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XenoFish

Spiritual Void

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XenoFish

Let's say that you've successfully destroyed another person's belief system. Their beliefs are harmless, yet you've ripped them apart.

So, do you think creating such a spiritual void is/was worth it? 

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13 minutes ago, XenoFish said:

Let's say that you've successfully destroyed another person's belief system. Their beliefs are harmless, yet you've ripped them apart.

So, do you think creating such a spiritual void is/was worth it? 

I think it depends on how committed they were to those beliefs and whether they truly formed the anchor for their reality.  If they were only lightly moored to them, then no great harm done.  If the beliefs were their only hedge against the dark then you may well have destroyed them, spiritually.  I guess you have to ask yourself why anyone would want to risk harming another that way.

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Desertrat56

No, unless you are trying to convert them to your belief system, or leave them destroyed.

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onlookerofmayhem
48 minutes ago, XenoFish said:

Let's say that you've successfully destroyed another person's belief system.

Ok. But what if you disagree with someone and it doesn't destroy their belief system?

49 minutes ago, XenoFish said:

Their beliefs are harmless, yet you've ripped them apart.

I think it's an extremely difficult situation to parse out which beliefs are harmful and which are harmless. 

Who is the arbiter of such things?

I would say each individual would have to assess each belief and go from there. 

For example, my mother is someone who believes in ancient aliens, ghosts/spirits, life after death and crystal powers amongst other things. I believe in none of these.

We've had dozens of discussions on the varying subjects and it always comes down to her capitulating that the main reason she believes in such things is because, "It makes her feel good."

She has no logical justifications for these beliefs. She can provide no evidence or details into the rationale behind why she holds such views, except falsified regurgitations of woo television shows she has watched. 

I don't disagree with her merely to "rip apart her beliefs." I disagree with her because I have come to different conclusions than she has on certain subjects. 

I refuse to lie and placate her by letting her live in a fantasy world.

I usually don't initiate conversations about things we disagree on. She will ask me my opinions on certain topics and I give her my honest, more educated opinion about whatever. 

I don't make any effort to badger her about her beliefs.

So in no way am I actively trying to destroy any of her beliefs, but I feel I'm entitled to my beliefs.

Are any of her beliefs harmful? 

Not really. They could be, but not in any overt ways.

But am I supposed to just smile and nod and tell her everything she believes concerning such things are true?

I can't see how or why I would do that.

1 hour ago, XenoFish said:

So, do you think creating such a spiritual void is/was worth it? 

Well, yes.

If everyone just let everyone else believe whatever they wanted to society would be anarchy. It's a huge issue the world is facing right now. Loads of people believe that everyone is "entitled to their opinion."

Which they are, but where does that leave us in the sense of which opinion is more valid than another?

We have to come to some sort of basic understanding and agreement with each other in my opinion. 

I love my mother with all my heart. She is a wonderful, caring individual. But I don't think lying to her about my opinions would be better than telling my true feelings.

Being honest and having a constructive conversation is paramount.

I'm not looking to hurt anyone's feelings, but if they are so be it. I'm not here to coddle anyone.

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papageorge1
1 hour ago, XenoFish said:

Let's say that you've successfully destroyed another person's belief system. Their beliefs are harmless, yet you've ripped them apart.

So, do you think creating such a spiritual void is/was worth it? 

 

For example, I know a particular Christian who I support even though I think her thinking has some errors at the ultimate level because the better thinking I have to replace it with will not 'sink in'. I'll leave her happy with her beliefs rather than trying to shake foundations.

So, I think the answer to your question is with love in your heart to decide the best way to handle each situation. There are others who really want to get intellectual and I will get into it with those.

 

 

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XenoFish
24 minutes ago, Desertrat56 said:

No, unless you are trying to convert them to your belief system, or leave them destroyed.

A lot of time it truly appears that beliefs are purposefully stomped put rather than discussed. Even the believers are guilt of this. 

My thoughts are more focused on the effect of having an innocent (harmless) belief intentionally crush. A person who,believes in god because it gives meaning to their life, then getting that ripped away leaving an emotional void. 

