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XenoFish

Spiritual Void

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Sherapy
9 hours ago, eight bits said:

 

Fine, That about which there is no doubt is pointless to discuss.

Thank you for a scintillating conversation. Eight out.

It is crystal clear MW has the only dog in his race. 

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Sherapy
11 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

Very true.

It does surprise me that an educated and intelligent person like yourself finds so much difficulty with this.

I am sure you believe/accept  that a dog companion   helps improve  people's health and longevity     Having  a wife helps  men (but a husband doesn't help a woman)

Meditation, belonging to a group etc?  I guess you  have no problem with those established ways of improving health and longevity. Connection to family, place, and heritage? (all proven to have a beneficial effect) 

Yet strangely you deny to yourself that  something as simple as a positive faith, or regular attendance at a church, can have the same effects  via the same mechanisms.

Ask yourself   why you deny this, and not the other proven  links to longevity and better health.   

quote

Previous studies have shown that dog owners have an innate sense of comfort and increased well-being. A new paper published in Scientific Reports and conducted by Uppsala University in Sweden looked at the health records of 3.4 million of the country's residents. These records typically include personal data like marital status and whether the individual owns a pet. Researchers got additional insight from a national dog registry providing ownership information. According to the study, those with a dog for a housemate were less likely to die from cardiovascular disease or any other cause during the study's 12-year duration.

https://www.mentalfloss.com/article/516479/owning-dog-may-add-years-your-life-study-shows#:~:text=According to the study%2C those,a mean age of 57.

quote

New research reveals that while wedlock helps men to live longer, it shortens a woman's life by more than a year. Marriage helps husbands to an extra 1.7 years, but it knocks 1.4 years off the average wife's lifespan, according to the study of more than 100,000 people across Europe.Feb 26, 2006

https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/health-and-families/health-news/the-stress-of-marriage-shortens-your-life-by-a-year-if-youre-the-wife-5335547.html

 

quote

A growing body of research supports the immediate benefits of meditation, such as reduced stress and anxiety levels, lower blood pressure, and enhanced happiness. Studies on mindfulness interventions show these effects are common in as few as eight weeks. While these initial perks may be reason enough for us to practice, meditation's positive impact appears to be even more far-reaching, potentially adding years to our lives and improving cognitive function well into old age.

Meditation seems to affect longevity of the physical body in a few different ways, starting at the cellular level. Scientists have isolated length of telomeres and telomerase as indicators of cellular aging. Our cells contain chromosomes, or sequences of DNA. Telomeres are "protective protein caps" at the end of our DNA strands that allow for continued cell replication. The longer the telomere, the more times a cell can divide and refresh. Each time a cell replicates, its telomere length, and therefore its lifespan, gets shorter in a natural aging process.

How does this relate to length of human lifespan? Summarized by Elissa Epel, Ph.D., a professor in the Department of Psychiatry at the University of California San Francisco, shorter telomere length in cells is linked with poorer immune system functioning, cardiovascular disease, and degenerative conditions like osteoporosis and Alzheimer's disease. The shorter the length of our telomeres, the more susceptible our cells are to dying and the more susceptible we are to disease, as we get older.

Telomere shortening happens naturally as we age, but research now shows that it can be accelerated by stress, speeding up the aging process of the body.

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/the-science-of-meditations-effects-on-aging_b_8688678#:~:text=A growing body of research,blood pressure%2C and enhanced happiness.&text=Meditation seems to affect longevity,starting at the cellular level.

quote

 A number of studies have shown associations between attending religious services and living a long time. One of the most comprehensive, published in JAMA Internal Medicine in 2016, found that women who went to any kind of religious service more than once a week had a 33% lower chance than their secular peers of dying during the 16-year study-follow-up period. Another study, published last year in PLOS One, found that regular service attendance was linked to reductions in the body’s stress responses and even in mortality–so much so that worshippers were 55% less likely to die during the up to 18-year follow-up period than people who didn’t frequent the temple, church or mosque.

https://time.com/5159848/do-religious-people-live-longer/

So why deny the last, but accept the first three?

Or do you not accept any of them? 

Can you see how (and why)  a positive spiritual experience would have the same effects as meditation? 

