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Xeno-Fish

Spiritual Void

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Xeno-Fish

I'll use myself as an example. Wooohooo confession time. 

I'm dabbling in chaos magick again. Doing magick, casting spells, all that jazz. What I do isn't harming anyone, it isn't affecting anyone, nor does it lead to spiritual arrogance. By engaging with some magical thinking with the full intent of changing my conscious experience. Am I actually harming others?

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Desertrat56
7 minutes ago, XenoFish said:

I'll use myself as an example. Wooohooo confession time. 

I'm dabbling in chaos magick again. Doing magick, casting spells, all that jazz. What I do isn't harming anyone, it isn't affecting anyone, nor does it lead to spiritual arrogance. By engaging with some magical thinking with the full intent of changing my conscious experience. Am I actually harming others?

No, because you indicate you are engaging with the intent of changing yourself, the way you think or what ever other definition someone puts to conscious experience.  It is when magick is used to change someone else that it is harm. 

P.S.  I think that a lot of times preaching does cause harm, not the guy standing on the street corner, the authority figure condemning the congregation or singling out one person in front of all the others.  Or decreeing that something naturally human is wrong.  And I am not talking just about religious preaching, there are people who don't know science preaching about their misunderstanding of science as well.

Edited by Desertrat56
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Liquid Gardens
4 minutes ago, XenoFish said:

Most of the time I don't care what a person believes if no one is getting hurt by it. 

Same here.  I just don't think there's anything wrong with still debating or criticizing a belief on this board even if the belief itself is harmless.  It's way too easy for people to confuse criticism of an idea with a personal criticism of the person holding that idea.  On religious/spiritual topics it can be especially fraught, but that's also why I think that we have two separate boards here for Spirituality topics.

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Xeno-Fish
1 minute ago, Desertrat56 said:

No, because you indicate you are engaging with the intent of changing yourself, the way you think or what ever other definition someone puts to conscious experience.  It is when magick is used to change someone else that it is harm. 

That's the thing, it doesn't affect anyone else. Any results from "cursing" someone is just confirmation bias. Unless that person is informed of it. Then you get a nocebo effect. 

Even if someone did have an issue with what I was doing. I could explain it very easy. Then again I also don't have to care what they thought.

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spartan max2

I love philosophical and moral questions like this. 

The deeper you think about it the more layers there are to it I think.

On one hand I would say that it's wrong to aggressively go after someone's beliefs or spirituality if it makes them happy and provides them comfort.

On the other hand, as an atheist, I think atheist being outspoken has been benifical for society for the most part.

So idk where the line gets drawn. 

I don't seek people out to argue with them but if they honestly ask me a question I can't lie to them about how I feel and what I believe. 

I do also agree that I have a "spiritual void" of sorts from losing my belief in spirituality. 

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Desertrat56
Just now, XenoFish said:

That's the thing, it doesn't affect anyone else. Any results from "cursing" someone is just confirmation bias. Unless that person is informed of it. Then you get a nocebo effect. 

Even if someone did have an issue with what I was doing. I could explain it very easy. Then again I also don't have to care what they thought.

Right, but there are people charging others to do "love magick" or "curses", those people are doing harm to those they charge and allowing harm to those the customers want changed.  Intent is key. 

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Liquid Gardens
9 minutes ago, XenoFish said:

I'm dabbling in chaos magick again. Doing magick, casting spells, all that jazz. What I do isn't harming anyone, it isn't affecting anyone, nor does it lead to spiritual arrogance. By engaging with some magical thinking with the full intent of changing my conscious experience. Am I actually harming others?

I would definitely say no.  I'm pretty sure that your version of magick doesn't involve this, but I'd also argue that even if you thought that you were somehow doing real supernatural magic you're probably still not harming others.  But if you did think that you were doing real magic, is there an issue with people debating and criticizing that idea even if it's a harmless idea?  I'd argue there shouldn't necessarily be an issue there; whether an idea is harmfully 'destroyed' or 'crushed' would be up to the believer, not the person challenging it.

