The illusion of Matter

[zep73]

5 minutes ago, Desertrat56 said:

Maybe if you had experienced what I have you would not consider it teasing, but disrespect.  Find a better way to tease that does not insult any bystanders.  Yes, I chose to be insulted, but there is an endemic sickness in our society and that kind of teasing is part of it.  It is just a minor step on the road to other unacceptable behavior and there was a whole internet thing about it called #MeToo, if you missed, look it up.  It is not just about rape it is about misogynist attitudes that permeate everything in our society. 

And if the shoe were on the other foot and someone teased another using disrespectful stereo types about men, it would be just as bad in my opinion.  

I've deleted it, since it brought nothing but misunderstanding.

Please accept my apologies. That goes for you too @XenoFish

[Harte]

1 hour ago, XenoFish said:

Maybe I just hate people? Maybe deep down I realize that human existence and effort is pointless and nothing truly matters. Yet here we are pretending it does. Perhaps there is a conflict with my inner world and eternal reality that makes me vindictive.

You brought up a subject about nothing existing, from a certain point of view I have spent 6-7 years in that nothingness. 

So no nothing matters and we barely exist. We are the ghost in the universe.

Once again, we can't assume that energy doesn't exist.

As for "nothing truly matters":

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BkzE23pyME4

Harte

Edited July 1, 2020 by Harte

[Harte]

1 hour ago, Desertrat56 said:

I mentioned noticing the smiley.  The smiley only means you are trying to skip taking responsibility for being rude. 

Making generalizing statements about the sexes is not done for fun where I am from.  My experience is those types of comments are not jokes, they are passive aggressive jabs made by insecure, immature people. 

Obviously, as a rude person, I am compelled to rise to the defense of rudeness.

Rudeness is often called for, and can be a powerful stimulus for change.

But that wasn't rude per se.

It was misogynistic.

Harte

[Harte]

55 minutes ago, lightly said:

 

Interesting.      Have we all seen images of the striking similarity between the arrangement and distribution of the structure of the human mind and the universe?        .     .   Splain that one Lucy !  

We don't have knowledge of the arrangement and distribution of the mind's structure.

We barely have glimpsed the structure of the visible universe.

Harte

[XenoFish]

7 minutes ago, Harte said:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BkzE23pyME4

I used to watch reruns of this back in the 80's with my deceased grandpa.

[Harte]

Life's a beach, then you die.

Harte

[+Desertrat56]

7 minutes ago, Harte said:

Obviously, as a rude person, I am compelled to rise to the defense of rudeness.

Rudeness is often called for, and can be a powerful stimulus for change.

But that wasn't rude per se.

It was misogynistic.

Harte

Well, you are a male so misogyny is not perceived the same way.  Any disrespect, which by definition, misogyny is, is rude.

It would have been different if the "teasing" was personal, rather than a generalization and accusation, but it wasn't so it was rude, mainly because it included others that had nothing to do with the disagreement.

Edited July 1, 2020 by Desertrat56

[zep73]

11 hours ago, Coil said:

And how do you think the energy and matter of elementary particles gathers in atoms further into molecules, simple amino acids and further into simple creatures?

The elementary particles gathered into atoms in the first 300,000 years after the big bang, if I remember correctly. Complex molecules came later, after the first stars had died, leaving behind the heavier elements. The first living cell (that we know of) came much much later, about 9 billion years after the big bang.

[zep73]

1 hour ago, Desertrat56 said:

Well, you are a male so misogyny is not perceived the same way.  Any disrespect, which by definition, misogyny is, is rude.

It would have been different if the "teasing" was personal, rather than a generalization and accusation, but it wasn't so it was rude, mainly because it included others that had nothing to do with the disagreement.

Joking and teasing is a big part of who I am, and I never do it with malicious intent.
I grew up in a tense environment, where my jaloux mother would always make sarcastic and mean remarks about my father and his new wife, and their humoristic response to that was a huge relief, and was a part of shaping me into the person I am today. As I grew up, I also noticed other adults using humor to tease each other, to lighten the mood. I came to embrace and love it.

Now I'm told I'm wrong. That my intent does not matter, as long as the recipient feels differently. And that is hard to navigate in, because hurting someone is the last thing I would ever want to do. But it does make me feel somehow handicapped, having such a big part of my personality being deemed unacceptable.

I'm not claiming that I'm on the right side of this, or that you are on the wrong. I'm just saying that we are living in dividing times, where an old fool like me is struggling to fit in, while remaining true to myself.