Oh yes and social connectivity ( which is a significant part of going to church)? 

quote 

 One telling study showed that lack of social connection is a greater detriment to health than obesity, smoking and high blood pressure. On the the flip side, strong social connection leads to a 50% increased chance of longevity.  Social connection strengthens our immune system (research by Steve Cole shows that genes impacted by social connection also code for immune function and inflammation), helps us recover from disease faster, and may even lengthen our life. People who feel more connected to others have lower rates of anxiety and depression. Moreover, studies show they also have higher self-esteem, are more empathic to others, more trusting and cooperative and, as a consequence, others are more open to trusting and cooperating with them. Social connectedness therefore generates a positive feedback loop of social, emotional and physical well-being. Unfortunately, the opposite is also true for those who lack social connectedness. Low social connection has been generally associated with declines in physical and psychological health as well as a higher propensity to antisocial behavior that leads to further isolation.

https://www.psychologytoday.com/au/blog/feeling-it/201208/connect-thrive#:~:text=Social connection improves physical health,50% increased chance of longevity.

To bad you missed this study MW. :P
 

https://www.asiaone.com/lifestyle/nagging-good-your-husbands-health-says-study
 

https://www.healthline.com/health-news/nag-a-day-keeps-doctor-away#1

 

Edited by Sherapy
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docyabut2

Spiritual Void

Atheist vs Believers the only thing I believe is a picture I received

This picture was taken the day after my hubby had Jim died and my mom said it looks like two people standing  in our backyard

Image may contain: plant, tree, flower, grass, outdoor and nature
Edited by docyabut2
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Mr Walker
8 hours ago, Sherapy said:

It is crystal clear MW has the only dog in his race. 

That's only because others refuse to enter :) 

It is also interesting that, rather than try to rebut my points,  some use laughter to deflect, and others simply make personal comments rather than reply.

The reason for this is that my point about the connection between positive  spiritual faith/church attendance and longer /healthier lives is irrefutable .but it goes against what some like to believe about faith and religion.

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Mr Walker
6 hours ago, Sherapy said:

All  I got for the first link was an advertisement for a motor car :)  However, going by the title, it does not contradict the other study 

Ie a wife adds over a years to a husband's life A husband takes over a year from  a wife's  life. 

 The second link may actually explain WHY married men live longer 

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XenoFish
10 hours ago, docyabut2 said:

Spiritual Void

Atheist vs Believers the only thing I believe is a picture I received

This picture was taken the day after my hubby had Jim died and my mom said it looks like two people standing  in our backyard

I'm sorry for your loss, I really am, but there isn't anyone in those pictures except a doggy lawn ornament. Maybe it's a deer, hard to tell. 

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Sherapy
On 9/18/2020 at 7:31 PM, Mr Walker said:

That's only because others refuse to enter :) 

It is also interesting that, rather than try to rebut my points,  some use laughter to deflect, and others simply make personal comments rather than reply.

The reason for this is that my point about the connection between positive  spiritual faith/church attendance and longer /healthier lives is irrefutable .but it goes against what some like to believe about faith and religion.

Lol, including you. 
 

This is MW dealing with cognitive dissonance. 

Exercise, meditation/prayer, good eating habits, self care and stress management and a proactive approach to ones health by going to the doctor is a much better approach and is comprehensive for anyone. 

 


 


 

 

Edited by Sherapy
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XenoFish

This is my thread going to absolute hell. Good job folks, thanks.<_<

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Hammerclaw

23238e2d60264cbaf067212c1b743b21.jpg

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GoldenWolf
5 hours ago, Hammerclaw said:

23238e2d60264cbaf067212c1b743b21.jpg

She tweeted this yesterday, I think she might be one of those who has to say something rather than has something to say.  I think I'll pass on her.

EiYH39hWoAMUkDE?format=jpg&name=medium

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Hammerclaw
28 minutes ago, GoldenWolf said:

She tweeted this yesterday, I think she might be one of those who has to say something rather than has something to say.  I think I'll pass on her.

EiYH39hWoAMUkDE?format=jpg&name=medium

Like you just did? You outdid her, by saying nothing, at all.:nw:

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GoldenWolf
39 minutes ago, Hammerclaw said:

Like you just did? You outdid her, by saying nothing, at all.:nw:

So you embrace the greatest loss of all?

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Mr Walker
6 hours ago, Sherapy said:

Lol, including you. 
 

This is MW dealing with cognitive dissonance. 