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Xeno-Fish
5 minutes ago, Desertrat56 said:

Right, but there are people charging others to do "love magick" or "curses", those people are doing harm to those they charge and allowing harm to those the customers want changed.  Intent is key. 

Kinda iffy on that. Firstly they made a choice to see the psychic or witch. Secondly I do agree in a way. Casting a blessing on someone might create positive motivation or instill false hope. A curse could justify someone's negative feelings towards another, resulting in self validation. Again we fall into the trap of subjectivity. Granted there are those who intentionally wish to sucker someone out of money.

7 minutes ago, Liquid Gardens said:

I would definitely say no.  I'm pretty sure that your version of magick doesn't involve this, but I'd also argue that even if you thought that you were somehow doing real supernatural magic you're probably still not harming others.  But if you did think that you were doing real magic, is there an issue with people debating and criticizing that idea even if it's a harmless idea?  I'd argue there shouldn't necessarily be an issue there; whether an idea is harmfully 'destroyed' or 'crushed' would be up to the believer, not the person challenging it.

I think you and others have read enough about my perspective to answer any question that might arise.

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Desertrat56
15 minutes ago, XenoFish said:

Kinda iffy on that. Firstly they made a choice to see the psychic or witch. Secondly I do agree in a way. Casting a blessing on someone might create positive motivation or instill false hope. A curse could justify someone's negative feelings towards another, resulting in self validation. Again we fall into the trap of subjectivity. Granted there are those who intentionally wish to sucker someone out of money.

I think you and others have read enough about my perspective to answer any question that might arise.

Well, I was thinking of the Love potion type or curse type, where the person hiring  a curandera or witch or what ever has intent to either do harm or force someone to something.  For me the intent includes the practitioner if they charge for it and claim to do something.  They could be respectful and say, "No I don't do that kind of thing", but they want the money so they participate in harmful intent (I do consider love potions etc. to be harmful as it goes against free will).

If someone's intent is a blessing I don't see harm in that as long as it is not "Please make sure my son gets job A" instead of give my son a blessing so he will feel confident enough to find a job that he likes, though maybe the son could be an artist that can find a way without a job, so even that is too specific.  I guess I can get pretty nit picky about it, but it really boils down to intent and desire for outcome.  If you pray for your relative to come to jesus because you feel it is the only way for them, you are interfering in free will.  You can pray for them to find what they need to be ok with no expectations.  To me that is different, open ended, and general good wishes.

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Stubbly_Dooright
9 hours ago, XenoFish said:

Let's say that you've successfully destroyed another person's belief system. Their beliefs are harmless, yet you've ripped them apart.

So, do you think creating such a spiritual void is/was worth it? 

I think this is an interesting thought here. :yes:  

Now, for one, I probably would have 'fall on the ground, drunk' if I just successfully destroyed another person's belief system. 

Well.................................. wait a minute. Another exception would be if I was the victim of someone trying very bullishly to destroy my belief system. Then, I would turn it around and give them a taste of their medicine. ;)  :devil:  Yes, I would use my belief system. 

Anyhow, I wouldn't think I would destroy someone's belief system, if they are harmless. If they depend on it. If they need it, I would feel bad if I succeeded. 

So, if I actually did this, no, creating a spiritual void would definitely be not worth it. 

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Stubbly_Dooright
4 hours ago, Liquid Gardens said:
4 hours ago, XenoFish said:

I also know that some people are more spiritual than religious without all the woo soaked weirdness.

Agreed, I guess I just think that there are other people who are more spiritual than religious with all the woo soaked weirdness.  I'd agree with you though that it seems the harmful stuff tends to fall under more 'religion' than 'non-religious spirituality'.

