Now that we have hard evidence of UFO's

[ChrLzs]

16 hours ago, I'mConvinced said:

Done it many times already. The problem as described is that you cannot see any heat spikes in the gimbal video.

OK, let's go.  Please define precisely what you mean by 'heat spikes'.  In particular, before we even get started, you need to address a few very obvious basic presumptions in your claim.. namely:

- in which video and at what point of time will we see the lack of spikes most clearly? ie CITE the video and timing, just so there is no confusion
- how have you determined that the 'spikes' are caused by heat, and are not one of several optic/sensor effects? (you (or Falch) should be able to refer to a Raytheon expert opinion on that, of course.. did Falch even ask Raytheon?)
and ....

Quote

Dave Falch was very clear, it does not look like afterburners

Did I miss something - who said they were (or were not) using afterburners and exactly HOW does that "not look like it".  You can't make a vague claim like that and not be specific.

Quote

it doesn't spike like every other engine he has ever seen

So, he is familiar with this Raytheon equipment setup (hint - NO) and he must be able to cite at least two examples - I haven't seen such a citation - can you point us to it?

 

Quote

and the object looks nothing like a plane to him.

It's not an optical-light system for chrissake, and the heat sources will 'bloom' outwards (and yes, they *may* 'spike') in a variety of ways that depend on the angle of the craft, the amount of overexposure, the design of the lens system, whether it was accurately focused, the aperture (shape and setting) the lens was set at, the way the sensor data responds to the heat and also any post-processing, and then, on the aircraft being imaged even a slightly dented exhaust or an asymmetry in engine output will change the shape of the 'blooms' and could cause spikes or odd shapes.  This is a complex area, frankly you are so out of your depth it isn't funny, and if you are NOT familiar with that particular setup and configuration, wild-assed guesses and woolly comments about how it doesn't look like a plane, are absolutely USELESS.  If you had ever been involved in analysing this sort of imagery, you would know that.  Falch must know it - if he doesn't, then he's a pretender and his opinion is worse than worthless.  And if he knows it, then WHY hasn't he been specific, WHY hasn't he cited examples of all these other aircraft he has seen that are 'different.

Before I can go into MUCH more detail on this, Falch or you needs to stop handwaving and put up or shut up.  At the very least, post two cites of aircraft with the heat spikes, and we'll move on.

And I'd like to ask a very loaded question - be careful how you answer....  If we can show you footage of KNOWN aircraft without heat spikes, would you concede that you / Falch are dead wrong?

 

Gish Gallop warning...  The following is an attempt to change the subject and to try to distract and escape from properly analysing the major point being debated..   

Quote

*Edit* While you're at it please explain how Mick West failed to spot the leftwards motion in the FLIR1 video.

Not on your bloody life - not until you finish what you started and create something worth debating.  Answer the questions above and stop trying to change the subject, you Gish Galloper.

Edited August 2, 2020 by ChrLzs

[ChrLzs]

BTW, I'm a bit confused, or maybe IC is...  The gimbal video does have some 'spikes'.

Oh well, I'm sure IC will clarify.

In the meantime, anyone new to this and with a bit of curiosity, may wish to spend some time here, where you will get to meet Mick West - it's fairly long (25 minutes), but the subject at hand is covered quite early, so take a look at the first 10 mins or so, at least:

Like I said, I trust IC will be back to rebut the points that I made above, and also perhaps address Mick West's excellent coverage, which includes some demonstrations and some footage of other aircraft in similar systems, to prove his points.

[Golden Duck]

12 hours ago, preacherman76 said:

Every post you made on this page is nothing but insults. Literally every one. I suspect it’s been that way the last couple pages at least. 

Literally every one? Except the one you quoted, at least.

When I access this site, on PC or Android, I csn see a flag that i can ckick to repory objectionable posts.  Are you using Apple?

Edited August 2, 2020 by Golden Duck

[+joc]

On 7/2/2020 at 1:10 PM, I'mConvinced said:

Can you explain why Commander David Fravor is not a reliable source? 

It doesn't matter whether he is 'reliable' or not.  Your entire thread is based on a false premise....Hard Evidence.   Videos are not Hard Evidence.  They can never be Hard Evidence.  

Hard Evidence would be...a foregin space craft in our possesion that we could analyze.  An extraterrestrial creature in our possession that we could analyze.  Hard Evidence is Physical Evidence.

[stereologist]

I knew that our memories are malleable, malleable to the point that false memories can be created. A recent correction to my understanding is that we remember our last remembering of an event and not the original memory.

