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Xeno-Fish

Spiritual Void

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Stubbly_Dooright
3 hours ago, Liquid Gardens said:
3 hours ago, danydandan said:

I read through the first page of responses and was kinda disheartened by the amount of people who over looked. "Their beliefs are harmless."

Just an observation.

Guess I don't see that, I also see people acknowledging what you say was overlooked and then adding additional commentary, in my case because the question as posed seems to kinda have an obvious answer (as evidenced by the fact that no one here's actually taking the position that it is cool to attack someone over their harmless beliefs).  That, and because this is a discussion forum of course.

I've decided to go back and reread Xeno's original post. Starting off with the first part: 

Quote

Let's say that you've successfully destroyed another person's belief system.

I try to imagine myself to have done that. Is it understandable that I can't imagine myself doing that? Or, am I misunderstanding something here? I fill like, doing something like this is like having some very evil intent. Is this intent for the reason to help me as a person who ripped at their personal belief system, or to help the person it's done to? 

I often consider some, (who have attempted to do so to me in the past) and think they are doing it for themselves. I maybe wrong in assuming I'm not like that (of course, I can't say I'm all perfect, pure, and just thoughtfully wonder all of the time) but it seems this task is filled with negative reasons. Why do this to someone, if you're not really wanting to help them. (I must point out, I know trying to change someone's belief system is more than likely not helping them, but my point is in the thought of why doing it.) 

I don't know, I'm sorry Xeno, I'm really not sure if I'm getting the point here. And that's on me, and my stupid slight learning disability. 

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Xeno-Fish
59 minutes ago, Stubbly_Dooright said:

I've decided to go back and reread Xeno's original post. Starting off with the first part: 

I try to imagine myself to have done that. Is it understandable that I can't imagine myself doing that? Or, am I misunderstanding something here? I fill like, doing something like this is like having some very evil intent. Is this intent for the reason to help me as a person who ripped at their personal belief system, or to help the person it's done to? 

I often consider some, (who have attempted to do so to me in the past) and think they are doing it for themselves. I maybe wrong in assuming I'm not like that (of course, I can't say I'm all perfect, pure, and just thoughtfully wonder all of the time) but it seems this task is filled with negative reasons. Why do this to someone, if you're not really wanting to help them. (I must point out, I know trying to change someone's belief system is more than likely not helping them, but my point is in the thought of why doing it.) 

I don't know, I'm sorry Xeno, I'm really not sure if I'm getting the point here. And that's on me, and my stupid slight learning disability. 

You're good Mama Bear. The reason I ask is that I have many questions revolving around motivation. Why people feel the need to be so aggressive against a belief. Is that spiritual/religious belief really all that bad? Do those who follow it, follow it to the letter? 

Let's use Christianity for example. How many of those who follow it bible thumping fire and brimstone types? It's not like everyone one of them is at a Westboro level. And yes I acknowledge we do get preachers around here. 

If someone wishes to believe in an afterlife or reincarnation for that matter, fine. It's when they get very preach about it. Like how some will tell others they're going to hell if they don't follow Jesus. Something along that line. Grandpa Greenman is one of the most level headed pagans I have ever come across. I know you have an eclectic belief system Stubbs and it has never negatively affect me, nor anyone else to my knowledge. We even have a few Christians who are good people. 

The origin of this thread started out as me trying to understand why I enjoy bashing "positive thinking" so much. The honest answer is jealousy. I can't safely be that optimistic. I can't go all polyanna optimism in life. So I "attack" it. In order to validate my pessimism. Which makes me wonder if others who bash beliefs are doing something similar. As a means of reinforcing their own reality tunnels.

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Desertrat56
4 minutes ago, XenoFish said:

The origin of this thread started out as me trying to understand why I enjoy bashing "positive thinking" so much. The honest answer is jealousy. I can't safely be that optimistic. I can't go all polyanna optimism in life. So I "attack" it. In order to validate my pessimism. Which makes me wonder if others who bash beliefs are doing something similar. As a means of reinforcing their own reality tunnels.

