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OverSword

NonlocalConsciousness and the Burden of Proof

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XenoFish
8 hours ago, Ajay0 said:

Yes, I have met enlightened masters

Names, I want them. Who are these supposed 'enlightened masters'. 

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joc
On 8/13/2020 at 2:45 PM, Piney said:

Don't remember his name or the book. It was lost in my stroke and never found.......luckily....:unsure2:

Not to change the subject but...you had a stroke?

Back on subject...isn't synchronizing of brains playing instruments just a vibarational thing?  Where does the whole 'consciousness' bit come into play?

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XenoFish

Well I declare myself an enlightened nihilist. I wrote it so it must be true. 

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Piney
34 minutes ago, joc said:

Not to change the subject but...you had a stroke?

You missed the memo when I returned here? :unsure2:

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joc
2 minutes ago, Piney said:

You missed the memo when I returned here? :unsure2:

I guess I did.  Apparently, it didn't zap your genius so...glad about that. :)

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Piney
2 minutes ago, joc said:

I guess I did.  Apparently, it didn't zap your genius so...glad about that. :)

It did. I regained a big chunk of memory last year. :yes:

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quiXilver
14 hours ago, Ajay0 said:

  Yes, I have met enlightened masters who stated to me that after enlightenment, they were able to perceive a unitary consciousness pervading everything and all objects,  and being the fundamental state of all existence. This is not perceived in the materialistic and dualistic world, if the person is trapped in karma that projects the outwardly dualistic environment around him or her.

  Here is an account of enlightenment by Gary Weber...

http://happiness-beyond-thought.com/legacy/theauthor.html

 

Appreciate your sharings in this... thank you for taking the time to contribute. 

 

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Horta
On 6/20/2020 at 1:44 AM, OverSword said:

Browsing a paper on non local consciousness and I came across this bit:

Read the rest here

That article is an opinion piece from a fringe journal.

 

Quote

Threaded through all of this work is a growing awareness, either explicitly or by implication, that there exists an aspect of consciousness not limited by space time or originating entirely within an organism’s neuroanatomy — non-local consciousness

Here is the study that this article seems to refer to. Where does it support the above quote from the article? While their could be a relevant quantum aspect to consciousness (the brain is made of atoms after all), it just seems like a study in behavioural neuroscience, by comparing the neural activity of people engaged in a certain cooperative task (and with limitations as noted). 

It references the findings of lots of other studies also, that might give it some context. Such as the one that looked at sensory input and the part it plays in this effect, another one which found such cohesive neural patterns don't exist when musicians are competing, as opposed to cooperating (who could have guessed that lol).

 

Edited by Horta
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Horta
On 6/23/2020 at 3:02 AM, OverSword said:

Remember the thread I started about possibly pulling a song out of the ether, where I had no real memory of writing the song I just remember playing a part and it flowed into another part and the next day it was just there?  Many musicians have claimed to have had this same experience like Paul McCartney and Ray Davies.  Who's to say they are certainly wrong about that and wouldn't that suggest a possibility of something non-local?  

Fascinating yes, but I don't find it so out of the bounds of normal. In the sense that every thought we ever have also seems to arrive "as if out of the ether". We don't put it there, we just become aware of it when it arrives, then claim authorship (sometimes to our detriment lol). 

Take note next time you're conversing and you might find something equally as fascinating. Usually, in general conversation and even when we are focusing intently on the conversation, we have no knowledge of what the next word we utter will be, until we utter it.

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Coyote Speaks
On 9/6/2020 at 6:40 AM, Mr Walker said:

That deepens the mystery of what Draconic Chroniclers book might be. A biography of Yahweh the Dragon?? I found a few journal articles with similar titles but no book yet. Hm.

Can't believe he was writing Shrek fanfiction back in the day. Man.

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Mr Walker
On 9/15/2020 at 5:20 AM, XenoFish said:

Names, I want them. Who are these supposed 'enlightened masters'. 

Mr Walker :) 

lol Its interesting. To me this was a powerful, but not paranormal or mystical experience. But then i was only 13  

I didn't speak much about it, having learned my lesson about talking about such things by then 

it altered my life, but in practical ways, not mystical ones 

Indeed i cant really get the mystical language some people use to  describe it.

It is just a natural cognitive abilty of the human mind. 

I am not at all sure it can be taught, although some principles and practices might . It took me almost a decade of nightly work on my cognitive skills, and then this experience just came to m.e  

ALL the realisations mentioned by others were there,   but the thing i took away from  it, and which remained with me for life, was a connection to this universal or  cosmic consciousness 

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Mr Walker
On 9/15/2020 at 10:21 PM, Horta said:

Fascinating yes, but I don't find it so out of the bounds of normal. In the sense that every thought we ever have also seems to arrive "as if out of the ether". We don't put it there, we just become aware of it when it arrives, then claim authorship (sometimes to our detriment lol). 