So is a person remembers something for the first time, then their memory of that event is replaced with the remembered version. Remember the event again and it is replaced with the third version of the memory. Remember again and a new version is remembered.

This is why stories change over time. Each time a story is recalled form our memory we get the last time we remembered the story.

When researchers have looked back at UFO and paranormal stories they see that the stories change over time as told by any individual. Mothman for example went from no arms to arms. UFO stories become more lavish with time. These are normal things to happen with people, even people trying to properly and correctly report their experiences. Since these are their memories they seem very real to them. Well, they are their cherished memories even if the memories no longer match what happened.

I think Fravor is being honest, but his report is 15 years old and has been told many times. Are there any versions from 2004 that can be checked. Any version from back then s going to be more accurate than anything stated since that time.

[I'mConvinced]

On 8/2/2020 at 1:59 PM, joc said:

It doesn't matter whether he is 'reliable' or not.  Your entire thread is based on a false premise....Hard Evidence.   Videos are not Hard Evidence.  They can never be Hard Evidence.  

Hard Evidence would be...a foregin space craft in our possesion that we could analyze.  An extraterrestrial creature in our possession that we could analyze.  Hard Evidence is Physical Evidence.

Do you mean hard evidence such as meta materials? If so then I've already covered this earlier in this thread. 

If you choose not to believe what you are being told then that's fine. If you dispute my sources then fine, but please provide some evidence to support your position. 

What isn't fine is saying the premise of the thread is false before going on to make a logical fallacy of your own. 

Evidence cannot be defined as you wish it to be. It would be great if we could all personally experience everything, and understand everything, but we can't. This means that for any given evidence, that you haven't experienced and understood first hand, you have to rely on sources of information that you trust and find to be reliable, both personally and in the eyes of the wider world. This is all I have done here and I am asking what can it all mean? 

So what you need to explain away is why the US military would sign a public contract with an organisation this forum considers a scam (TTSA), to investigate uses of this meta material in warfare? 

Tell us why they are creating a disinformation campaign and why they are lying about the study of advanced materials that the TTSA claims are extraterrestrial in origin? 

Give something that explains all of the evidence in this thread, that doesn't rely on faulty logic or selective interpretation, and I'll be the first to agree with whatever it may be. Until then I still consider this a mystery. 

[I'mConvinced]

On 8/2/2020 at 10:21 AM, ChrLzs said:

BTW, I'm a bit confused, or maybe IC is...  The gimbal video does have some 'spikes'.

Oh well, I'm sure IC will clarify.

In the meantime, anyone new to this and with a bit of curiosity, may wish to spend some time here, where you will get to meet Mick West - it's fairly long (25 minutes), but the subject at hand is covered quite early, so take a look at the first 10 mins or so, at least:

Like I said, I trust IC will be back to rebut the points that I made above, and also perhaps address Mick West's excellent coverage, which includes some demonstrations and some footage of other aircraft in similar systems, to prove his points.

It's you.

So have you answered any of my questions regarding the errors and downright lies told by Mick West before asking me to provide more? No. 

Mick West is a joke on this topic at this point. He lied, he misrepresented facts, changed his story and made calculations without all of the required information. I have addressed these questions to you so many times and each time you ignore them as you have no real answers.

Mick West's story changes with the wind and what are we on now? Version 3 with all the corrections he's had to make? I mean does he even know which direction his passenger plane was supposed to be flying in now? 

If all you have is Mick West and your appeal to 'how nice a guy he is', as if this is somehow relevant to his the correctness of his argument, then troll on dear sir. 

Edited August 10, 2020 by I'mConvinced

[I'mConvinced]

On 8/2/2020 at 2:55 PM, stereologist said:

I think Fravor is being honest, but his report is 15 years old and has been told many times. Are there any versions from 2004 that can be checked. Any version from back then s going to be more accurate than anything stated since that time.

I agree about memories, it's why we need multiple sources of information. 

There were no interviews at the time due to the incident remaining classified. There are multiple witnesses however and they have independently provided statements that, for the very large part, match. In fact it is the discrepancies that lend credence to this being memories rather than manufactured stories. 

I find it funny that China is backing a forum to lobby the UN for UFO disclosure, and that 30 countries are participating, at the exact same time as we have the US Navy disclosing events from 2004, 2014 and 2015 with a statement of ongoing incursions. 