I think part of the problem is that you misunderstand optimism.  It is not pollyanna-ish, everything is always wonderful.  It is a way to resilience.  Nothing is perfect, nothing will go 100 % the way you want 100 % of the time.  Optimists typically focus on what is right and attempt to fix what they can that isn't and allow that there are some things that can't be fixed.  A pessimistic view focus's on what is perceived as wrong, rather than what is perceived as right.  Also, an optimist is content with OK rather than great, great is fleeting, but OK is sustainable.

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Xeno-Fish
1 minute ago, Desertrat56 said:

I think part of the problem is that you misunderstand optimism.  It is not pollyanna-ish, everything is always wonderful.  It is a way to resilience.  Nothing is perfect, nothing will go 100 % the way you want 100 % of the time.  Optimists typically focus on what is right and attempt to fix what they can that isn't and allow that there are some things that can't be fixed.  A pessimistic view focus's on what is perceived as wrong, rather than what is perceived as right.  Also, an optimist is content with OK rather than great, great is fleeting, but OK is sustainable.

My experience with the optimist around here amount to me shutting the hell up about how I felt. Without so much as a good idea passed my way. That's why I am opposed to it. Plus the whole idea of positive thinking often has negative effects. I'd rather deal with realist than optimist any day. It was the realist who listened, it was them who helped. The optimist told me to shut up. As someone who found a bright side to pessimism, I can't help but see and acknowledge the negative of what can go wrong. It is to me a way of knowing exactly what I do not want. So I can "attack" that more efficiently. 

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psyche101
12 hours ago, Stubbly_Dooright said:

For the record, I think Xeno makes a very good point with this thread. :yes:  

I thought it was just a stab at posters who challenge beliefs. I don't see that beliefs can be torn down without the subject facing accountability. I just don't see that as ever being a bad thing.

Quote

Though, reading psyche’s post here, it reminds me how there are many who initiate an atmosphere of self-righteous lecturing, that seems to be an appearance of all knowing of others, to the point of assuming a person is behaving like the self-righteous spouter. 

Examples are saying someone else is ‘ignoring’ God, including as a child, not realizing or not naming how is it God talks. And, I’m including the assumption that everyone went to church as a child and saying they are ignoring God there, when some, like myself, didn’t go and there was no situation to ignore that. I often, more so then than now, where I asked them the important question of how a child can ignore religious things, if they didn’t experience religious things as a kid in a free country? I often get ignored after that, and I wonder, did I spark a thought of shock?

That's exactly where I'm going, our Mr. Walker being a perfect example. His beliefs in God's, Aliens, Science and himself are obviously wildly exaggerated where they aren't straight out imagination. Everybody calls him out. Constantly. Nobody has any reservations regarding tearing down his beliefs, yet for other posters who use the 'right' spiritual terminology there is support rather than challenge. 

Personally I don't see the difference. If a claim is made, it can be challenged. That's the point of this section. If people prefer to simply discuss beliefs, the believers section should be sanctuary for those discussions. Everything has a place except double standards. 

Quote

Do I feel good about it? Only when it’s to, sorry about this, pay back someone whose intent was to shame me. 

Ok, so maybe I think of it as when some use their belief to actually harm, like shaming someone else. 

If someone believes something silly, I honestly think it is a favour to show them where they hajv gone wrong. Which is where we get back to horses drinking. If someone doesn't want to challenge a vested interest, they will walk away. 

Quote

As to think of someone whose belief is their priority in their lives and wanting others to take part, (yet not at all bothering me), well I would be torn on this. It’s not bothering me, but I do see them causing problems to others. I would think, it’s not to tear down their beliefs, but to block them, (at the least) from harming others. 

If I made sense there. 

100% 

Just like PGs belief that breatharinaism is valid when it's really more akin to manslaughter. 

