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Antioch

Illyran literature suggestions

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Antioch

Hi,

I want to learn more about Illyrian history. Do you have suggestions for which books I can read to learn more about this subject?

Thanks 

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Hanslune
1 hour ago, Antioch said:

Hi,

I want to learn more about Illyrian history. Do you have suggestions for which books I can read to learn more about this subject?

Thanks 

https://books.google.com/books?id=_c4GAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA1#v=onepage&q&f=false, printed in 1746 but in Latin

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Jarocal
1 hour ago, Antioch said:

I can't read that language. :/

Get the ebook and use Google translate?

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jaylemurph
6 hours ago, Antioch said:

Hi,

I want to learn more about Illyrian history. Do you have suggestions for which books I can read to learn more about this subject?

Thanks 

What specific kind if info are you looking for? There’s not a ton of historical documentation left for the pre-Roman Illyrians. Or are you looking for info on later peoples who lived in the area like the Dacians, Thracians, and Goths? Not that there’s much further on the first two...

—Jaylemurph 

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Antioch
29 minutes ago, jaylemurph said:

What specific kind if info are you looking for? There’s not a ton of historical documentation left for the pre-Roman Illyrians. Or are you looking for info on later peoples who lived in the area like the Dacians, Thracians, and Goths? Not that there’s much further on the first two...

—Jaylemurph 

Firstly, books/articles of historians/archaeologists that have made research about the illyrans (like John Wilkes). Secondly, roman/greek writers that have written about the illyrans in the past. 

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Essan
1 hour ago, Antioch said:

Thanks, already going to buy it! 

I haven't read it myself.  But it seems a good starting point :)  

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Antioch
10 minutes ago, Essan said:

I haven't read it myself.  But it seems a good starting point :)  

Yes, absolutely! 

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jaylemurph

Wilkes’ book is okay, but as I said, the documentary, historical evidence is thin on the ground. There’s practically no record of their language or culture, and what we do have is extremely biased reports filtered through Greco-Roman eyes. 
 

Wilkes’ discussion, up until the christian era, is consequently weak. Unless you’re a professional historian, the relevant info may not even be of use or interest. 

You’d probably be better of studying the Indo-Europeans for background and then the Goths for comparison (Wolfram’s The History of the Goths), since there’s far more data available for them. But you need to understand there simply isn’t that much to find; anyone telling you different is misleading you. 

—Jaylemurph 

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Antioch
10 minutes ago, jaylemurph said:

Wilkes’ book is okay, but as I said, the documentary, historical evidence is thin on the ground. There’s practically no record of their language or culture, and what we do have is extremely biased reports filtered through Greco-Roman eyes. 
 

Wilkes’ discussion, up until the christian era, is consequently weak. Unless you’re a professional historian, the relevant info may not even be of use or interest. 

You’d probably be better of studying the Indo-Europeans for background and then the Goths for comparison (Wolfram’s The History of the Goths), since there’s far more data available for them. But you need to understand there simply isn’t that much to find; anyone telling you different is misleading you. 

—Jaylemurph 

Yes, I have a bachelor's degree in history. I want to write a master's theis on the illyrans. I am well aware that there is no record of their language and that the reports by greeks/romans are biased (the reason why can be a good discussion topic though). However, I believe that I can do it. This subject needs more attention. I already have some books in Croatian/Bosnian/Serbian that I will read, but I also want more suggestions. Therefore I am reaching out to everyone I can. :)

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Windowpane
1 hour ago, Antioch said:

...

Secondly, roman/greek writers that have written about the illyrans in the past. 

 

Well, there's Appian ...  And other reference material mentioned in the Wiki on Illyricum.

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Piney
4 hours ago, Antioch said:

Yes, I have a bachelor's degree in history. I want to write a master's theis on the illyrans. I am well aware that there is no record of their language and that the reports by greeks/romans are biased (the reason why can be a good discussion topic though). However, I believe that I can do it. This subject needs more attention. I already have some books in Croatian/Bosnian/Serbian that I will read, but I also want more suggestions. Therefore I am reaching out to everyone I can. :)

I studied the Serbian/Bosnian/ Croats in my Indo-Iranian and Steppe studies. Fascinating history tied into Illyrian history but distorted with Nationalism. 

The same goes with the Illyrians and all the Albanian nationalism. 

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Antioch
3 hours ago, Piney said:

I studied the Serbian/Bosnian/ Croats in my Indo-Iranian and Steppe studies. Fascinating history tied into Illyrian history but distorted with Nationalism. 

The same goes with the Illyrians and all the Albanian nationalism. 

Cool! Nationalism is a big problem for Serbian/Albanian historians when writing about the illyrans. They have their own versions and often lack objectivity. I want to get to the root of it and expose the nationalistic rhetoric in both. 

6 hours ago, Windowpane said:

 

Well, there's Appian ...  And other reference material mentioned in the Wiki on Illyricum.

Great, thank you! 

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Captain Risky
17 hours ago, Antioch said:

Hi,

I want to learn more about Illyrian history. Do you have suggestions for which books I can read to learn more about this subject?

Thanks 

Using google search type in Illyrian history. You're welcome. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illyrians

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Antioch
21 minutes ago, Captain Risky said:

Using google search type in Illyrian history. You're welcome. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illyrians

Already done that, but not all literature is on the Wikipedia page. 

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Captain Risky
Just now, Antioch said:

Already done that, but not all literature is on the Wikipedia page. 