You can not take it seriously but clearly many other credible people are, and now they have serious financial backing. This is covered in the following video:

Some info to chew on regarding the metamaterials:

 

 

[ChrLzs]

@I'mConvinced , you are the perfect example of the type that these folks prey on.  If you check back over your last several posts, you have no followers - no-one else is convinced, and you keep repeating your mantra that we aren't answering your claims.  But your claims are so utterly vague, and utterly unsupported, there is nothing to debunk.

Just take the hint.  You COMPLETELY IGNORED my points above - clearly you have no answers, and no evidence and no useful knowledge.  You are completely out of your depth and ridiculously wedded to your fantasy.  Nothing will convince you that you have nothing and are simply wrong.  It's unsurprising that you are now posting angrily and filling up the empty space - space that should contain your evidence - with lame insults and ad hominems instead....

[stereologist]

2 hours ago, I'mConvinced said:

I agree about memories, it's why we need multiple sources of information. 

There were no interviews at the time due to the incident remaining classified. There are multiple witnesses however and they have independently provided statements that, for the very large part, match. In fact it is the discrepancies that lend credence to this being memories rather than manufactured stories. 

I find it funny that China is backing a forum to lobby the UN for UFO disclosure, and that 30 countries are participating, at the exact same time as we have the US Navy disclosing events from 2004, 2014 and 2015 with a statement of ongoing incursions. 

You can not take it seriously but clearly many other credible people are, and now they have serious financial backing. This is covered in the following video:

Some info to chew on regarding the metamaterials:

 

 

In other words you have nothing. You coud have simply stated that there is nothing.

You are also incorrect about the " due to the incident remaining classified." Fravor has stated that the videos and other information were not classified.

The meta-materials story from TTSA is garbage as is almost everything from that band of wackos.

[stereologist]

The claim of something amazing comes from that loon Howe. Plastics, ceramics, and other man made materials are metamaterials. Nothing special. People have been making these things for a long time.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metamaterial

Quote

A metamaterial (from the Greek word μετά meta, meaning "beyond" and the Latin word materia, meaning "matter" or "material") is any material engineered to have a property that is not found in naturally occurring materials.^[3] They are made from assemblies of multiple elements fashioned from composite materials such as metals and plastics. The materials are usually arranged in repeating patterns, at scales that are smaller than the wavelengths of the phenomena they influence. Metamaterials derive their properties not from the properties of the base materials, but from their newly designed structures. Their precise shape, geometry, size, orientation and arrangement gives them their smart properties capable of manipulating electromagnetic waves: by blocking, absorbing, enhancing, or bending waves, to achieve benefits that go beyond what is possible with conventional materials.

Even Kevin Randle thinks there is nothing to these claims.

https://kevinrandle.blogspot.com/2019/10/ttsa-metamaterial-and-us-army.html

Quote

According Justice, the material came from Linda Moulton Howe, and was once known as Art’s Parts, since they had been shared with the late radio host Art Bell which established the mid-1990’s time frame. In the mid-1990s, Howe commissioned Nicholas A. Reiter, described as a “technologist,” to examine this material, said to have come from the Roswell UFO crash. Reiter however, said that the material was of terrestrial origin. It was rare, it was unusual, but it was not alien. Something that Justice and Cannon seemed to have missed in their hype of the TTSA partnership with the Army.

Some people, not me, are being played by the TTSA.

Quote

But that isn’t all. Reiter updated his findings in 2001 saying, “The combination of bismuth and magnesium had eluded us for four years. But then one day, we found a reference to an obscure industrial process used in refinement of lead. The process, called the Betterton-Krohl Process, uses molten magnesium floated over a surface of liquid lead. The magnesium sucks up, or pulls bismuth impurities out of the lead! Often the magnesium is used over and over.”

 

But rather being new technology, the process was patented in 1938. It produces a thin crust of layered magnesium and bismuth, which is removed from the lead. Howe rejected all of this, saying that they needed a sample of this “slag” material to test against the “alien” sample that she had. Jacques Vallee suggested that samples of this waste could be found in France, Argentina and even the United States.

 

These claims of something being classified are just being used to avoid the embarrassment of being shown to have presented a scam to the public.

[ChrLzs]

Here's a special video for special people, about Linda Moulton Howe (warning - IQ drop ahead):

That's "convincing" for some....      

Seriously, imagine how excited I'mConvinced will be when he discovers Jaime Maussan, or maybe Jose Escamilla... or even better,. Steven Greer and then Nancy Lieder!

It's rather amusing, in a sad way, to see what these people have done to UFOlogy - no wonder people want to change its name to escape from these scammers and lunatics. 