[+Desertrat56]

11 minutes ago, sci-nerd said:

Joking and teasing is a big part of who I am, and I never do it with malicious intent.
I grew up in a tense environment, where my jaloux mother would always make sarcastic and mean remarks about my father and his new wife, and their humoristic response to that was a huge relief, and was a part of shaping me into the person I am today. As I grew up, I also noticed other adults using humor to tease each other, to lighten the mood. I came to embrace and love it.

Now I'm told I'm wrong. That my intent does not matter, as long as the recipient feels differently. And that is hard to navigate in, because hurting someone is the last thing I would ever want to do. But it does make me feel somehow handicapped, having such a big part of my personality being deemed unacceptable.

I'm not claiming that I'm on the right side of this, or that you are on the wrong. I'm just saying that we are living in dividing times, where an old fool like me is struggling to fit in, while remaining true to myself.

So, I think it boils down to you being aware of what you say to people you don't know personally as being misunderstood because there is no personal knowledge.  Your father could joke about your mother's attitude because he knew her, he knew you and your step  mother. 

You do know the current societal environment that you are in on the internet, though, so you should know that some people will not appreciate your "humor" when the words actually denigrate a group they belong to (for example women).  Maybe it is time for you to start becoming conscious about how the words you choose, especially in jest, reveal how you really think.

And that LOL or jokey face makes it worse, because it indicates you Know that what you said was not nice.

Edited July 1, 2020 by Desertrat56

[zep73]

8 minutes ago, Desertrat56 said:

Maybe it is time for you to start becoming conscious about how the words you choose, especially in jest, reveal how you really think.

And that LOL or jokey face makes it worse, because it indicates you Know that what you said was not nice.

That's not how I really think. You may know, and have known, many jerks in your life, but I'm not one of them.

[+Desertrat56]

1 minute ago, sci-nerd said:

That's not how I really think. You may know, and have known, many jerks in your life, but I'm not one of them.

Perhaps, but I don't know you.  I am offering something for you to think about, but it is not expected that you must.

[lightly]

2 hours ago, Harte said:

We don't have knowledge of the arrangement and distribution of the mind's structure.

We barely have glimpsed the structure of the visible universe.

Harte

Oops,  if I'm completely wrong about that...I apologize for posting nonsence?    In my defense, if I google  ( similar structure of the mind and the universe )  In Images, it pulls up side by side representations of a brain cell ,and the universe...and they appear very similar.    One  such image is from a site called  "  Sprott physics.wisc.edu  "    Take a look please?   You've probably seen those images?     So, it sounds like those are total MISrepresentaions?       I've been assuming there was some validity to those images.    ???    

[zep73]

Just now, Desertrat56 said:

Perhaps, but I don't know you.  I am offering something for you to think about, but it is not expected that you must.

It's not the first time I have encountered this, so I know I need to adjust. I just thought I had adjusted. Obviously not enough.

[XenoFish]

27 minutes ago, sci-nerd said:

It's not the first time I have encountered this, so I know I need to adjust. I just thought I had adjusted. Obviously not enough.

You've only been here two years. Give it about two more. By that time you'll be a regular here. 

[Harte]

3 hours ago, lightly said:

Oops,  if I'm completely wrong about that...I apologize for posting nonsence?    In my defense, if I google  ( similar structure of the mind and the universe )  In Images, it pulls up side by side representations of a brain cell ,and the universe...and they appear very similar.    One  such image is from a site called  "  Sprott physics.wisc.edu  "    Take a look please?   You've probably seen those images?     So, it sounds like those are total MISrepresentaions?       I've been assuming there was some validity to those images.    ???    

A brain cell is not a mind though.

Well, okay, maybe for some it is.

Harte

[lightly]

10 hours ago, Harte said:

A brain cell is not a mind though.

Well, okay, maybe for some it is.

Harte

True.  My bad.   Those images have been around for years.  I wonder how accurate those representations of the arrangement of structure of A BRAIN CELL are ?    I notice nowadays that some, proposed, representations of the arrangement of structure of the universe seem similar to those old representations of each.   The interconnected strands or filaments (or however it might be described?)

i'd just find it interesting IF organic structure might be similar to universal structure.   I might almost expect it to be !

     (how's that for a philosophical twist on the structure of matter zep?) 

Edited July 2, 2020 by lightly

[Harte]

5 hours ago, lightly said:

True.  My bad.   Those images have been around for years.  I wonder how accurate those representations of the arrangement of structure of A BRAIN CELL are ?    I notice nowadays that some, proposed, representations of the arrangement of structure of the universe seem similar to those old representations of each.   The interconnected strands or filaments (or however it might be described?)

If you ask me, it's just pinterest clickbait.

