zep73 Posted June 21, 2020 #1 Share Posted June 21, 2020 Matter is made of atoms, that are composed of particles. And we know that those particles are mere energy, given mass by the Higgs boson, who is also mere energy. Mass is therefore only an illusion. That fact is among the most amazing that science has given us, during the latest 100+ years, and it has also inspired some of the most famous and profound quotes from celebrated scientists: Quote Einstein: "Reality is merely an illusion, albeit a very persistent one." Bohr: "Everything we call real is made of things that cannot be regarded as real." Heisenberg: "The atoms or elementary particles themselves are not real; they form a world of potentialities or possibilities rather than one of things or facts." (Susskind even flat out calls the universe a hologram. He won the "information debate" against Hawking.) Most people ignore this fact about the universe. They don't ignore it on purpose, it's just something that falls natural to forget, unless it's spoken about. How do you feel about nothing being truly tangible and solid? That you, and everything around you, is closer to being a hologram, than to being something real? How do you feel about the fact, that you can't fully trust your senses? And what about beliefs, theories, hypotheses and ontologies (reality models). Does it, in your opinion, favor or disfavor any of them? 6 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post XenoFish Posted June 21, 2020 Popular Post #2 Share Posted June 21, 2020 Everything feels pretty damn solid to me. 4 1 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bison Posted June 21, 2020 #3 Share Posted June 21, 2020 I've maintained for some time that the universe is an idea, rather than the forms it appears to take to our senses. I've said as much in this forum, before. I used the example of the transitory and really indefinable nature of much larger material objects, but this must apply also to the elementary particles out of which matter appear to be made. These particles are, in some respects, even more elusive than the more familar forms of matter. We have, of course, from Dr. Einstein, the realization that matter and energy are in essence, equivalent. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zep73 Posted June 21, 2020 Author #4 Share Posted June 21, 2020 5 minutes ago, XenoFish said: Everything feels pretty damn solid to me. It's nothing but electromagnetic resistance. A negative charge, held in place by a positive charge. 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XenoFish Posted June 21, 2020 #5 Share Posted June 21, 2020 3 minutes ago, sci-nerd said: It's nothing but electromagnetic resistance. A negative charge, held in place by a positive charge. You think I honestly care? 7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zep73 Posted June 21, 2020 Author #6 Share Posted June 21, 2020 1 minute ago, XenoFish said: You think I honestly care? You care enough to click the thread, and comment. Twice. 3 3 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
papageorge1 Posted June 21, 2020 #7 Share Posted June 21, 2020 34 minutes ago, sci-nerd said: And what about beliefs, theories, hypotheses and ontologies (reality models). Does it, in your opinion, favor or disfavor any of them? In my Advaita (non-dual=God and creation are not-two) belief system only Consciousness/God/Brahman is real. Matter and energy are thoughtforms of Consciousness/God/Brahman. Advaita is really the opposite of Materialism. Advaita: Consciousness is primary and matter is a derivative of Consciousness Materialism: Matter is primary and consciousness is a derivative of Matter In all my research I have never come across matter. To me the term matter implies a bundle of energy which is given form by an intelligent spirit. Max Planck 1 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XenoFish Posted June 21, 2020 #8 Share Posted June 21, 2020 27 minutes ago, sci-nerd said: You care enough to click the thread, and comment. Twice. How about I click and reply a third time. It seems that science likes destroying any semblance of what we can call human. Reducing everything down to atoms, chemicals, and synapses. It has taken everything that has made us human away. Reducing us down to meat machines. In your case an illusory meat machine, that doesn't even exist. So why should anyone exist or continue to exist when they are nothing? That's my opinion. I'm sorry I am not a big brain person around here, that for some stupid reason have a bit of humanity in me. But that's just chemicals anyway. 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zep73 Posted June 21, 2020 Author #9 Share Posted June 21, 2020 8 minutes ago, papageorge1 said: In all my research I have never come across matter. To me the term matter implies a bundle of energy which is given form by an intelligent spirit. Max Planck I agree with Planck, except for the last word he used. But he really had no alternative at that given time, so he's excused. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bison Posted June 21, 2020 #10 Share Posted June 21, 2020 'Spirit' is a pretty flexible word. People have used it in various ways, to convey different concepts. It could simply mean a different, and/or 'higher' form of existence. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