Pretty much I'm tired of evangelical atheism. 

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Desertrat56
5 minutes ago, XenoFish said:

A lot of time it truly appears that beliefs are purposefully stomped put rather than discussed. Even the believers are guilt of this. 

My thoughts are more focused on the effect of having an innocent (harmless) belief intentionally crush. A person who,believes in god because it gives meaning to their life, then getting that ripped away leaving an emotional void. 

Pretty much I'm tired of evangelical atheism. 

Yes, the extremes at both ends are hard to deal with.  And there are a lot of extreme atheists, maybe as many as extreme believers in something.

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Cookie Monster
1 hour ago, XenoFish said:

Let's say that you've successfully destroyed another person's belief system. Their beliefs are harmless, yet you've ripped them apart.

So, do you think creating such a spiritual void is/was worth it? 

I dont think thats easy to do in a lot of people.

Although I have come across deeply religious people who were quite abusive towards their children (locking them in cupboards for childhood misbehaviours, etc). I think thats what happened to Dawkins lmao.

1 hour ago, and then said:

I think it depends on how committed they were to those beliefs and whether they truly formed the anchor for their reality.  If they were only lightly moored to them, then no great harm done.  If the beliefs were their only hedge against the dark then you may well have destroyed them, spiritually.  I guess you have to ask yourself why anyone would want to risk harming another that way.

It depends how intelligent they are too.

I maintain that people with above average intelligence are more likely to be atheist, but those with a genius level intelligence are more likely to be religious.

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23 minutes ago, onlookerofmayhem said:

We have to come to some sort of basic understanding and agreement with each other in my opinion. 

I think I understand the point you're making but I also think our spiritual beliefs can be as diverse as we want or need them to be.  A mature adult can hold on to beliefs that are the bedrock, the anchor for their sanity and still live in a culture that disagrees with those beliefs.  It takes a lot of moral courage to stand apart but one can do that and still be a productive member of society.

 

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15 minutes ago, papageorge1 said:

I think the answer to your question is with love in your heart to decide the best way to handle each situation.

^ THIS  I will share what I believe but I've never tried to wheedle, cajole or browbeat a person into agreeing with me.  Christ was about planting seeds and knowing the harvest would come for some but not most.  A Christian who has the idea they must plant AND create a harvest is bound to go through a LOT of disappointment and to potentially turn more people away from Christ than toward Him.

I don't know that it pertains to this situation but I have heard ministers who hold that Matthew 18:6 is a warning not about physically harming a child, but about causing them to lose their faith in Christ.  I don't know if that's true or not but if it is, it's the LAST thing I'd want to be guilty of.

"But whoever shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea". 

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papageorge1
1 minute ago, and then said:

"But whoever shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea". 

That was my point. In many cases the above applies.

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Rlyeh
1 hour ago, XenoFish said:

Let's say that you've successfully destroyed another person's belief system. Their beliefs are harmless, yet you've ripped them apart.

So, do you think creating such a spiritual void is/was worth it? 

Must've been worth it at the time if I did it.

The question is like asking if you killed someone who is harmless, was it worth it?

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Cookie Monster
Posted (edited)
16 minutes ago, and then said:

I think I understand the point you're making but I also think our spiritual beliefs can be as diverse as we want or need them to be.  A mature adult can hold on to beliefs that are the bedrock, the anchor for their sanity and still live in a culture that disagrees with those beliefs.  It takes a lot of moral courage to stand apart but one can do that and still be a productive member of society.

 

Their is a premise in many peoples arguments that religion is flawed.

A naivety that assumes people of sound mind, who are bright, who are educated, cannot arrive at the conclusion that God does in fact exist. People who are atheist dont dictate the narrative for other people, they each make their own mind up.

Edited by Cookie Monster
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8 minutes ago, Cookie Monster said:

I dont think thats easy to do in a lot of people.

Although I have come across deeply religious people who were quite abusive towards their children (locking them in cupboards for childhood misbehaviours, etc). I think thats what happened to Dawkins lmao.

It depends how intelligent they are too.