[stereologist]

This reminds me of EVD showing pieces of Mayan jewelry and claiming it showed integrated circuits. It's all about finding technology way beyond the sort of scraps our industry leaves behind.

[johncbdg]

On 7/2/2020 at 7:10 PM, I'mConvinced said:

Can you explain why Commander David Fravor is not a reliable source? 

None of them can they trying to close the thread, they like life as they see it out of there window and that is it...

 

Fravor is a high ranking reliable source, he new that craft was not from any country on earth..

[stereologist]

20 minutes ago, johncbdg said:

None of them can they trying to close the thread, they like life as they see it out of there window and that is it...

 

Fravor is a high ranking reliable source, he new that craft was not from any country on earth..

Do you more than an appeal to authority? You claim "high ranking" and he was not high ranking. You claim "reliable", but can you prove that to be the case?

So far we have nothing but a story.  Are you accepting the story just because you want to believe?

[johncbdg]

15 minutes ago, stereologist said:

Do you more than an appeal to authority? You claim "high ranking" and he was not high ranking. You claim "reliable", but can you prove that to be the case?

So far we have nothing but a story.  Are you accepting the story just because you want to believe?

I do believe in UFOs long before this video came out, i do not think we have a bunch of drunks making up a story that later was backed up with video, now are you saying they never worked there doing those jobs and Fravor was not a top gun pilot and he never new what he was looking at....

[stereologist]

22 minutes ago, johncbdg said:

I do believe in UFOs long before this video came out, i do not think we have a bunch of drunks making up a story that later was backed up with video, now are you saying they never worked there doing those jobs and Fravor was not a top gun pilot and he never new what he was looking at....

Sorry but no one but you is saying "a bunch of drunks". Why are you belittling the aviators? Does that make you feel good about yourself to belittle the pilots?

Where di you ge this completly lunatic idea: " now are you saying they never worked there doing those jobs"? Are you able to read the post I wrote? It seems the answer  is no.

And here is your fallacy AGAIN! " and Fravor was not a top gun pilot " It doesn't matter what his job was . It still only a story.

About as good as your idiotic post gets is when you ask: "and he never new what he was looking at...." That's certainly a possibility.

I bet you have no idea how far away he was from the object. I bet you don't know that none of the videos are from Fravor's flight.

[I'mConvinced]

1 hour ago, stereologist said:

Sorry but no one but you is saying "a bunch of drunks". Why are you belittling the aviators? Does that make you feel good about yourself to belittle the pilots?

Where di you ge this completly lunatic idea: " now are you saying they never worked there doing those jobs"? Are you able to read the post I wrote? It seems the answer  is no.

And here is your fallacy AGAIN! " and Fravor was not a top gun pilot " It doesn't matter what his job was . It still only a story.

About as good as your idiotic post gets is when you ask: "and he never new what he was looking at...." That's certainly a possibility.

I bet you have no idea how far away he was from the object. I bet you don't know that none of the videos are from Fravor's flight.

In fairness I had to point out to you that the videos were indeed linked to the Nimitz incident, something you strenuously denied before leaving the thread never to return.

So when you say all we have is a story that's being disingenuous.  We have eye witness testimony from 7 of the 8 pilots involved, we have testimony from 2 of the radar operators, we have video footage that has withstood any debunk attempt I have seen so far, we have the US Navy confirming they are real videos and that they contain things they failed to identify, we have multiple reports or NOTAM's describing other incidents including near misses, we have a pentagon spokesperson confirming this is indeed the case and incursions have increased in frequency over recent years.  That's before we mention TTSA and the government contract to study something you guys claim is nothing but a hoax.

I would say that amounts to just a little more than a 'tall tale' without corroboration, which is paraphrasing you.

[I'mConvinced]

12 hours ago, ChrLzs said:

Here's a special video for special people, about Linda Moulton Howe (warning - IQ drop ahead):

That's "convincing" for some....      

Seriously, imagine how excited I'mConvinced will be when he discovers Jaime Maussan, or maybe Jose Escamilla... or even better,. Steven Greer and then Nancy Lieder!

It's rather amusing, in a sad way, to see what these people have done to UFOlogy - no wonder people want to change its name to escape from these scammers and lunatics. 

So you go for an ad hominem instead of answering the evidence?  My how the tables have turned eh.

So what is YOUR explanation for all I have presented? Don't leave any bits out now and lets hear your top theory.  This should be worth a laugh at least. 