papageorge1 Posted June 21, 2020 #11 Share Posted June 21, 2020 Just now, sci-nerd said: I agree with Planck, except for the last word he used. But he really had no alternative at that given time, so he's excused. So what would you replace the word with? It seems to need something more fundamental to reality than matter/energy, My beliefs come from the direct observations of the Vedic (Hindu scriptures) seers/mystics. I go into the Upanishads to ask questions. Niels Bohr The Upanishads are Hindu scripture. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post +Desertrat56 Posted June 21, 2020 Popular Post #12 Share Posted June 21, 2020 Everything is nothing pretending to be something. 8 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
papageorge1 Posted June 21, 2020 #13 Share Posted June 21, 2020 6 minutes ago, bison said: 'Spirit' is a pretty flexible word. People have used it in various ways, to convey different concepts. It could simply mean a different, and/or 'higher' form of existence. I think Planck was referring to this mystery called Consciousness which is something immaterial (spirit). I regard consciousness as fundamental. I regard matter as derivative from consciousness. We cannot get behind consciousness. Everything that we talk about, everything that we regard as existing, postulates consciousness. Max Planck 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zep73 Posted June 21, 2020 Author #14 Share Posted June 21, 2020 1 minute ago, papageorge1 said: So what would you replace the word with? I'm not sure. Everything can be explained by a random energy fluctuation. What we call the big bang. The only thing that defies randomness is quantum duality. Because, why would a random system respond to observation? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
papageorge1 Posted June 21, 2020 #15 Share Posted June 21, 2020 Just now, sci-nerd said: Because, why would a random system respond to observation? Because Consciousness is the creator of reality? That mystery we can't get behind. I regard consciousness as fundamental. I regard matter as derivative from consciousness. We cannot get behind consciousness. Everything that we talk about, everything that we regard as existing, postulates consciousness. Max Planck 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zep73 Posted June 21, 2020 Author #16 Share Posted June 21, 2020 6 minutes ago, papageorge1 said: I regard consciousness as fundamental. I regard matter as derivative from consciousness. We cannot get behind consciousness. Everything that we talk about, everything that we regard as existing, postulates consciousness. Max Planck What he should have said is: We need more data, before we can conclude anything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
papageorge1 Posted June 21, 2020 #17 Share Posted June 21, 2020 20 minutes ago, sci-nerd said: What he should have said is: We need more data, before we can conclude anything. Well we'll let you tell Planck what to think and not think. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zep73 Posted June 21, 2020 Author #18 Share Posted June 21, 2020 2 minutes ago, papageorge1 said: Well we'll let you tell Planck what to think and not think. Had he known that there'd someday be machines that could achieve intelligence and potentially mimic consciousness, he most likely would have spoken differently. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XenoFish Posted June 21, 2020 #19 Share Posted June 21, 2020 6 minutes ago, papageorge1 said: Well we'll let you tell Planck what to think and not think. Can't talk to a dead man. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
papageorge1 Posted June 21, 2020 #20 Share Posted June 21, 2020 Just now, sci-nerd said: Had he known that there'd someday be machines that could achieve intelligence and potentially mimic consciousness, he most likely would have spoken differently. No, I don't see how that changes anything about his knowledge of quantum behavior. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
papageorge1 Posted June 21, 2020 #21 Share Posted June 21, 2020 Just now, XenoFish said: Can't talk to a dead man. It was a joke. But anyway I do believe dead men can communicate through mediums but that is certainly off topic.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zep73 Posted June 21, 2020 Author #22 Share Posted June 21, 2020 2 minutes ago, papageorge1 said: No, I don't see how that changes anything about his knowledge of quantum behavior. If he had seen that those machines behave like quantum systems, in their handling of graphics, it would have. 1) We have machines that behave like quantum systems 2) Those machines can be intelligent and potentially gain consciousness As a scientist he would have been thrilled! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XenoFish Posted June 21, 2020 #23 Share Posted June 21, 2020 So let me get this straight, nothing exist, nothing matters. Right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XenoFish Posted June 21, 2020 #24 Share Posted June 21, 2020 5 minutes ago, papageorge1 said: It was a joke. But anyway I do believe dead men can communicate through mediums but that is certainly off topic.. You believe everything. 1 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zep73 Posted June 21, 2020 Author #25 Share Posted June 21, 2020 1 minute ago, XenoFish said: So let me get this straight, nothing exist, nothing matters. Right? It matters to us. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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