Exercise, meditation/prayer, good eating habits, self care and stress management and a proactive approach to ones health by going to the doctor is a much better approach and is comprehensive for anyone. 

 


 


 

 

This is you attributing your own understandings  to another :) 

All the things you mentions are healthy, but WHY do you consider them   BETTER than faith/belief /church attendance, when all have the same ,or similar, clinical results ?

Studies have shown that a positive faith can reduce blood pressure as much as blood pressure medicines,  for example  And is far cheaper :) 

I would suggest that it is due to prejudice against anything  spiritual or religious.

Why not accept and allow that there is a choice of MANY healthy lifestyles, and that going to church and having a positive faith both create considerable benefits?

I would suggest its because you don't want to be seen agreeing with me on anything :) .  

Logically, considering the evidences, it would appear that  it is you who is struggling with cognitive coherence,  by dismissing the results of lifestyle choices you do not like. 

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Mr Walker
7 hours ago, XenoFish said:

This is my thread going to absolute hell. Good job folks, thanks.<_<

I find it exploring the Op in many ways.  Perhaps not ways you had expected, but still very interesting.

  The debate  illustrates that, when one spiritual void is created by the removal of a belief,   another belief,  value, or world view,  is evolved to replace it. 

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Sherapy
48 minutes ago, Mr Walker said:

This is you attributing your own understandings  to another :) 

All the things you mentions are healthy, but WHY do you consider them   BETTER than faith/belief /church attendance, when all have the same ,or similar, clinical results ?

Studies have shown that a positive faith can reduce blood pressure as much as blood pressure medicines,  for example  And is far cheaper :) 

I would suggest that it is due to prejudice against anything  spiritual or religious.

Why not accept and allow that there is a choice of MANY healthy lifestyles, and that going to church and having a positive faith both create considerable benefits?

I would suggest its because you don't want to be seen agreeing with me on anything :) .  

Logically, considering the evidences, it would appear that  it is you who is struggling with cognitive coherence,  by dismissing the results of lifestyle choices you do not like. 

Nota bene, MW I think you sped read past the part where I included meditation/prayer. I personally meditate and find it a wonderful aspect of self care, but it isn’t a one stop shop, but part of my healthy living plan. 
 

I am an advocate for finding a path that meets ones spiritual needs. 

 

My ex husband who is 6 feet under believed exactly like you and had the same issues genetic heart problems which he knew about since his 30s, he never followed his doctor’s advice, stopped his blood pressure medications too it wasn’t long before he had a debilitating stroke became blind in one eye and lost the use of his hand yet, continued smoking, refused to exercise, ate horrible he was obese, slept very little all the things his doctor told him to correct if he wanted to live longer. his doctor told him that his behaviors could counter act his genes, he didn’t have to be a statistic, in fact, my ex felt god would save him. Surprise, surprise he left behind sons who miss him. His brother is going the same path and last I heard he is not doing well, he is in his 50s. 
 

All the best on your path.

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Mr Walker
48 minutes ago, Sherapy said:

Nota bene, MW I think you sped read past the part where I included meditation/prayer. I personally meditate and find it a wonderful aspect of self care, but it isn’t a one stop shop, but part of my healthy living plan. 
 

I am an advocate for finding a path that meets ones spiritual needs. 

 

My ex husband who is 6 feet under believed exactly like you and had the same issues genetic heart problems which he knew about since his 30s, he never followed his doctor’s advice, stopped his blood pressure medications too it wasn’t long before he had a debilitating stroke became blind in one eye and lost the use of his hand yet, continued smoking, refused to exercise, ate horrible he was obese, slept very little all the things his doctor told him to correct if he wanted to live longer. his doctor told him that his behaviors could counter act his genes, he didn’t have to be a statistic, in fact, my ex felt god would save him. Surprise, surprise he left behind sons who miss him. His brother is going the same path and last I heard he is not doing well, he is in his 50s. 
 

All the best on your path.

No I noticed that but then you used  BETTER So how can meditation/prayer be better than faith/belief  or church attendance :) 

Your point doesn't make sense.

It is like saying that faith/belief is better then faith/belief.

I suspect that you accept non-religious meditation as helpful but can't see that religious meditation has the same, or greater, effect 

And it has never been me arguing for anything less than a healthy living plan.