I maintain that people with above average intelligence are more likely to be atheist, but those with a genius level intelligence are more likely to be religious.

I agree but I've also come to understand that there really is a disconnect for many intelligent people where religion is concerned.  They look at the history of the Church, and the Crusades, for example, and then they fall into the belief that wars over God have killed more people than any other kind and this is PATENTLY FALSE.

Wars for land and resources have easily killed more people but it's easier to make the point about why a person hates or mistrusts religion by attributing even more evil than is merited.  The ultimate truth for me is that my relationship with my Creator isn't dependent on setting foot in a church though I do believe that a good church family is a help in times of crisis.

The best explanation I've ever heard about religion and how people perceive it was in a Dan Brown book.  I think it was ANGELS AND DEMONS.  The symbologist was speaking with a priest who asked him if he believed in God.  He began talking about religion and the priest said  (paraphrasing) "I didn't ask you if you believed what men say about God I asked if you believe in God"

Religions are the efforts of human beings to attempt to understand and yes, to use, belief in God for their own benefit.  None of them are pure or holy because MEN aren't pure or holy.  

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Cookie Monster
1 minute ago, and then said:

I agree but I've also come to understand that there really is a disconnect for many intelligent people where religion is concerned.  They look at the history of the Church, and the Crusades, for example, and then they fall into the belief that wars over God have killed more people than any other kind and this is PATENTLY FALSE.

Wars for land and resources have easily killed more people but it's easier to make the point about why a person hates or mistrusts religion by attributing even more evil than is merited.  The ultimate truth for me is that my relationship with my Creator isn't dependent on setting foot in a church though I do believe that a good church family is a help in times of crisis.

The best explanation I've ever heard about religion and how people perceive it was in a Dan Brown book.  I think it was ANGELS AND DEMONS.  The symbologist was speaking with a priest who asked him if he believed in God.  He began talking about religion and the priest said  (paraphrasing) "I didn't ask you if you believed what men say about God I asked if you believe in God"

Religions are the efforts of human beings to attempt to understand and yes, to use, belief in God for their own benefit.  None of them are pure or holy because MEN aren't pure or holy.  

If people are going to be negative over religion then they can find 101 reasons not to believe in God. Just like they can find 101 reasons to be against anything they choose. We have to spot these people when we encounter them, stop their negativity spreading to us, and make our own mind up on the topic based on our own views and insights from the experience of life.

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OverSword
4 hours ago, XenoFish said:

Let's say that you've successfully destroyed another person's belief system. Their beliefs are harmless, yet you've ripped them apart.

So, do you think creating such a spiritual void is/was worth it? 

Worth it?  No.  There are many people on this site that have tried to rip my beliefs apart but they haven't done it so maybe it's not actually that easy of a thing to do.  How many times on UM have you thought you convincingly won an argument only to see the person you thrashed not moved one inch on their stance?

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zep73
4 hours ago, XenoFish said:

Let's say that you've successfully destroyed another person's belief system. Their beliefs are harmless, yet you've ripped them apart.

So, do you think creating such a spiritual void is/was worth it? 

I hope I haven't caused you any distress.
In some of the threads I've made, I like to challenge the way people think, and I love existential discussions.

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XenoFish
16 minutes ago, OverSword said:

Worth it?  No.  There are many people on this site that have tried to rip my beliefs apart but they haven't done it so maybe it's not actually that easy of a thing to do.  How many times on UM have you thought you convincingly won an argument only to see the person you thrashed not moved one inch on their stance?

I've come to the conclusion that people will believe whatever they wish to believe. However there are times where I question the 'rightness' of trying to force one belief over another. I know that not all beliefs are good, many should be questioned, but there are some who believe because it gives meaning to their lives. They harm no one because of it.

16 minutes ago, sci-nerd said:

I hope I haven't caused you any distress.
In some of the threads I've made, I like to challenge the way people think, and I love existential discussions.

Having an existential discussion is one thing, I can roll with the best. It's that I often don't seen an open ended viewpoint. A lot of the time it appears all or nothing. 

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Liquid Gardens
4 hours ago, XenoFish said:

Let's say that you've successfully destroyed another person's belief system. Their beliefs are harmless, yet you've ripped them apart.

