited in the 'Harvard Study of Tradition Medicine' and the 'Indian Health Services Journal' and I never saw it. 

Hence, it's bull****. But I already knew that coming from a long line of healers. 

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OverSword
23 minutes ago, Liquid Gardens said:

Fair enough, I don't understand then why playing music 'possibly suggests' non-local consciousness any more than playing football or basketball which also has lots of synchronicity.

I have no idea what the first sentence refers to; playing lead and playing backup, when they are not outright roles assumed by those in the band (rhythm guitarist vs lead guitarist) or by the song itself, don't seem to me to suggest anything non-local.  Precisely aligning the onset of a piece is typically done by a conductor or for popular music by counting off the tempo for a bar ("and a 1..2..3..4..") to sync everyone up before starting the tune. With improvisation yes there is a 'network' in that the improviser is constantly listening to what the other members are playing and responding to it, but that seems to all be happening with local consciousness and ears.

I don't get that either.  I think the writer is suggesting that if there were synced networks physically forming in the brains that perhaps the point of synchronization between the two could be outside the networks formed in the physical brain (?)  Sounds interesting to me.  I know from experience that sometimes jamming with a certain person will elevate my own playing as part of a group that is lacking when playing with other people that are just as  technically competent.  Of course there are many possible explanations such as our approach or understanding of music just meshes better but sometimes things about music seem deeper to me. 

Remember the thread I started about possibly pulling a song out of the ether, where I had no real memory of writing the song I just remember playing a part and it flowed into another part and the next day it was just there?  Many musicians have claimed to have had this same experience like Paul McCartney and Ray Davies.  Who's to say they are certainly wrong about that and wouldn't that suggest a possibility of something non-local?  

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lightly
45 minutes ago, OverSword said:

I don't get that either.  I think the writer is suggesting that if there were synced networks physically forming in the brains that perhaps the point of synchronization between the two could be outside the networks formed in the physical brain (?)  Sounds interesting to me.  I know from experience that sometimes jamming with a certain person will elevate my own playing as part of a group that is lacking when playing with other people that are just as  technically competent.  Of course there are many possible explanations such as our approach or understanding of music just meshes better but sometimes things about music seem deeper to me. 

Remember the thread I started about possibly pulling a song out of the ether, where I had no real memory of writing the song I just remember playing a part and it flowed into another part and the next day it was just there?  Many musicians have claimed to have had this same experience like Paul McCartney and Ray Davies.  Who's to say they are certainly wrong about that and wouldn't that suggest a possibility of something non-local?  

I'm no Paul McCartney..or Ray Davies ...well, maybe almost a Ray Davies :P,  but I've had that experience.  A couple times....More like finding a song than writing it. .and those songs always seem familiar somehow, sort of like you've heard them before..but you Know you haven't !  

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Liquid Gardens
1 hour ago, OverSword said:

I think the writer is suggesting that if there were synced networks physically forming in the brains that perhaps the point of synchronization between the two could be outside the networks formed in the physical brain (?)  Sounds interesting to me.

It does sound interesting, as I mentioned just not sure why playing music was selected out when it seems like it could apply to almost any group activity, and the majority of team sports.

1 hour ago, OverSword said:

I know from experience that sometimes jamming with a certain person will elevate my own playing as part of a group that is lacking when playing with other people that are just as  technically competent.  Of course there are many possible explanations such as our approach or understanding of music just meshes better but sometimes things about music seem deeper to me. 

I definitely agree that music is deep anyway.  I've messed around with playing guitar, badly, for a long time and have always been fascinated by it and how my brain works with it.  I don't know enough to analogize my experience with proficient players but there does seem to be something deeper going on, or at least something that maybe isn't totally part of our conscious mind.  One of the coolest things I think is 'finger memory'.  Every once in a while I'll try to play a song I used to know long ago but can't really remember well, but sometimes I'll play it and although my brain doesn't always seem to know what chord or riff comes next, sometimes my fingers will 'remember' and 'automatically' move into the correct position.  It's a neat experience, and indicates to me that there's something else going on in playing music that isn't entirely accessible to my conscious mind via normal memory and is 'deeper'.

1 hour ago, OverSword said:

Remember the thread I started about possibly pulling a song out of the ether, where I had no real memory of writing the song I just remember playing a part and it flowed into another part and the next day it was just there?  Many musicians have claimed to have had this same experience like Paul McCartney and Ray Davies.  Who's to say they are certainly wrong about that and wouldn't that suggest a possibility of something non-local?  

I have heard of that; I think McCartney dreamed the melody to Yesterday and Keith Richards I think supposedly woke up with the Satisfaction riff in his head.  I don't think they're wrong about this occurring, I just think it came from their unconscious though, not sure where they claimed this kind of stuff comes from. 

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Will Do
17 hours ago, Liquid Gardens said:

not sure where they claimed this kind of stuff comes from. 

 

Quote

“I AM THE STRING, AND THE SUPREME IS THE MUSICIAN”

Carlos Santana

 

 

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papageorge1
22 hours ago, OverSword said:

I don't get that either.  I think the writer is suggesting that if there were synced networks physically forming in the brains that perhaps the point of synchronization between the two could be outside the networks formed in the physical brain (?) 

Here is perhaps a better example of what I was fumbling to say earlier in the thread. 