Edited by psyche101
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Sherapy
On 6/24/2020 at 1:30 PM, XenoFish said:

I'll use myself as an example. Wooohooo confession time. 

I'm dabbling in chaos magick again. Doing magick, casting spells, all that jazz. What I do isn't harming anyone, it isn't affecting anyone, nor does it lead to spiritual arrogance. By engaging with some magical thinking with the full intent of changing my conscious experience. Am I actually harming others?

Way to go X, I’d say heck no your not preaching or insisting anyone else must be like you to be happy. 
 

 

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Davros of Skaro
2 hours ago, XenoFish said:

The origin of this thread started out as me trying to understand why I enjoy bashing "positive thinking" so much. The honest answer is jealousy. I can't safely be that optimistic. I can't go all polyanna optimism in life. So I "attack" it. In order to validate my pessimism. Which makes me wonder if others who bash beliefs are doing something similar. As a means of reinforcing their own reality tunnels.

Now if only you started out with this info.

I don't know, or can think of a situation where someone had their spirituality ripped from them. If they loose it, it's usually a process overtime.

For me if they kept it to themselves, or to a like minded group, then I don't care. But when they try to spread it, I will counter. What I know scares them, and they will run away except the outright mentally ill.

I find it more about keeping it contained rather than a cure anyway. Anything personal in my motivation other than my main (logical to me) reasons is that I grew up around these bad ideas in one form, or another. Wasted time on some, and a source of facepalm on others. I'm glad I watched PBS science shows as a kid which helped balance things out.

 

Edited by Davros of Skaro
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jmccr8
3 hours ago, XenoFish said:

You're good Mama Bear. The reason I ask is that I have many questions revolving around motivation. Why people feel the need to be so aggressive against a belief. Is that spiritual/religious belief really all that bad? Do those who follow it, follow it to the letter? 

Let's use Christianity for example. How many of those who follow it bible thumping fire and brimstone types? It's not like everyone one of them is at a Westboro level. And yes I acknowledge we do get preachers around here. 

If someone wishes to believe in an afterlife or reincarnation for that matter, fine. It's when they get very preach about it. Like how some will tell others they're going to hell if they don't follow Jesus. Something along that line. Grandpa Greenman is one of the most level headed pagans I have ever come across. I know you have an eclectic belief system Stubbs and it has never negatively affect me, nor anyone else to my knowledge. We even have a few Christians who are good people. 

The origin of this thread started out as me trying to understand why I enjoy bashing "positive thinking" so much. The honest answer is jealousy. I can't safely be that optimistic. I can't go all polyanna optimism in life. So I "attack" it. In order to validate my pessimism. Which makes me wonder if others who bash beliefs are doing something similar. As a means of reinforcing their own reality tunnels.

Hi Xeno

I like what you said here.:tu:

Okay, personally I don't try to destroy anything in anyones life in either my physical world or here online so my opinion will reflect that hopefully in expressing it.

In the majority of my relationships are about money(clients) so as long as their cash is good we are good and in other relationships I usually let people come to me to know me because of what I do and in most cases see something positive in knowing me. If they came to learn trade skills and showed the desire to learn as well as the self discipline to be there then yes I try to help them in a constructive way even if I do not agree with other aspects of their life if they are not a detriment to the whole. I have never asked anyone not to believe but am interested in why, what were the circumstances that gave them a reason to believe and there are a lot(the majority)of humanity that are good people and do respect how they reflect that belief. I have a belief that no one here has ever challenged likely because I am not here to promote it because it is admittedly my simple personal way of seeing the world around me and the intelligence(curse?:lol:) to interpret in in my own way.:D

jmccr8 

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Stubbly_Dooright
13 hours ago, XenoFish said:

You're good Mama Bear. The reason I ask is that I have many questions revolving around motivation. Why people feel the need to be so aggressive against a belief. Is that spiritual/religious belief really all that bad? Do those who follow it, follow it to the letter? 