I just happen to advocate a positive spiritual faith as PART of such a plan. You dont

 And I am not like your ex husband 

I always follow my doctors advice, and get regular and complete checkups.  I have a comprehensive medical plan to manage my health, which is regularly monitored and adjusted as needed.  I dont smoke or drink or eat much meat and i walk cycle and garden (having lived a very active life until my mid  sixties)    I don't get stressed or anxious and i dont get depressed 

God saves me from major catastrophes, but I am responsible for my general health and wellbeing  (last specialist check up gave me a perfect bill of health including my cardiovascular system)  

 

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psyche101
18 minutes ago, Mr Walker said:

No I noticed that but then you used  BETTER So how can meditation/prayer be better than faith/belief  or church attendance :) 

Your point doesn't make sense.

It is like saying that faith/belief is better then faith/belief.

I suspect that you accept non-religious meditation as helpful but can't see that religious meditation has the same, or greater, effect 

And it has never been me arguing for anything less than a healthy living plan.

I just happen to advocate a positive spiritual faith as PART of such a plan. You dont

 And I am not like your ex husband 

I always follow my doctors advice, and get regular and complete checkups.  I have a comprehensive medical plan to manage my health, which is regularly monitored and adjusted as needed.  I dont smoke or drink or eat much meat and i walk cycle and garden (having lived a very active life until my mid  sixties)    I don't get stressed or anxious and i dont get depressed 

God saves me from major catastrophes, but I am responsible for my general health and wellbeing  (last specialist check up gave me a perfect bill of health including my cardiovascular system)  

 

It's better because it deals with the real world and doesn't have one literally on one's knees to an imaginary deity. 

Self respect is worth more to some

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Hammerclaw
3 hours ago, GoldenWolf said:

So you embrace the greatest loss of all?

No, I embrace completion--rather than flee from it. To conquer death, you only have to die.

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Mr Walker
2 hours ago, psyche101 said:

It's better because it deals with the real world and doesn't have one literally on one's knees to an imaginary deity. 

Self respect is worth more to some

No That is  a subjective opinion which cannot be evidenced.

The benefits of faith belief and religion, on the other hand,  can be (and ARE)  evidenced 

Your self respect is gained by you living to a world view which you have chosen and constructed for yourself, not a proven physical reality.

It is like maintaining self respect by living what you consider an honorable life   but where the concept of honour is your own construct and ideal not a reality ) 

Ie you couldn't respect yourself if you believed, because you have constructed a belief that religious  belief /faith is false and unnecessary, even harmful.

Most people have no problem at all reconciling self esteem with their spiritual beliefs (unless, perhaps, those beliefs result in harm rather than good) 

 Ps  dont be mistaken. i support your right to choose.  I even support your individual choice as being right, empowering and liberating  for you    (as long as it is) 

I understand how and why you constructed such a powerful pov.

What i don't support is your belief that this would work or be good for most humans.

Most require something more, or at least something different  

Edited by Mr Walker
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Sherapy
13 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

No I noticed that but then you used  BETTER So how can meditation/prayer be better than faith/belief  or church attendance :) 

Your point doesn't make sense.

It is like saying that faith/belief is better then faith/belief.

I suspect that you accept non-religious meditation as helpful but can't see that religious meditation has the same, or greater, effect 

And it has never been me arguing for anything less than a healthy living plan.

I just happen to advocate a positive spiritual faith as PART of such a plan. You dont

 And I am not like your ex husband 

I always follow my doctors advice, and get regular and complete checkups.  I have a comprehensive medical plan to manage my health, which is regularly monitored and adjusted as needed.  I dont smoke or drink or eat much meat and i walk cycle and garden (having lived a very active life until my mid  sixties)    I don't get stressed or anxious and i dont get depressed 

God saves me from major catastrophes, but I am responsible for my general health and wellbeing  (last specialist check up gave me a perfect bill of health including my cardiovascular system)  

 

Ignatius contemplation Is the equivalent of meditation. “Better” in the sense that it addresses the whole human being. 

According to your own posts in your own words you have not always followed medical advice, and you don’t go to church or believe in faith.  

Everyone has some kind of coping system some are healthier than others for ex: the way you cope with your stress is to deny you have it.  

:P

My two cents would be stick with your doctors advice. All the best.
 


