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Manwon Lender

Taliban paid to kill Coalition Soldiers

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Tatetopa
18 minutes ago, and then said:

Is it your belief that the military leadership has somehow changed under Trump so that all defensive measures are NOT being employed?  Why would you assume that our troops in that sandbox are being left defenseless?  The day to day doctrine and mission SOP doesn't fundamentally change due to who is in the Oval Office.  Believe as you will but IMO, this is just another tempest in a teapot like those before it and those that will follow it.

Every service member in Afghanistan should come home and until they do, their chain of command is duty bound to protect them as best they can while completing their mission.  I trust our military leaders to make their best efforts.

No andthen, I do not believe military leadership has changed directives or gotten careless under President Trump.

Just as the military can offer protection to civilian Americans in the foreign service stationed in hazardous postings, so too can the civilian segment of the government offer an umbrella to troops in hazardous postings. 

We don't need to start a nuclear war or even intercept a Russian jet flying into our air space and shoot it down.  As all sides have always done, we escort the offending craft back out of our airspace.

But diplomacy offers many avenues.  For example, it would be a shame if any Russian oil technicians came to harm in Venezuela.  Rebels are still around and we may have some pull with them.  We could offer to use our influence to keep them safe.  We could be regretful that we were not able to act quickly enough to save the first ten that the rebels executed.  

There are all kind of ways in this world we can shield troops as we withdraw them.  The generals can handle the threats on the ground.  The State Department can just remind significant  others to let it be.

It is not required that President Trump be a war-monger. to accomplish those things.

 

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Peter B
On 6/28/2020 at 12:25 PM, third_eye said:

Just curious, aren't coalition soldiers paid to kill Taliban "soldiers" too? 

~

There's a difference between being paid a regular salary regardless of what you do, and being paid a bounty for each person you kill.

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Manwon Lender
1 hour ago, and then said:

Is it your belief that the military leadership has somehow changed under Trump so that all defensive measures are NOT being employed?  Why would you assume that our troops in that sandbox are being left defenseless?  The day to day doctrine and mission SOP doesn't fundamentally change due to who is in the Oval Office.  Believe as you will but IMO, this is just another tempest in a teapot like those before it and those that will follow it.

Every service member in Afghanistan should come home and until they do, their chain of command is duty bound to protect them as best they can while completing their mission.  I trust our military leaders to make their best efforts.

I also trust our Military Leadership, but that isn't the point of this thread. The point is why even if President Trump didn't know, now that he does why isn't he making any statements concerning the issue now. We have to realize this President acts very strangely he hasn't denied that there were bounties placed on US Soldiers by Russia, so far all he has said is myself and the Vice President were not informed about this situation. Well now they are informed, instead of saying that this was terrible and Russia must answer for this all we get is Crickets, and that is not expectable, not expectable at all. This whole thing could go away if he simple said, somehow a mistake happened and I wasn't briefed on this, but now that I know about this, we cant let Putin get away with it.

Now why do you think he hasn't done this? 

Peace

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Peter B
15 hours ago, Jon the frog said:

Well... the US done the same in the eighties against the Russian... disturbing but these kind of trades are going on for a long long time...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Cyclone

I disagree about it being the same thing. My understanding is that American aid to the Mujahideen was in the form of military and non-military supplies.

I doubt that Americans were paying bounties for Russians deaths in Afghanistan to the Mujahideen (though I'm happy to be proven wrong). The two main reasons which come to mind are that (a) it would have been a tricky program to administer, and much simpler to just hand over large amounts of supplies no strings attached, and (b) it's not as though the Mujahideen needed any motivation to kill the invading Russians.

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Peter B
3 hours ago, spartan max2 said:

What gets me is how most people have probably paid zero attention to our presence in the middle east until this moment.

And alot of people want us not over there at all.

So if people are now all of a sudden being outraged by this it feels sort of hollow.

??

Which people? Americans?

How do you come to think this? Are you suggesting that people have somehow forgotten about the American invasions of Afghanistan after 9/11 and Iraq after Weapons-Of-Mass-Destruction?

Sorry, what am I missing?

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Manwon Lender
8 minutes ago, Peter B said:

I disagree about it being the same thing. My understanding is that American aid to the Mujahideen was in the form of military and non-military supplies.

I doubt that Americans were paying bounties for Russians deaths in Afghanistan to the Mujahideen (though I'm happy to be proven wrong). The two main reasons which come to mind are that (a) it would have been a tricky program to administer, and much simpler to just hand over large amounts of supplies no strings attached, and (b) it's not as though the Mujahideen needed any motivation to kill the invading Russians.