Try Byzantine history and link with Illyrian. A lot of the Byzantine emperors hailed from that area and even linked themselves with the name 'Illyrian'.I think like Piney says the term Illyrian has been hijacked by nationalists all over the Balkans. Historical theft and appropriation seems to be rampant in that part of the world. In this case i think Illyrian is more of a geographic qualification than an actual historical civilisation. It was a backwater of sorts and thats why there's not much on it. 

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Antioch
Posted (edited)
47 minutes ago, Captain Risky said:

Try Byzantine history and link with Illyrian. A lot of the Byzantine emperors hailed from that area and even linked themselves with the name 'Illyrian'.I think like Piney says the term Illyrian has been hijacked by nationalists all over the Balkans. Historical theft and appropriation seems to be rampant in that part of the world. In this case i think Illyrian is more of a geographic qualification than an actual historical civilisation. It was a backwater of sorts and thats why there's not much on it. 

I think the illyran groups were more complex than some historians/archaeologists have expressed (for multiple reasons, which is not relevant for my question). Additionally, there is more to be discovered when it comes to the illyrans. Unfortunately - when it comes to Bosnia - there is not a lof of money for archaeological research. And the evidence we have, is often hijacked by nationalistic historians and/or destroyed. In the last case Bosnian Stecci is a good example; these monuments are getting destroyed (or even sold) all around Bosnia. https://radiosarajevo.ba/metromahala/teme/nepovratno-izgubljeno-nepoznati-kopac-pijeska-unistio-nekropolu-stecaka-u-bih/377481

 

Edited by Antioch
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Captain Risky
Just now, Antioch said:

I think the illyran groups were more complex than some historians/archaeologists have expressed (for multiple reasons, which is not relevant for my question). Additionally, there is more to be discovered when it comes to the illyrans. Unfortunately - when it comes to Bosnia - there is not a lof of money for arcaheological research. And the evidence we have, is often hijacked by nationalistic historians and/or destroyed. In the last case Bosnian Stecci is a good example; these monuments are getting destroyed all around Bosnia. 

To me at least i think its important to define a time frame, independent language and also cities to accurately say that Illyria was a country. I have a link that should help you in at least steer you in the right direction to find more information. But it would seem they would have been greatly influenced by the Greeks, Roman and Byzantines as their cultures and societies were more advanced than anything in the region. In effect i would say that they were feeding at the edges and absorbed by the empires around them. If you find something interesting be sure to post.

 https://www.cairn.info/revue-dialogues-d-histoire-ancienne-2014-2-page-45.htm#

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Windowpane
4 minutes ago, Antioch said:

...   Unfortunately - when it comes to Bosnia - there is not a lof of money for arcaheological research. And the evidence we have, is often hijacked by nationalistic historians and/or destroyed. In the last case Bosnian Stecci is a good example; these monuments are getting destroyed all around Bosnia. 

 

If you've not already come across it, there is some discussion of stecci, with accompanying references, here and here.

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Antioch
Posted (edited)
18 minutes ago, Captain Risky said:

To me at least i think its important to define a time frame, independent language and also cities to accurately say that Illyria was a country. I have a link that should help you in at least steer you in the right direction to find more information. But it would seem they would have been greatly influenced by the Greeks, Roman and Byzantines as their cultures and societies were more advanced than anything in the region. In effect i would say that they were feeding at the edges and absorbed by the empires around them. If you find something interesting be sure to post.

 https://www.cairn.info/revue-dialogues-d-histoire-ancienne-2014-2-page-45.htm#

I would not say that Illyria was a ''country.'' That is a wrong term to use, in my opinion. ''Illyrans'' is just a term used for multiple groups of illyrans - some were perhaps city-states, others were just ordinary tribes (just as in Greece). However, they could have formed their own associations to defend against enemies. I would rather say that the illyrans were important traders, exporting resources to Romans and Greeks. This is turn could have made them richer and more complex. Perhaps the greeks and romans were inspired by the illyrans too and not only the other way around? ;) 

17 minutes ago, Windowpane said:

 

If you've not already come across it, there is some discussion of stecci, with accompanying references, here and here.

Yes, this is a big problem! Really sad. 

Edited by Antioch
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Piney
6 hours ago, Captain Risky said:

Historical theft and appropriation seems to be rampant in that part of the world. In this case i think Illyrian is more of a geographic qualification than an actual historical civilisation. It was a backwater of sorts and thats why there's not much on it. 

I do think they spoke a dialect of Paleo-Balkan related to Thracian-Dacian that leaned towards the Indo-Iranian end of things and I'm under the opinion that the descendants of the Albanoi are the Albanian and the Iapydes contributed to the Serbo-Croatians but your right, they were basically back creek and left no written records. 

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jaylemurph

OP, can you read Old Church Slavonic? I know a few untranslated texts in that language (my colleague Marija studies medieval Balkan history and once passed along a bibliography of its historic texts).

—Jaylemurph 

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jaylemurph
8 hours ago, Piney said:

I do think they spoke a dialect of Paleo-Balkan related to Thracian-Dacian that leaned towards the Indo-Iranian end of things and I'm under the opinion that the descendants of the Albanoi are the Albanian and the Iapydes contributed to the Serbo-Croatians but your right, they were basically back creek and left no written records. 

There was def. a specific pre-Roman Illyrian culture, but the people living in the area in Late Antiquity and the Early Modern Ages were really, really bad with names and discerning different cultures. 

(We know now, for instance, that groups like the Goths and the Huns were composed of multiple ethnic and cultural groups and languages, rather than monolithic invading tribes.)

—Jaylemurph 

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