Take note next time you're conversing and you might find something equally as fascinating. Usually, in general conversation and even when we are focusing intently on the conversation, we have no knowledge of what the next word we utter will be, until we utter it.

That is not true for me. i construct every word i think and it is in my mind before i speak or write it 

I dont have any non- constructed thoughts  

if you say you think like this,  i choose  to believe you, as you have no reason to lie, but since i became aware of my consciousness, aged 3 or 4, i've constructed every thought and every word in my mind. Thus i am totally responsible for them. No one, or nothing, else is. 

As far as i know, verbal speech is impossible without constructed inner/mental speech, and that has to be constructed. But you might be different.  

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jmccr8
2 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

That is not true for me. i construct every word i think and it is in my mind before i speak or write it 

I dont have any non- constructed thoughts  

if you say you think like this,  i choose  to believe you, as you have no reason to lie, but since i became aware of my consciousness, aged 3 or 4, i've constructed every thought and every word in my mind. Thus i am totally responsible for them. No one, or nothing, else is. 

As far as i know, verbal speech is impossible without constructed inner/mental speech, and that has to be constructed. But you might be different.  

conan obrien and the survey says GIF by Team Coco

I really don't thinks so

jmccr8

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Mr Walker
21 minutes ago, jmccr8 said:

conan obrien and the survey says GIF by Team Coco

I really don't thinks so

jmccr8

Sorry, but i know how i think and speak and have done so since aged 3 or 4.

Ive NEVER spoken without first constructing the words in my mind (maybe it has to do with reading since the age of 3) 

i find it hard to believe those who say they can speak without thinking the words.

it goes against everything we learned at uni  about human thought and speech  and theoretically is impossible.

   But i dont have any reason to call others liars. i just cant believe them  Can you explain HOW you can speak without first thinking what words you will speak?  How can you even speak one word without consciously choosing it and forming it in your mind? Then causing your mouth /tongue  to shape correctly  and your vocal chords to work in synchrony, to produce the word? 

The best i can believe is  that some people have never learned to listen to their stream of consciousness and take control of it, verbalising every thought.  Thus they believe the y are speaking without conscious thought, even though it is physically impossible 

  I have to consciously  pre verbalise every thought and every word spoken or written,   because i cant see images, and every thing/thought  comes to me in words.  

 

https://www.verywellfamily.com/how-do-children-learn-language-1449116

 

 

Or did you simply mean that you don't think  Horta is different? 

Edited by Mr Walker

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jmccr8
5 minutes ago, Mr Walker said:

Sorry, but i know how i think and speak and have done so since aged 3 or 4.

Hi Walker

You infer how others should think like you and if they don't they must be suffering from a lack of cognition of some sort, several members here have shown (myself included) that there is not a common agreement in your proposal and after several years of discussion have not yet seem to realize that we do not have to agree with you unless you satisfy a certain criteria of the this particular sub-forum. Rebel that you are you make a lot of waves that are not big enough to hang ten on to make no realistic sense of your stories.

I still consider you a friend but for the most part you tend to wander around a lot and even when asked to be a part of a thread for you so our discussions there would limit how far off tracking other threads would get so with your lack of enthusiasm to freely engage there limit my responses to you.

jmccr8

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Mr Walker
34 minutes ago, jmccr8 said:

Hi Walker

You infer how others should think like you and if they don't they must be suffering from a lack of cognition of some sort, several members here have shown (myself included) that there is not a common agreement in your proposal and after several years of discussion have not yet seem to realize that we do not have to agree with you unless you satisfy a certain criteria of the this particular sub-forum. Rebel that you are you make a lot of waves that are not big enough to hang ten on to make no realistic sense of your stories.

I still consider you a friend but for the most part you tend to wander around a lot and even when asked to be a part of a thread for you so our discussions there would limit how far off tracking other threads would get so with your lack of enthusiasm to freely engage there limit my responses to you.

jmccr8

 No i was asking if you  were saying you don t believe ME.

I know how i think and speak. i cant know how others do.

However, university studies of thought and speech suggest that it ts impossible to form coherent sentences either in your mind  (thoughts) or out loud, without a lot of thought and training.

If we could think and speak without conscious/ deliberate construction, we would be thinking and speaking from  birth 

It takes years for a child to learn how to speak 

To me its about the truth.

I know myself and how i speak and think.

I know the theory of human cognition and speech development (it was a pretty significant part of teacher training as we might have ended up teaching young kids how to speak think read etc.)

  Thus i would not call another a liar, but i cant believe anyone can truly speak without first forming the thoughts in their mind And forming thoughts is conscious deliberate process which must be learned .

I suspect some have not yet consciously come to be aware of the process occuring in their minds and facial muscles, which allows them to speak coherently . 

I was replying to specific point, and it DOES relate to the nature, or existence, of nonlocal consciousness.

Clearly, in one sense, i don't accept  it, but in another i have experienced sending my consciousness from my body.