You are incorrect America not only supplied the Mujahideen with Rifles, ammunition and many other types of weapons, they also supplied them with shoulder fired Stinger anti-aircraft missiles. Those missiles are what made the Russian lose the War and leave Afghanistan, once the Mujahideen received those missiles the Russians could no longer fly any Aircraft in Afghanistan so they had no choice but to leave.
Peace

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Peter B
3 minutes ago, Manwon Lender said:

You are incorrect America not only supplied the Mujahideen with Rifles, ammunition and many other types of weapons, they also supplied them with shoulder fired Stinger anti-aircraft missiles. Those missiles are what made the Russian lose the War and leave Afghanistan, once the Mujahideen received those missiles the Russians could no longer fly any Aircraft in Afghanistan so they had no choice but to leave.
Peace

Sorry I don't understand. Where am I incorrect?

Jon the Frog compared the Taliban bounties with American aid to the Mujahideen. I disagree these are comparable - American military aid was simply that, and AFAIK the Americans paid no bounties to the Mujahideen for killing Russians. As far as I'm concerned there's a big difference between providing military assistance and paying a bounty to someone for killing a specific target.

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third_eye
50 minutes ago, Peter B said:

There's a difference between being paid a regular salary regardless of what you do, and being paid a bounty for each person you kill.

Or every statue you put up or tear down... 

~

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and then
3 hours ago, Tatetopa said:

These days though, it seem conservatives have little respect for the military.  Just the ones who are not captured, wounded, or killed in the line of duty.  

Your evidence for this conclusion?  I mean, surely you have some kind of corroboration for such an outrageous slander?  If that is a snarky reference to Trump's comments about McCain, you're either ignorant of the kind of military man he was or you're just taking a political shot.  He got through the Naval Academy (barely) on the legacy of having an Admiral for a father.  His performance in Vietnam was not exceptionally brave.  It was his role - and suffering - as a POW that gave him the respect and the political benefits.  He was just another DC swamp dweller and even as he lay dying, he was still spitting hate and trying to remove a duly elected president that insulted him.  That is the truth about him and no one should feel ashamed to tell it.

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and then
3 hours ago, Tatetopa said:

It is not required that President Trump be a war-monger. to accomplish those things.

And your assumption that he has done nothing along those lines is based on what, exactly?  If there is evidence out there that he is specifically derelict in that duty, I'd be pleased to evaluate it.

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and then

https://www.foxnews.com/politics/trump-says-intel-doesnt-back-up-report-on-russian-bounties-against-us-troops

So we have one more in a very long list of stories (accusations) from "unnamed sources" and no evidence can be presented that would convince those who hate BOM, so why, exactly, is this story worth anything?  Because TRUMP!  The lamest part of the whole thing is that if it were 100% accurate, it would deserve a response of "DUH"!  I bet this turns into saga episode 426, how Trump is destroying America.  The result?  Let's see... hmm... his support grows and the hate for him does as well.  NEXT?

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Manwon Lender
2 hours ago, and then said:

Your evidence for this conclusion?  I mean, surely you have some kind of corroboration for such an outrageous slander?  If that is a snarky reference to Trump's comments about McCain, you're either ignorant of the kind of military man he was or you're just taking a political shot.  He got through the Naval Academy (barely) on the legacy of having an Admiral for a father.  His performance in Vietnam was not exceptionally brave.  It was his role - and suffering - as a POW that gave him the respect and the political benefits.  He was just another DC swamp dweller and even as he lay dying, he was still spitting hate and trying to remove a duly elected president that insulted him.  That is the truth about him and no one should feel ashamed to tell it.

Man you are certainly a lost cause, I have no idea how you can carry so much hate around. At least McCain fought for his country he certainly didn't have to go to Vietnam, but he did and he paid one hell of price for it as prisoner of war. So you choose to criticize the man, just like your Hero did, that same Hero who dodged the draft," President Trump" what a joke. You know I have given this some thought, and I think it is much better be a swamp dweller than a bunker boy. Not to mention the fact that our President has allowed Russia to get away with putting bounties on the heads of US Soldiers, now that is far beyond anything you claim McCain has done, in fact what President Trump has allowed to happen is Treason and the last Government official that committed a similar act was Benedict Arnold so it's obvious what Trumps legacy will be. 