First, thank you! :wub:

As I have mentioned before, I think you made a wonderful thread, with some very good thought provoking questions. I can understand with this. 

As I reflect on this last sentence in this part I quoted from you, I wonder if I follow mine to the latter. So, despite my belief being unique with only one follower, I don't I actually follow it to the latter. :o  

Quote

Let's use Christianity for example. How many of those who follow it bible thumping fire and brimstone types? It's not like everyone one of them is at a Westboro level. And yes I acknowledge we do get preachers around here. 

If someone wishes to believe in an afterlife or reincarnation for that matter, fine. It's when they get very preach about it. Like how some will tell others they're going to hell if they don't follow Jesus. Something along that line. Grandpa Greenman is one of the most level headed pagans I have ever come across. I know you have an eclectic belief system Stubbs and it has never negatively affect me, nor anyone else to my knowledge. We even have a few Christians who are good people. 

I agree with you about Grandpa Greenman. As for me, I like to hope it doesn't have a negative affect on anyone, and I'm glad it has no negative effects on you. I like to think, my belief helps me be positive toward everyone. For, I feel, that my belief is for me to behave well, and not to make others behave like I think my belief wants them to. 

Well............................ let me reflect on this a bit. If there is some form of negativity of my belief, I feel I sometimes think my belief will make others behave like I think my belief wants them to. Not for me to push it myself, but there being, as you put it, a woo effect doing it for them. In reality, I'm not doing anything physically to do that. I depend on my belief only, and hope it is working. *shrugs* 

If that part makes sense. And, I think you and other could look at it as negative, and I would understand that. :yes:  

Quote

The origin of this thread started out as me trying to understand why I enjoy bashing "positive thinking" so much. The honest answer is jealousy. I can't safely be that optimistic. I can't go all polyanna optimism in life. So I "attack" it. In order to validate my pessimism. Which makes me wonder if others who bash beliefs are doing something similar. As a means of reinforcing their own reality tunnels.

I am impressed with your honestly, your reflection, and your bravery to explore that. And I find this interesting, because I credit you, (among some here) who have discussed elements of belief and how some of it as negative, and I have done that with my own. It has caused me to look at my belief in many different lights, and caused me to be more realistic to my beliefs and what I consider them. :yes:  

I can understand the jealousy, because I wonder if I have that sometimes. Though, I sometimes counter it with me using my belief for selfish reasons. So, I wonder, if there are those, (me including) that is bashing others because we want to further believe in our own. (yes, I continue to reflect on my belief) 

I also can understand the effect of those being so polyanna about their beliefs and having that spill over to their desire to have everyone else be so polyanna (and more so using their beliefs on them) I sometimes welcome the pessimism, because if something is wrong, it needs to be acknowledged and that is realistic. I don't want to be pushed into feeling happy, when it actuality I'm not. I think, that screws up the psyche. 

Honesty, in my feeling, is better than lying, when it comes to feelings. I think, one can go forward with the honesty and end up being held back with fake happiness. 

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Stubbly_Dooright
12 hours ago, psyche101 said:
On 6/25/2020 at 8:54 AM, Stubbly_Dooright said:

For the record, I think Xeno makes a very good point with this thread. :yes:  

I thought it was just a stab at posters who challenge beliefs. I don't see that beliefs can be torn down without the subject facing accountability. I just don't see that as ever being a bad thing.

That's what I thought, and I feel it is making them see it for themselves and question their reasons for it. 

12 hours ago, psyche101 said:
Quote

Though, reading psyche’s post here, it reminds me how there are many who initiate an atmosphere of self-righteous lecturing, that seems to be an appearance of all knowing of others, to the point of assuming a person is behaving like the self-righteous spouter. 