Ie consciousness is an artefact of the human mind and thus local to the brain, BUT it has potential and abilities that we have not yet fully investigated or understood 

Those who are not aware of how their minds are constructing their thoughts would be more prone to believing tha t consciousness might not be localised. 

 

https://news.harvard.edu/gazette/story/2015/10/how-the-brain-builds-new-thoughts/

Some academics claim that subconscious thoughts don't count, and thus we dont think or act consciously, but humans can access and utilise their subconscious thoughts  eg you can know and understand why you have a subconscious bias or preference. You can recognise that you do and retrain your subconscious thoughts  (This is a learned skill) 

 

Edited by Mr Walker

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Horta
20 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

That is not true for me. i construct every word i think and it is in my mind before i speak or write it 

I dont have any non- constructed thoughts  

 

Of course you don't. It should go without saying. Instead of having a "except for Mr.W" caveat in every post, take it as a given that such things don't apply to someone so special as yourself.

:)

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Dejarma
16 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

However, university studies of thought and speech suggest that it ts impossible to form coherent sentences either in your mind  (thoughts) or out loud, without a lot of thought and training.

what is a coherent sentence ? coherent is only relative to the individual

Edited by Dejarma

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Mr Walker
7 hours ago, Horta said:

Of course you don't. It should go without saying. Instead of having a "except for Mr.W" caveat in every post, take it as a given that such things don't apply to someone so special as yourself.

:)

IMO (because this is my experience) ALL humans can only think and speak with constructed intent.

It is how i learned to think, speak, and read, as a very young child. 

It is what I was taught a t university,  when we studied how children learn to speak and think 

I am being polite (from inside my experience) in accepting your word that you don't. 

I cant see how it is possible, knowing how humans construct  thought and speech. But I have to take your word that this is how you perceive the way you think 

If you can speak without thinking, and think without consciously constructing a thought, then in my experience it is you who is  a  very special person. 

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Mr Walker
7 hours ago, Dejarma said:

what is a coherent sentence ? coherent is only relative to the individual

No; linguistically, coherence has a couple of specific meanings

eg is the sentence grammatically coherent  (is it indeed even a sentence or just a jumble of words or babble?)  

is it easily understood by another person.

So very young children cannot form coherent speech, even though the y are in the process of learning it 

Before long, speech becomes coherent, but simplistic. More complex language, including abstract language, comes even,later. 

quote

Between 6 and 9 months, babies babble in syllables and start imitating tones and speech sounds.

By 12 months, a baby’s first words usually appear, and by 18 months to 2 years children use around 50 words and will start putting two words together into a short sentences.

From 2-3 years, sentences extend to 4 and 5 words. Children can recognise and identify almost all common objects and pictures, as well as use pronouns (I, me, he, she) and some plurals. Strangers can understand most words.

From 3-5 years, conversations become longer, and more abstract and complex.

By the time a child turns 5, they usually have a 2,500 word vocabulary and talk in complete, grammatically correct sentences. They ask a lot of ‘why?’, ‘what?’ and ‘who?’ questions.

https://www.pregnancybirthbaby.org.au/speech-development-in-children#:~:text=Between 6 and 9 months,to 4 and 5 words.

So basically if you can understand your child's, speech and it has a basic formal  structure, then it is coherent .

If you can follow your  own thoughts then they are coherent for you.  

 A human cannot construct coherent speech, either as thoughts, or as oral language, without clear intent, understanding, and practice.

It  is simply impossible for coherent  thoughts to arise spontaneously from  nowhere,  although we might have "spontaneous"
emotions and reactions which bring a word or two to our mind. :)   

Edited by Mr Walker

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Cookie Monster
On 9/15/2020 at 1:23 PM, Horta said:

That article is an opinion piece from a fringe journal.

Here is the study that this article seems to refer to. Where does it support the above quote from the article? While their could be a relevant quantum aspect to consciousness (the brain is made of atoms after all), it just seems like a study in behavioural neuroscience, by comparing the neural activity of people engaged in a certain cooperative task (and with limitations as noted). 

It references the findings of lots of other studies also, that might give it some context. Such as the one that looked at sensory input and the part it plays in this effect, another one which found such cohesive neural patterns don't exist when musicians are competing, as opposed to cooperating (who could have guessed that lol).

The only way to reveal the quantum mind would be to experiment with your own mind.

That is something which surprisingly a lot of people will not do and it tends to be those who have poor control of their emotions and thinking patterns anyway.

You can make an effort to stay in a state of mind all day long where you stop thoughts. You would have slip ups along the way but as soon as you realise you can shut your thoughts back down. You can select a certain type of thought you will allow to occur and limit it to that one only.

Then look out for a change with other people, the things they do, and the things they come out with. What does it reveal? On the surface what appears to be a collective consciousness. Where what goes on in your mind crops up elsewhere.

Not a hard experiment to do, but one which will be shot down by closed minded individuals and one which they refuse to even try.

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