I often wonder, if I'm one or the other. Sometimes, I think I one of them, it just depends on the day and my mood. :o  

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Stubbly_Dooright
4 hours ago, XenoFish said:
4 hours ago, Desertrat56 said:

No, because you indicate you are engaging with the intent of changing yourself, the way you think or what ever other definition someone puts to conscious experience.  It is when magick is used to change someone else that it is harm. 

That's the thing, it doesn't affect anyone else. Any results from "cursing" someone is just confirmation bias. Unless that person is informed of it. Then you get a nocebo effect. 

Even if someone did have an issue with what I was doing. I could explain it very easy. Then again I also don't have to care what they thought.

And that's what I think, when considering you and your path and the point here. You are in a subjective and personal thing, in which I believe, is no one else's business. I personally don't get why there are some who want to change something that is personal and private for you. And, I say this in a general manner. 

If it's a control thing, then they are the problem. 

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Stubbly_Dooright
4 hours ago, spartan max2 said:

I love philosophical and moral questions like this. 

The deeper you think about it the more layers there are to it I think.

On one hand I would say that it's wrong to aggressively go after someone's beliefs or spirituality if it makes them happy and provides them comfort.

On the other hand, as an atheist, I think atheist being outspoken has been benifical for society for the most part.

So idk where the line gets drawn. 

I don't seek people out to argue with them but if they honestly ask me a question I can't lie to them about how I feel and what I believe. 

I do also agree that I have a "spiritual void" of sorts from losing my belief in spirituality. 

When I consider what is being said in this thread, I constantly have this question of, "who has the right to judge and be controlling of someone else?" 

If it is harmful, shouldn't one contact the authorities to handle it? Would it be considered a form of religious or secular vigilantism that a person does to try to cause that void?

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psyche101
11 hours ago, XenoFish said:

Let's say that you've successfully destroyed another person's belief system. Their beliefs are harmless, yet you've ripped them apart.

So, do you think creating such a spiritual void is/was worth it? 

A staunch believer is not going to consider other points of view. A person is more likely to pull that cloak of belief ever tighter about them. Surely you have seen countless examples of this in this forum. 

Personally I have been pleased about the subjects I have changed my views of because smarter people pointed the way. Some horses do drink the water. 

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psyche101
10 hours ago, XenoFish said:

A lot of time it truly appears that beliefs are purposefully stomped put rather than discussed. Even the believers are guilt of this. 

My thoughts are more focused on the effect of having an innocent (harmless) belief intentionally crush. A person who,believes in god because it gives meaning to their life, then getting that ripped away leaving an emotional void. 

Pretty much I'm tired of evangelical atheism. 

There's no discussion at all without initiation and it takes two every time. I'm seeing religious based threads outnumber atheist oriented threads like 100 to 1. I don't go onto the believers section, but believers come to the skeptic section to preach. If one is going to talk BS, one should be ready to be called out in it. Is PGs belief in breatharinaism directly killing people? No. But people who see his posts might think he actually knows something about it and through that inspiration die trying it. Darwin pool candidates take down others with them sometimes. I don't see the value, nor any reason to admire those without the fortitude to face the world as it is and have to build mental crutches. What's so admirable about that? 

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Stubbly_Dooright
9 hours ago, psyche101 said:
20 hours ago, XenoFish said:

A lot of time it truly appears that beliefs are purposefully stomped put rather than discussed. Even the believers are guilt of this. 

My thoughts are more focused on the effect of having an innocent (harmless) belief intentionally crush. A person who,believes in god because it gives meaning to their life, then getting that ripped away leaving an emotional void. 

Pretty much I'm tired of evangelical atheism. 

There's no discussion at all without initiation and it takes two every time. I'm seeing religious based threads outnumber atheist oriented threads like 100 to 1. I don't go onto the believers section, but believers come to the skeptic section to preach. If one is going to talk BS, one should be ready to be called out in it. Is PGs belief in breatharinaism directly killing people? No. But people who see his posts might think he actually knows something about it and through that inspiration die trying it. Darwin pool candidates take down others with them sometimes. I don't see the value, nor any reason to admire those without the fortitude to face the world as it is and have to build mental crutches. What's so admirable about that? 