Examples are saying someone else is ‘ignoring’ God, including as a child, not realizing or not naming how is it God talks. And, I’m including the assumption that everyone went to church as a child and saying they are ignoring God there, when some, like myself, didn’t go and there was no situation to ignore that. I often, more so then than now, where I asked them the important question of how a child can ignore religious things, if they didn’t experience religious things as a kid in a free country? I often get ignored after that, and I wonder, did I spark a thought of shock?

That's exactly where I'm going, our Mr. Walker being a perfect example. His beliefs in God's, Aliens, Science and himself are obviously wildly exaggerated where they aren't straight out imagination. Everybody calls him out. Constantly. Nobody has any reservations regarding tearing down his beliefs, yet for other posters who use the 'right' spiritual terminology there is support rather than challenge. 

Personally I don't see the difference. If a claim is made, it can be challenged. That's the point of this section. If people prefer to simply discuss beliefs, the believers section should be sanctuary for those discussions. Everything has a place except double standards. 

I think, I see what you mean. I feel, I put things I believe in as a subjective and personal point of view, and opinion in some cases. Just so, I'm not making statements or claims, that I can't back up. It's just how I see it and I understand if it's not believed. I certainly don't expect others to be purposely pushed into it, I just use it to show my behavior behind it and hope it helps those who want to be helped or just entertained by it at the least. 

I'm the same way in your thinking, anyone making claims on something that is purely in a subjective and unprovable manner, I think, should be called out on it. I even think, it's dangerous if not called out. I think, if it's not, I worry about those who believe it and in the end, it's not really true and that could cause misery for them. 

12 hours ago, psyche101 said:
Quote

Do I feel good about it? Only when it’s to, sorry about this, pay back someone whose intent was to shame me. 

Ok, so maybe I think of it as when some use their belief to actually harm, like shaming someone else. 

If someone believes something silly, I honestly think it is a favour to show them where they hajv gone wrong. Which is where we get back to horses drinking. If someone doesn't want to challenge a vested interest, they will walk away. 

Quote

As to think of someone whose belief is their priority in their lives and wanting others to take part, (yet not at all bothering me), well I would be torn on this. It’s not bothering me, but I do see them causing problems to others. I would think, it’s not to tear down their beliefs, but to block them, (at the least) from harming others. 

If I made sense there. 

100% 

Just like PGs belief that breatharinaism is valid when it's really more akin to manslaughter. 

:tu:

I'm assuming you and I are in the same mindset about this. :)  

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Desertrat56
14 hours ago, XenoFish said:

My experience with the optimist around here amount to me shutting the hell up about how I felt. Without so much as a good idea passed my way. That's why I am opposed to it. Plus the whole idea of positive thinking often has negative effects. I'd rather deal with realist than optimist any day. It was the realist who listened, it was them who helped. The optimist told me to shut up. As someone who found a bright side to pessimism, I can't help but see and acknowledge the negative of what can go wrong. It is to me a way of knowing exactly what I do not want. So I can "attack" that more efficiently. 

I don't think the bliss bunnies are optimists, they are avoidists.  They may claim to be optimists but what you describe is avoidists.  The goal is reslilience and being ok, happy but allowing other emotions when they happen.  Anyone who shuns you because they can't deal with how you feel, in essence denying you your feelings is as unbalanced as someone who can't get out of depression.  Optimists experience all emotions, including depression, but they have ways of changing their mind about things, pulling themselves up out of the gutter and crawling until they can walk again.  I think you have experienced an extreme betrayal of  you beliefs and probably those beliefs kept you at a very "high" level of confidence so that when you were "betrayed" you hit the ground hard.  It takes time to get back up, it takes determination.  You seem to have that, you are functioning for the most part normally, buiding things etc.  You aren't just sitting on the couch drinking beer and complaining non stop about how you can never get a break.  Find some real optimists, maybe some artists, to hang out with.

Maybe my definition of optimist is too personally based on my experience, but I do not consider "Positive only allowed" as being optimistic.