We have all heard the analogy of nonlocal consciousness proponents that the physical brain should be considered like a radio receiver of consciousness (rather than the source of consciousness). So group consciousness or schooling/flock consciousness in animals can analogously be understood as the transmission sources synching up on a higher 'astral/mental' plane of reality.

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Coyote Speaks
On 6/22/2020 at 12:51 PM, Piney said:
 

Oxford University is a publisher and they published Draconic Chronicler's book. You don't have to be vetted to pay them to publish a book. 

The others are still just journals.

"Peer reviewed" means others checked the facts. If that "healer paper" was peer reviewed it would be cited in the 'Harvard Study of Tradition Medicine' and the 'Indian Health Services Journal' and I never saw it. 

Hence, it's bull****. But I already knew that coming from a long line of healers. 

I don't mean to resurrect a dead thread but... Draconic Chronicler published their book?!?!?!?!

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onlookerofmayhem
18 minutes ago, Coyote Speaks said:

I don't mean to resurrect a dead thread but... 

Eh. It's only a few months old. Maybe only mostly dead.

In the past few months I've seen threads over 10 - 15 years dead being necroposted in.

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Coyote Speaks

On the topic of non-local consciousness I do think there is something a bit finicky with saying that the brain itself is all there is when it comes to consciousness. I realize what follows is only anecdotal, but it did make me think.

For over half of my life my father was suffering from early onset Alzheimer's/Dementia. As the disease progressed his ability to recognize the people around him, himself, the world and everything in it decreased significantly. It got to the point that he would get trapped against walls because he no longer understood how they, or how his feet worked. It was... horrific was an understatement. All the same, now and again, he would have moments of startling lucidity where the disease would fall away and he would have conversations. 

He had an entire conversation with my mother where he described being trapped in a fog and fighting it as best he could. How hard he was trying to keep a hold of himself, but that he couldn't do so forever.

After his stroke, he laid unresponsive in bed. I spent days at his bedside. For two or three of the 9 days before he died he would manage at times to recognize me, to react to things around him. Music, in particular, seemed to cut through what he was experiencing.

While it would be easy to explain all of it as just his brain slowly eating itself alive and moments of lucidity being the result of that there were enough odd moments of total lucidity and understanding that I have trouble believing that he didn't exist (whole and unmarred by the disease) somewhere. I struggle with the idea that the brain is the entire seat of consciousness when now and again he existed as he used to even as his brain was being utterly ravaged and destroyed.

I don't know if non-local consciousness will ever be proven, I've just heard enough similar anecdotal tales that I don't believe it's merely people seeing and believing what they want to believe. There's just something odd about it all.

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Piney
38 minutes ago, Coyote Speaks said:

I don't mean to resurrect a dead thread but... Draconic Chronicler published their book?!?!?!?!

They published his. 

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Coyote Speaks
3 minutes ago, Piney said:

They published his. 

I need to know the title so I can get a copy of it...

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Piney
Just now, Coyote Speaks said:

I need to know the title so I can get a copy of it...

Don't remember his name or the book. It was lost in my stroke and never found.......luckily....:unsure2:

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Coyote Speaks
Just now, Piney said:

Don't remember his name or the book. It was lost in my stroke and never found.......luckily....:unsure2:

Somebody must know it. I miss reading his stuff, it was entertaining as hell. I still think about him often and wondering how he's doing. Chasing dragons all these years...

Might need to start a new thread to see if anyone knows it. 

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Piney
Just now, Coyote Speaks said:

Somebody must know it. I miss reading his stuff, it was entertaining as hell. I still think about him often and wondering how he's doing. Chasing dragons all these years...

I heard he was dead. I remember that much.....

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Mr Walker

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fred_mc

Group consciousness, hmmm, that makes me think of the Borg in Star Trek, "We are Borg".

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Ajay0

  Yes, I have met enlightened masters who stated to me that after enlightenment, they were able to perceive a unitary consciousness pervading everything and all objects,  and being the fundamental state of all existence. This is not perceived in the materialistic and dualistic world, if the person is trapped in karma that projects the outwardly dualistic environment around him or her.

  Here is an account of enlightenment by Gary Weber...

http://happiness-beyond-thought.com/legacy/theauthor.html

Quote

Somehow, I happened upon the teachings of Ramana Maharshi. I began looking in the other direction, back inside at what it was that was doing all of these practices and causing all of this confusion. One day, realizing that enlightenment was impossible as long as there was an “I” insisting on being present for the exciting conclusion as well as keeping all of its attachments, I surrendered completely. Everything was surrendered, everything; my “self”, possessions, job, corner office, parking space, options, house, attachments, everything. I said deeply and sincerely from the bottom of my being, that I had to know the Truth, even if it cost my life. With that surrender, I could feel something shift.

Shortly afterwards, doing an asana that I had done thousands of times before, the “I” blew out like a candle in the wind, and a page turned. I went into the asana one way and came out transformed. Consciousness shifted completely and irrevocably. Thought stopped as a continuous activity and stillness and presence were there at a level I could never have imagined. I realized that I was not this body, nor these thoughts, but the undying consciousness behind them. I saw that everything was perfect just as it was and that everything was somehow inside me and was in fact, all One. Surprisingly, I also realized that everything was God. - Gary Weber

 

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Desertrat56
On 6/19/2020 at 1:04 PM, OverSword said:

I see. I don't think it happens to the extent that a third entity is created that does all the work.

The word synergy seems to fit that, not a third entity, but a melding.

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