Peace

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Manwon Lender
2 hours ago, and then said:

https://www.foxnews.com/politics/trump-says-intel-doesnt-back-up-report-on-russian-bounties-against-us-troops

So we have one more in a very long list of stories (accusations) from "unnamed sources" and no evidence can be presented that would convince those who hate BOM, so why, exactly, is this story worth anything?  Because TRUMP!  The lamest part of the whole thing is that if it were 100% accurate, it would deserve a response of "DUH"!  I bet this turns into saga episode 426, how Trump is destroying America.  The result?  Let's see... hmm... his support grows and the hate for him does as well.  NEXT?

I don't know how some one who claims to be Patriot can defend some one who would allow a foreign power to put Bounties on US Soldiers, dude your unbelievable. I can see why you never served your country, it's obvious that you are missing the most important attribute necessary to serve, man!!!!!!!!:td:

Peace 

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Manwon Lender
8 hours ago, spartan max2 said:

What gets me is how most people have probably paid zero attention to our presence in the middle east until this moment.

And alot of people want us not over there at all.

So if people are now all of a sudden being outraged by this it feels sort of hollow.

Please speak for yourself, few Americans feel like you do about this, it is very easy to make comments like that from a warm chair, performing your duties as a key board warrior. In my experience people who make comments like this have never served their country, and won't if they could, but they sure take advantage of all the gifts others fight for.:( It never fails that they attempt to place others in the same position of fear they have lived their entire lives in, what a joke!!!!:td:

Peace

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Manwon Lender
5 hours ago, Peter B said:

Sorry I don't understand. Where am I incorrect?

Jon the Frog compared the Taliban bounties with American aid to the Mujahideen. I disagree these are comparable - American military aid was simply that, and AFAIK the Americans paid no bounties to the Mujahideen for killing Russians. As far as I'm concerned there's a big difference between providing military assistance and paying a bounty to someone for killing a specific target.

No American aid was weapons here is a link for you to read, and then you will understand, I did not mean to give you a hard time but you were completely wrong about the aid that was supplied by America.

Link:  https://courses.lumenlearning.com/suny-hccc-worldhistory2/chapter/the-united-states-and-the-mujahideen/

Peace

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Jon the frog
7 hours ago, Peter B said:

Sorry I don't understand. Where am I incorrect?

Jon the Frog compared the Taliban bounties with American aid to the Mujahideen. I disagree these are comparable - American military aid was simply that, and AFAIK the Americans paid no bounties to the Mujahideen for killing Russians. As far as I'm concerned there's a big difference between providing military assistance and paying a bounty to someone for killing a specific target.

Well, paid by weapon or paid by money to buy weapon to kill troop... i don't know what's so different...

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RAyMO
8 hours ago, Peter B said:

Sorry I don't understand. Where am I incorrect?

Jon the Frog compared the Taliban bounties with American aid to the Mujahideen. I disagree these are comparable - American military aid was simply that, and AFAIK the Americans paid no bounties to the Mujahideen for killing Russians. As far as I'm concerned there's a big difference between providing military assistance and paying a bounty to someone for killing a specific target.

Not that big a difference  - in one you are providing an explicit incentive, in the other, a means and an implicit incentive.

but perhaps one is more bare faced than the other. 

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Tatetopa
8 hours ago, and then said:

And your assumption that he has done nothing along those lines is based on what, exactly?  If there is evidence out there that he is specifically derelict in that duty, I'd be pleased to evaluate it.

I have no evidence nor any proof of anything so egregious as dereliction of duty.   I didn't get it from any news outlet.

I got it from listening to the President.

The pattern has been that if anything remotely positive happens, the President has taken credit for it since day 1 of his administration.  It appears from pieces written before he became President that it has been the pattern of his  business life to  take credit for much and deny blame for anything that goes wrong.

He has also been noted by his own administration as not one well practiced at keeping secrets.

Unless they have a significant event in their lives that produces an epiphany, generally, people are  creatures of habit repeating successful and unsuccessful behaviors throughout their lives.  Successful outcomes produce a lot of reinforcement.

Thus I was led to believe if President Trump had done something  positive to counter Russian action, he would have said something about it. Also, if something negative had not occurred, he would not have denied so quickly.

It was a poker bet on my part.  Maybe a losing bet to be sure.

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Peter B

No evidence that it has happened, but the issue is still being investigated.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-07-08/us-general-not-convinced-russian-bounties-led-to-us-deaths/12433906

A top US general says he is not convinced any Russian bounties have resulted in the deaths of US troops in Afghanistan...

"I'm very familiar with this material and I'm a theatre commander and I've had an opportunity to look at it. I found it very worrisome," General McKenzie said.

"I just didn't find that there was a causative link there."

Pressed on whether he believed Russian payments led to US deaths, General McKenzie said: "No, I'm not convinced of that. I'm just not."