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Xeno-Fish
1 hour ago, Desertrat56 said:

I think you have experienced an extreme betrayal of  you beliefs and probably those beliefs kept you at a very "high" level of confidence so that when you were "betrayed" you hit the ground hard.

You have no idea. I used to be one of those happy energetic types. Not a blind optimist, but I kept my head held up. Life however teaches different lessons and expectations rarely match reality. 

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danydandan
2 hours ago, Desertrat56 said:

I don't think the bliss bunnies are optimists, they are avoidists.

What a brilliant observation.

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lightly

I don't think it's generally all that easy to "destroy" most people's beliefs. ?   I also think that most beliefs are just that...'beliefs' that's why we call them beliefs instead of 'knowns' ?     So, I reckon that ,usually, when beliefs are attacked...the believer listens and then thinks.   (((..Oya?  Well maybe your right..and maybe your wrong ..mr.smartypants.)))  :P

my own beliefs are basically huge generalizations...with a universe of wiggle room built in.  The only thing I actually feel that I KNOW . .is that I believe in         s o m e t h i n g     which in my belief also just happens to be   e v e r y t h I n g.   Please feel free to prove me wrong or try to destroy my belief. . :P

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Xeno-Fish
1 hour ago, lightly said:

my own beliefs are basically huge generalizations...with a universe of wiggle room built in.

I honestly think that is the best way to be. 

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Stubbly_Dooright
1 hour ago, danydandan said:

 

4 hours ago, Desertrat56 said:

I don't think the bliss bunnies are optimists, they are avoidists.

What a brilliant observation.

 

I agree! I think what both Desert and Xeno recently said hits right on the money with me. 

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Sherapy
7 hours ago, Desertrat56 said:

I don't think the bliss bunnies are optimists, they are avoidists.  They may claim to be optimists but what you describe is avoidists.  The goal is reslilience and being ok, happy but allowing other emotions when they happen.  Anyone who shuns you because they can't deal with how you feel, in essence denying you your feelings is as unbalanced as someone who can't get out of depression.  Optimists experience all emotions, including depression, but they have ways of changing their mind about things, pulling themselves up out of the gutter and crawling until they can walk again.  I think you have experienced an extreme betrayal of  you beliefs and probably those beliefs kept you at a very "high" level of confidence so that when you were "betrayed" you hit the ground hard.  It takes time to get back up, it takes determination.  You seem to have that, you are functioning for the most part normally, buiding things etc.  You aren't just sitting on the couch drinking beer and complaining non stop about how you can never get a break.  Find some real optimists, maybe some artists, to hang out with.

Maybe my definition of optimist is too personally based on my experience, but I do not consider "Positive only allowed" as being optimistic.

Spot on!

For me, optimism is looking for the way to get back up, it could be the anger of a situation that motivates the movement towards a constructive solution. It is a level of trust and confidence in myself that knows I will find a way somehow, not by denying anything or by being crippled by fear, or never trusting again or only allowing certain reactions or avoiding situations. Bad shyt happens in life, we make flawed choices on occasion, so, we refine, we grow, we learn, we push on, we face ourselves we would not limit ourselves or our emotions, we embrace them. Anger has been my best friend at times, holding off on forgiveness has been self care at times, being to kind has been a bad thing at times, there have been times where I have been appropriately depressed then moved on etc. etc.

When I read your posts I glean the wisdom and maturity of your experiences, thanks for sharing. 

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Mr Walker
On 6/25/2020 at 12:27 AM, XenoFish said:

Let's say that you've successfully destroyed another person's belief system. Their beliefs are harmless, yet you've ripped them apart.

So, do you think creating such a spiritual void is/was worth it? 

What was "your" purpose?  (hypothetically)

if you converted them from cannibalism, it was a good thing.

 if you converted them to cannibalism, it was bad.

  ie to convert someone from  a destructive belief system is good, to convert them from a constructive one is bad

In general humans prosper  better with positive belief systems. These do not have to be religious, but those also work effectively.