For the record, I think Xeno makes a very good point with this thread. :yes:  

Though, reading psyche’s post here, it reminds me how there are many who initiate an atmosphere of self-righteous lecturing, that seems to be an appearance of all knowing of others, to the point of assuming a person is behaving like the self-righteous spouter. 

Examples are saying someone else is ‘ignoring’ God, including as a child, not realizing or not naming how is it God talks. And, I’m including the assumption that everyone went to church as a child and saying they are ignoring God there, when some, like myself, didn’t go and there was no situation to ignore that. I often, more so then than now, where I asked them the important question of how a child can ignore religious things, if they didn’t experience religious things as a kid in a free country? I often get ignored after that, and I wonder, did I spark a thought of shock? Do I feel good about it? Only when it’s to, sorry about this, pay back someone whose intent was to shame me. 

Ok, so maybe I think of it as when some use their belief to actually harm, like shaming someone else. 

As to think of someone whose belief is their priority in their lives and wanting others to take part, (yet not at all bothering me), well I would be torn on this. It’s not bothering me, but I do see them causing problems to others. I would think, it’s not to tear down their beliefs, but to block them, (at the least) from harming others. 

If I made sense there. 

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Xeno-Fish

I'm honestly not sure why I started this thread.

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Desertrat56
1 minute ago, XenoFish said:

I'm honestly not sure why I started this thread.

Was it boredom or an experiment?

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Stubbly_Dooright
25 minutes ago, XenoFish said:

I'm honestly not sure why I started this thread.

I thought you made a very good point.

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danydandan
On 6/24/2020 at 3:57 PM, XenoFish said:

Let's say that you've successfully destroyed another person's belief system. Their beliefs are harmless, yet you've ripped them apart.

So, do you think creating such a spiritual void is/was worth it? 

I read through the first page of responses and was kinda disheartened by the amount of people who over looked. "Their beliefs are harmless."

Just an observation.

However If I knew someone who ripped apart a harmless belief system on someone we would not be friends for much longer. In my opinion it is deplorable.

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Xeno-Fish
37 minutes ago, Desertrat56 said:

Was it boredom or an experiment?

Just looking for honest answers to what I thought was a simple question.

 

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Desertrat56
2 minutes ago, XenoFish said:

Just looking for honest answers to what I thought was a simple question.

 

OK.  I thought it was simple as well. 

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Xeno-Fish
7 minutes ago, Desertrat56 said:

OK.  I thought it was simple as well. 

It came about as a result of me questioning myself. Asking if it was really worth destroying a person's beliefs and wondering about the emotional vacuum doing so leaves. 

I know not all beliefs are good, I just wonder how much good or how much damage I actually do.

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Desertrat56
Just now, XenoFish said:

It came about as a result of me questioning myself. Asking if it was really worth destroying a person's beliefs and wondering about the emotional vacuum doing so leaves. 

I know not all beliefs are good, I just wonder how much good or how much damage I actually do.

I think it depends on the person.  If someone needs others to fill the void of beliefs for them what good does it do to bother with them at all?  If someone is open minded there will be no destruction without them filling that void with new beliefs automatically, and anything in between is still dependent on the other, not you.

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Liquid Gardens
20 minutes ago, danydandan said:

I read through the first page of responses and was kinda disheartened by the amount of people who over looked. "Their beliefs are harmless."

Just an observation.

Guess I don't see that, I also see people acknowledging what you say was overlooked and then adding additional commentary, in my case because the question as posed seems to kinda have an obvious answer (as evidenced by the fact that no one here's actually taking the position that it is cool to attack someone over their harmless beliefs).  That, and because this is a discussion forum of course.

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