*Edit* Actually I should credit you with a double fail as it's both a straw man argument and an ad hominem, bravo a new record.

Edited August 10, 2020 by I'mConvinced

[I'mConvinced]

15 hours ago, stereologist said:

The claim of something amazing comes from that loon Howe. Plastics, ceramics, and other man made materials are metamaterials. Nothing special. People have been making these things for a long time.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metamaterial

Even Kevin Randle thinks there is nothing to these claims.

https://kevinrandle.blogspot.com/2019/10/ttsa-metamaterial-and-us-army.html

Some people, not me, are being played by the TTSA.

These claims of something being classified are just being used to avoid the embarrassment of being shown to have presented a scam to the public.

Yet you fail to explain why the US military would sign a contract with a bunch of scammers.  Are you saying the CRADA shows how inept and stupid the US military are by signing up with frauds and charlatans? What is your position regarding the public release of those documents?  It's all very well cherry picking your arguments but to be taken seriously they have to fit ALL of the facts and not be your spurious opine on the credibility of certain people .

Edited August 10, 2020 by I'mConvinced
Grandma mistakes

[SeekTruth]

36 minutes ago, I'mConvinced said:

In fairness I had to point out to you that the videos were indeed linked to the Nimitz incident, something you strenuously denied before leaving the thread never to return.

So when you say all we have is a story that's being disingenuous.  We have eye witness testimony from 7 of the 8 pilots involved, we have testimony from 2 of the radar operators, we have video footage that has withstood any debunk attempt I have seen so far, we have the US Navy confirming they are real videos and that they contain things they failed to identify, we have multiple reports or NOTAM's describing other incidents including near misses, we have a pentagon spokesperson confirming this is indeed the case and incursions have increased in frequency over recent years.  That's before we mention TTSA and the government contract to study something you guys claim is nothing but a hoax.

I would say that amounts to just a little more than a 'tall tale' without corroboration, which is paraphrasing you.

Some folks here have eyes wide shut.

[XenoFish]

I guess we're all supposed to just be Yes Men on every subject now. Yep, UFO's and little green aliens are absolutely real. Evidence, psha, who needs that. 

[I'mConvinced]

18 hours ago, ChrLzs said:

@I'mConvinced , you are the perfect example of the type that these folks prey on.  If you check back over your last several posts, you have no followers - no-one else is convinced, and you keep repeating your mantra that we aren't answering your claims.  But your claims are so utterly vague, and utterly unsupported, there is nothing to debunk.

Just take the hint.  You COMPLETELY IGNORED my points above - clearly you have no answers, and no evidence and no useful knowledge.  You are completely out of your depth and ridiculously wedded to your fantasy.  Nothing will convince you that you have nothing and are simply wrong.  It's unsurprising that you are now posting angrily and filling up the empty space - space that should contain your evidence - with lame insults and ad hominems instead....

Yet you haven't made any valid points and I'm sorry but I don't hang from the coat tails of Mick West, nor do I need to appeal to his authority.  Address the facts, address the CRADA, address the glaring flaws in Mick West's analysis, address the pentagon statements, address the eye witness testimony.  Give us your take on what actually happened and why the Pentagon has spoken out at all. Man up for once.

If you have done all of the above then please point it out because all I see is you whining and posting youtube videos of a self proclaimed debunker getting it wrong.  Then, hilariously, you try to claim that by rallying your fan club or having more likes this somehow makes you less wrong, I mean really? They teach you how to avoid such fallacies in high school debate class, I guess you were sick that day. 

Let me spell it out for you so you can understand, you have taken the popular and easy road of scoffing and denying something that has been publicly ridiculed for years. As this is the prevailing view of course this is the more popular position.  The alternative is scary for most people, goes against many religions and isn't widely accepted as a real phenomena.  That you can't see the flaw in your own simple argument is worrying.  

[I'mConvinced]

4 minutes ago, XenoFish said:

I guess we're all supposed to just be Yes Men on every subject now. Yep, UFO's and little green aliens are absolutely real. Evidence, psha, who needs that. 

No, I expect people to address the facts with a reasonable explanation.  Given this should be super easy it baffles me as to why people seem to have so much trouble doing so.

[XenoFish]

1 minute ago, I'mConvinced said:

No, I expect people to address the facts with a reasonable explanation.  Given this should be super easy it baffles me as to why people seem to have so much trouble doing so.

Show me a real alien corpse. I might change my tune. As for unidentified flying objects, sure those exist. Alien craft with creatures that come to butt probe people and mutilate cattle, not so much.