  Thus to destroy all belief, leaving something like nihilism, would be wrong,  because it would cause harm to the individual, over time  (atheism is ok as long as the person has other positive beliefs  and values.) 

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Mr Walker
On 6/25/2020 at 1:51 AM, onlookerofmayhem said:

Ok. But what if you disagree with someone and it doesn't destroy their belief system?

I think it's an extremely difficult situation to parse out which beliefs are harmful and which are harmless. 

Who is the arbiter of such things?

I would say each individual would have to assess each belief and go from there. 

For example, my mother is someone who believes in ancient aliens, ghosts/spirits, life after death and crystal powers amongst other things. I believe in none of these.

We've had dozens of discussions on the varying subjects and it always comes down to her capitulating that the main reason she believes in such things is because, "It makes her feel good."

She has no logical justifications for these beliefs. She can provide no evidence or details into the rationale behind why she holds such views, except falsified regurgitations of woo television shows she has watched. 

I don't disagree with her merely to "rip apart her beliefs." I disagree with her because I have come to different conclusions than she has on certain subjects. 

I refuse to lie and placate her by letting her live in a fantasy world.

I usually don't initiate conversations about things we disagree on. She will ask me my opinions on certain topics and I give her my honest, more educated opinion about whatever. 

I don't make any effort to badger her about her beliefs.

So in no way am I actively trying to destroy any of her beliefs, but I feel I'm entitled to my beliefs.

Are any of her beliefs harmful? 

Not really. They could be, but not in any overt ways.

But am I supposed to just smile and nod and tell her everything she believes concerning such things are true?

I can't see how or why I would do that.

Well, yes.

If everyone just let everyone else believe whatever they wanted to society would be anarchy. It's a huge issue the world is facing right now. Loads of people believe that everyone is "entitled to their opinion."

Which they are, but where does that leave us in the sense of which opinion is more valid than another?

We have to come to some sort of basic understanding and agreement with each other in my opinion. 

I love my mother with all my heart. She is a wonderful, caring individual. But I don't think lying to her about my opinions would be better than telling my true feelings.

Being honest and having a constructive conversation is paramount.

I'm not looking to hurt anyone's feelings, but if they are so be it. I'm not here to coddle anyone.

Very simply, if the y do no harm and more importantly "make her feel good", then you should just allow her those beliefs without argument  (although you can say you don't share them) 

She has said what many people don't realise. Beliefs make you  feel good and, in doing so, improve your mental and physical well being  

As a son you would not want endanger that  (IMO)

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Jujo-jo
On 6/24/2020 at 10:57 AM, XenoFish said:

Let's say that you've successfully destroyed another person's belief system. Their beliefs are harmless, yet you've ripped them apart.

So, do you think creating such a spiritual void is/was worth it? 

I'd like to think that most people don't intentionally do things to someone else like this but who knows, sometimes maybe I'm living in my own little fantasy world.

But just thought I'd throw this out there...

Sometimes even spritual people have spritual voids, maybe they bring it on themselves or maybe it's like writers block, maybe it's just lack of spiritual practice or maybe the lack of standing their ground and holding firmly onto what they do believe in when it is questioned. 

Then again some people are out to destroy, so yes in this case I'd have to say yes, they most likely would be proud of themselves and think it was well worth it.

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Jujo-jo
On 6/24/2020 at 12:21 PM, onlookerofmayhem said:

Ok. But what if you disagree with someone and it doesn't destroy their belief system?

I think it's an extremely difficult situation to parse out which beliefs are harmful and which are harmless. 

Who is the arbiter of such things?

I would say each individual would have to assess each belief and go from there. 

For example, my mother is someone who believes in ancient aliens, ghosts/spirits, life after death and crystal powers amongst other things. I believe in none of these.

We've had dozens of discussions on the varying subjects and it always comes down to her capitulating that the main reason she believes in such things is because, "It makes her feel good."