He added that battlefield intelligence was often inconclusive.

"But in this case, there just wasn't enough there," General McKenzie said.

"I sent the intelligence guys back to continue to dig on it. And I believe they're continuing to dig right now."

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and then
4 hours ago, Peter B said:

No evidence that it has happened, but the issue is still being investigated.

Sounds about right.  Waste of time to try to take the bit out of the mouths of those who keep posting anything and everything they can find relating to the BOM.  They've gone quite mental, IMO.  Sad, really.  

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Buzz_Light_Year
On 6/29/2020 at 6:25 AM, Manwon Lender said:

I don't know how some one who claims to be Patriot can defend some one who would allow a foreign power to put Bounties on US Soldiers, dude your unbelievable. I can see why you never served your country, it's obvious that you are missing the most important attribute necessary to serve, man!!!!!!!!:td:

Peace 

I don't know how some one who claims to be Patriot can parrot unsubstantiated claims against his CIC as facts. Furthermore you served but yet you were missing the most important attribute for a serviceman and that is honesty. Without honesty there can be no integrity.

I am firmly convinced that your shouldn't be throwing the patriot word around like it really means something to you.

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Manwon Lender
19 minutes ago, Buzz_Light_Year said:

I don't know how some one who claims to be Patriot can parrot unsubstantiated claims against his CIC as facts. Furthermore you served but yet you were missing the most important attribute for a serviceman and that is honesty. Without honesty there can be no integrity.

I am firmly convinced that your shouldn't be throwing the patriot word around like it really means something to you.

Well thanks Buzz, by your tone and your attitude I can tell you were a low ranking little Hero. As far as you comments go they are as disingenuous as you are, you talk a big game, but talk is very cheap and your support for Trump certainly isn't what our Military calls patriotism. Buzz, from what I have seen from your comments and posts, honesty is not a trait that you posses, you don't know anything about me, so you make up images in your little mind to compensate for something your are missing.  Up until now I have brushed off your attacks and comments, because you sound like a Private who got his butt chewed. When someone attacks Veterans, it is not the person who is being attacked that has their honesty and Patriotism questioned, it's person who is attacking especially on the internet. When you attack someone the way you have been attacking me, on an internet forum it paints you as keyboard warrior and a coward, because only a coward attacks what he will never be, and especially when they identity is unknown. So please sit back in lounge chair, pop another beer and watch another war movie, I am certain that will make you feel more important. :yes:

 

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Buzz_Light_Year
7 minutes ago, Manwon Lender said:

Well thanks Buzz, by your tone and your attitude I can tell you were a low ranking little Hero. As far as you comments go they are as disingenuous as you are, you talk a big game, but talk is very cheap and your support for Trump certainly isn't what our Military calls patriotism. Buzz, from what I have seen from your comments and posts, honesty is not a trait that you posses, you don't know anything about me, so you make up images in your little mind to compensate for something your are missing.  Up until now I have brushed off your attacks and comments, because you sound like a Private who got his butt chewed. When someone attacks Veterans, it is not the person who is being attacked that has their honesty and Patriotism questioned, it's person who is attacking especially on the internet. When you attack someone the way you have been attacking me, on an internet forum it paints you as keyboard warrior and a coward, because only a coward attacks what he will never be, and especially when they identity is unknown. So please sit back in lounge chair, pop another beer and watch another war movie, I am certain that will make you feel more important. :yes:

 

That's really rich coming from someone that attempts to belittle anyone who may disagree with them.

roflmao.

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Manwon Lender
1 hour ago, Buzz_Light_Year said:

That's really rich coming from someone that attempts to belittle anyone who may disagree with them.

roflmao.

You know what if you pulled you head out of your butt and looked around, it may become obvious that your statement isn't really correct. Yes I will attack, but only when I am attacked, and once that happens I will continue to go forward, if I am left alone all is good, if I am attacked again the battle is on. I get along with many more people here, than I have problems with, I react to in the manner I am treated by them, but I have no patients for fools, say what you mean or shut the F up. The individual I responded to, that you decided was unfair, deserves what he gets. He has a real bad habit of talking about Sedition if his candidate isn't elected, that is crime I will not stand for, so he is fair game. If you don't like it tough Chit. So please go away, and do whatever it is you do, I have no time for your dam foolishness and in reality it's also none of your freaken Business. 

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RoofGardener
On 6/29/2020 at 12:20 PM, Manwon Lender said:

Man you are certainly a lost cause, I have no idea how you can carry so much hate around. At least McCain fought for his country he certainly didn't have to go to Vietnam,......

Umm.. wasn't he drafted ? 

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