So, do you think creating such a spiritual void is/was worth it? 

No, because you've defined their beliefs as harmless.  That doesn't apply to everyone's spiritual beliefs; if someone's belief system leads them to be racist or bigoted and they act on those beliefs, then creating a spiritual void may indeed be worth it.  That falls under the rule that supersedes spiritual beliefs:  don't take swings at people if you don't want them to swing back.

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XenoFish
1 minute ago, Liquid Gardens said:

No, because you've defined their beliefs as harmless.  That doesn't apply to everyone's spiritual beliefs; if someone's belief system leads them to be racist or bigoted and they act on those beliefs, then creating a spiritual void may indeed be worth it.  That falls under the rule that supersedes spiritual beliefs:  don't take swings at people if you don't want them to swing back.

If you want to get political there is an entire section of the forum for that. This is the spirituality vs skepticism section. Again I have to ask if someone's spiritual beliefs are harming no one, do we really have a right to destroy them? 

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XenoFish

Christianity is the whipping boy of the forum. You can't say anything in regards to Judaism or Islam because they are "protected" belief systems. We never get a paganism discussion because it always goes right to a dismissive focus without really looking at the beliefs themselves. I could try to create a discussion of say Thelema in the spirituality/religion section of UM and I can almost best it would go downhill and by the same people. 

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lightly
4 hours ago, XenoFish said:

Let's say that you've successfully destroyed another person's belief system. Their beliefs are harmless, yet you've ripped them apart.

So, do you think creating such a spiritual void is/was worth it? 

I'd say NO ... Actually destroying someone's harmless belief ,and causing them harm or unhappiness, serves no good purpose whatsoever. Imo,  It would be the purely selfish act of an egotistical , cruel P ick.

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Liquid Gardens
2 minutes ago, XenoFish said:

If you want to get political there is an entire section of the forum for that. This is the spirituality vs skepticism section. Again I have to ask if someone's spiritual beliefs are harming no one, do we really have a right to destroy them? 

It's not political, if you prefer something more vague then the harm of creating a spiritual void may be worth it if the believer is causing harm to others because of their beliefs.  That some people's spiritual beliefs are also racist or bigoted isn't a political opinion or controversial, it's a fact.  From wiki on 'Curse of Ham':

Quote

In the past, some people claimed that the curse of Ham was a biblical justification for imposing slavery or racism upon black people, although this concept is essentially an ideologically driven misconception

For Southern slave owners who were faced with the abolitionist movement to end slavery, the curse of Ham was one of the only grounds upon which Christian slave owners could formulate an ideological defense of slavery.[42] Even before slavery, in order to promote economic motivations within Europe associated with colonialism, the curse of Ham was used to shift the common Aristotelian belief that phenotypic differentiation among humans was a result of climatic difference, to a racialist perspective that phenotypic differentiation among the species was due to there being different racial types.

 

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XenoFish
Just now, Liquid Gardens said:

It's not political, if you prefer something more vague then the harm of creating a spiritual void may be worth it if the believer is causing harm to others because of their beliefs.  That some people's spiritual beliefs are also racist or bigoted isn't a political opinion or controversial, it's a fact.  From wiki on 'Curse of Ham':

 

Isn't that a religions belief rather than a spiritual one?

Link

What’s the difference between religion and spirituality?

There are some pretty clear ways in which religion and spirituality differ.

Religion: This is a specific set of organised beliefs and practices, usually shared by a community or group.

Spirituality: This is more of an individual practice, and has to do with having a sense of peace and purpose. It also relates to the process of developing beliefs around the meaning of life and connection with others, without any set spiritual values.

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zep73
12 minutes ago, XenoFish said:

Having an existential discussion is one thing, I can roll with the best. It's that I often don't seen an open ended viewpoint. A lot of the time it appears all or nothing. 

Yes, I see your point. I'll keep that in mind in the future.
My latest thread might seem "open and shut" at first glance, but I did try to give room for interpretations in the OP, by asking people what philosophy it favors, in their opinion.

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