She has no logical justifications for these beliefs. She can provide no evidence or details into the rationale behind why she holds such views, except falsified regurgitations of woo television shows she has watched. 

I don't disagree with her merely to "rip apart her beliefs." I disagree with her because I have come to different conclusions than she has on certain subjects. 

I refuse to lie and placate her by letting her live in a fantasy world.

I usually don't initiate conversations about things we disagree on. She will ask me my opinions on certain topics and I give her my honest, more educated opinion about whatever. 

I don't make any effort to badger her about her beliefs.

So in no way am I actively trying to destroy any of her beliefs, but I feel I'm entitled to my beliefs.

Are any of her beliefs harmful? 

Not really. They could be, but not in any overt ways.

But am I supposed to just smile and nod and tell her everything she believes concerning such things are true?

I can't see how or why I would do that.

Well, yes.

If everyone just let everyone else believe whatever they wanted to society would be anarchy. It's a huge issue the world is facing right now. Loads of people believe that everyone is "entitled to their opinion."

Which they are, but where does that leave us in the sense of which opinion is more valid than another?

We have to come to some sort of basic understanding and agreement with each other in my opinion. 

I love my mother with all my heart. She is a wonderful, caring individual. But I don't think lying to her about my opinions would be better than telling my true feelings.

Being honest and having a constructive conversation is paramount.

I'm not looking to hurt anyone's feelings, but if they are so be it. I'm not here to coddle anyone.

Society is anarchy right now!

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Mr Walker
On 6/25/2020 at 5:30 AM, XenoFish said:

What exactly is so difficult about my OP? 

Here it is plain and simple.

If Person A feels a connectivity to some universal spirit and believes that doing good is the highest goal, are you willing to destroy that? If they think that doing good, finding inner peace, perhaps feeling a connection to a higher power through this while not be a turd to other people, do you feel it is right to destroy that? 

Screw religion, it's a structured approach to someone else's spiritual beliefs and cultural values we all know that. 

How can you/do you "destroy a belief" which is not based on facts but on needs  ie i could maybe convince a person that  cretinism is scientifically wrong but  I couldn't convince them that god did not exist, if they chose to believe that  The latter requires no evidences, and thus is not amenable to logical persuasion.

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Mr Walker
On 6/25/2020 at 5:48 AM, XenoFish said:

I just get the feeling that there are times, where it is almost habit around here for some to rip apart someone's belief, for no other reason than they want to. I'm not innocent in this. 

I find the idea of spirituality as meaning making interesting. I still don't like religion.

I find they  (mostly) have reasons rather  than just wanting to.

Often the y need to destroy others' beliefs in order to validate their own belief or disbelief ie "Both of us cannot be right  so you must be wrong" :)  

I like sports but i dont like organised  competitive sports with lots of rules/expectations,  and a need to win. So i see your pov. Spirituality and religions serve quite different purposes  

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Mr Walker
On 6/25/2020 at 5:49 AM, Liquid Gardens said:

Agreed, I guess I just think that there are other people who are more spiritual than religious with all the woo soaked weirdness.  I'd agree with you though that it seems the harmful stuff tends to fall under more 'religion' than 'non-religious spirituality'.

Individuals are never as dangerous ( or as powerful, or as helpful) as organised groups. 

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Mr Walker
On 6/25/2020 at 6:00 AM, XenoFish said:

I'll use myself as an example. Wooohooo confession time. 

I'm dabbling in chaos magick again. Doing magick, casting spells, all that jazz. What I do isn't harming anyone, it isn't affecting anyone, nor does it lead to spiritual arrogance. By engaging with some magical thinking with the full intent of changing my conscious experience. Am I actually harming others?

No.

And you aren't harming yourself.

Subjectively, i have thought for some time that you  are now happier with yourself  than at times in the past (That is just from the tone and content of your posts )

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