 

 

Edited by Sherapy
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XenoFish

Why hasn't this been locked yet? I'm getting pretty sick of this nonsense. In fact I have been tired of it for a very long time. But here we are 80 freaking pages into Walkers thread. Screw the topic it doesn't exist. No, no, no not at all. Just let Walker highjack it. Like he does every time. And those who complain about him, they are always there to fuel a threads destruction. Good job folks. It would be a miracle of this crowd could actually stick to the topic of a thread. But I'm asking too much, way too much. 

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Mr Walker
6 hours ago, Sherapy said:

Ignatius contemplation Is the equivalent of meditation. “Better” in the sense that it addresses the whole human being. 

According to your own posts in your own words you have not always followed medical advice, and you don’t go to church or believe in faith.  

Everyone has some kind of coping system some are healthier than others for ex: the way you cope with your stress is to deny you have it.  

:P

My two cents would be stick with your doctors advice. All the best.
 


 

 

Um no In general I ALWAYS follow doctor's advice and that of any professional UNLESS there are compelling resonsnotodoso 

I don't go to church

I don't do faith, BUT i know from  science the powerful effect of faith.

I dont need it, given direct contact with a powerful protective entity.

   Any spiritual  effect affects the whole human body, because our physiological response is tied to our psychological one 

Umm whose advice do you THINK I am listening to apart from my doctors.

My doctors agree with the science about the protective power of faith, and all of them (3  men and a woman)  are practising believers from  different faiths. 

I  would be happy being treated by an atheist professional, but there just aren't any around here. 

I dont deny stress. My medical tests have never found any indication of it  :)

Ive had control of my physiological responses for over 40 years.

 I just choose not to experience the physiological and psychological symptoms of stress (they are only constructs of the mind after all, and can be eliminated by learning certain physiological and psychological techniques)  Plus I am lucky with both my genes and my upbringing.My parents never demonstrated stress, anger, anxiety,etc.  and so i never really learned that those responses were appropriate.  Indeed my parents taught me the first, and most basic, techniques( both physical and cognitive)   to eliminate stress, anxiety etc.

Edited by Mr Walker
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Mr Walker
3 hours ago, XenoFish said:

Why hasn't this been locked yet? I'm getting pretty sick of this nonsense. In fact I have been tired of it for a very long time. But here we are 80 freaking pages into Walkers thread. Screw the topic it doesn't exist. No, no, no not at all. Just let Walker highjack it. Like he does every time. And those who complain about him, they are always there to fuel a threads destruction. Good job folks. It would be a miracle of this crowd could actually stick to the topic of a thread. But I'm asking too much, way too much. 

The thread was about  a spiritual  void and the possible consequences of creating one in another person.

Tha t also then implies why spirituality is significant/important to human beings.  

My responses have either been directly to this, or responses to other ideas and challenges eg a spiritual void has been proven by science to be harmful to your health  compared with a positive spiritual belief 

You can argue the science, but its a relevant argument 

Jus t 'cause you  dont like the way a conversation goes is not a valid reason to lock a thread. That becomes censorship. 

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Liquid Gardens
3 hours ago, XenoFish said:

It would be a miracle of this crowd could actually stick to the topic of a thread. But I'm asking too much, way too much. 

Dude, after almost three months you expect a thread here to be in topic?  Yes, you are asking way too much.  You should pat yourself on the back for creating a thread that's gone this long. I understand your OP was more specific, but I mean the subtitle you chose was 'Atheists vs Believers' and you're surprised it's turned into a free for all?  (which is not to say that if you hadn't it would have turned out any differently, granted...)

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Sherapy
48 minutes ago, Mr Walker said:

The thread was about  a spiritual  void and the possible consequences of creating one in another person.

Tha t also then implies why spirituality is significant/important to human beings.  

My responses have either been directly to this, or responses to other ideas and challenges eg a spiritual void has been proven by science to be harmful to your health  compared with a positive spiritual belief 

You can argue the science, but its a relevant argument 

Jus t 'cause you  dont like the way a conversation goes is not a valid reason to lock a thread. That becomes censorship. 

X is correct, we do indulge your nonsense far to much, I am not above reproach or good manners and neither are you. 
 

Xeno, my apologies. I probably will frock up in the future, but I do appreciate the feedback. 
 

editted to say I sinned already .:blush:

Edited by Sherapy
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