Harte

[White Crane Feather]

On 6/21/2020 at 1:18 PM, zep73 said:

Matter is made of atoms, that are composed of particles. And we know that those particles are mere energy, given mass by the Higgs boson, who is also mere energy. Mass is therefore only an illusion.

That fact is among the most amazing that science has given us, during the latest 100+ years, and it has also inspired some of the most famous and profound quotes from celebrated scientists:

Most people ignore this fact about the universe. They don't ignore it on purpose, it's just something that falls natural to forget, unless it's spoken about.

How do you feel about nothing being truly tangible and solid? That you, and everything around you, is closer to being a hologram, than to being something real? How do you feel about the fact, that you can't fully trust your senses?

And what about beliefs, theories, hypotheses and ontologies (reality models). Does it, in your opinion, favor or disfavor any of them?

The human mind is built on abstracts. It’s not an illusion that things are solid. It’s  that we define the effects of what we see as solid. Solidity is an effect of the rules of the universe that we perceive. It not an illusion at all.  epiphenomena are real things. Solidity is the direct result of the negative charge of electrons repelling each other much like similar polarities of a magnet. The IS solidity. 

[+Razman]

On 7/1/2020 at 12:55 PM, XenoFish said:

Maybe I just hate people? Maybe deep down I realize that human existence and effort is pointless and nothing truly matters. Yet here we are pretending it does. Perhaps there is a conflict with my inner world and eternal reality that makes me vindictive.

You brought up a subject about nothing existing, from a certain point of view I have spent 6-7 years in that nothingness. 

So no nothing matters and we barely exist. We are the ghost in the universe.

Well look at it this way. It matters now , in the context of our lives. I sometimes don't call it my life , i call it my context , as it is concepts and ideas relating to concepts and ideas. Context meaning the way we see it or what it means to us. Perhaps if and when we die and if there is nothing , then we can cross that bridge when we come to it, but for now it means something and we are making it happen in real time as we go. The things you do and people you know and actions you take affect the world more than one may realize. So your a part of the outcome as is everyone else. A part of the equation. And if there is nothing after this , i like what gene siskel , i think it was who said before he died. He said he never had a problem before he was born , so why would he have a problem after he dies?

[+Razman]

Unless there is a such thing as hell , and he went there for all them bad reviews , then he may still have a problem.

[+Desertrat56]

11 hours ago, razman said:

Unless there is a such thing as hell , and he went there for all them bad reviews , then he may still have a problem.

When I was a teenager, the Presbyterian minister answered my question of "Do you believe there is a hell?" (I had come from a Southern Baptist upbringing).  He said "If someone deserves to go to hell, they are already living it and when we die we either go to heaven or cease to exist."  I found that very interesting coming from a religious leader, but that is what he believed and he was always as honest as he could be with us. 

[Vorg]

In a letter of condolence to the Besso family, Albert Einstein wrote “Now he has departed from this strange world a little ahead of me. That means nothing. For us believing physicists the distinction between past, present, and future only has the meaning of an illusion, though a persistent one.”

Maybe the premise for that sentence Einstien wrote above is not that matter doesn't exist, but that time is itself is the illusion.

If I leave this present time and travel to the past, for those in the past, I am from the future, yet in reality to me, I am from their future, but not mine. This might explain the holographic universe you describe, and why some things change merely by being observed as seen by the observer effect.

Time may exist in past, present, and future, but we can only observe the present, with the other two being elusive, and illusions.

[Emma_Acid]

On 6/21/2020 at 9:18 PM, zep73 said:

Einstein:
"Reality is merely an illusion, albeit a very persistent one."

I take issue with the inclusion of this quote. The original quote actually said:

For us believing physicists, the distinction between past, present and future is only a stubbornly persistent illusion

and it wasn't in any physics paper - it was in a letter to the widow of a longtime friend of Einstein's. This was meant to comfort the family, not be taken as a statement of his scientific position. He was also very aware of his own mortality, and died only a year later.

Sorry, it just bugs me when I see this being brought up as some kind of scientific statement.

Edited August 14, 2020 by Emma_Acid

[zep73]

4 hours ago, Emma_Acid said:

I take issue with the inclusion of this quote. The original quote actually said:

For us believing physicists, the distinction between past, present and future is only a stubbornly persistent illusion

and it wasn't in any physics paper - it was in a letter to the widow of a longtime friend of Einstein's. This was meant to comfort the family, not be taken as a statement of his scientific position. He was also very aware of his own mortality, and died only a year later.

Sorry, it just bugs me when I see this being brought up as some kind of scientific statement.

If I had known, I wouldn't have used it.