Grim Reaper 6 Posted July 4, 2020 #101 Share Posted July 4, 2020 11 hours ago, Jarocal said: It should give one pause to think about the conditions in a country one is willing to leave to enter America illegally. We may needs look at what they consider a better life, not what one is viewed through our lens. For some it may be food security, safer communities, better education opportunities. For others it may just be a temporary situation where they only wish to work here a few years and save money back in their own country to affect positive economic opportunities in their home country. The reasons are varied as the individuals who make the decision to immigrate. Better life is a vague umbrella cast over a very diverse group of people that does not adequately express the complexity of the issue. Yes I think you have hit the nail on the head. But, the thing I don't buy that has been added by others is that the majority of these people are Criminals, because the facts don't bear that statement out. But, President Trump and his followers use that as the reasoning behind handling the situation like he has, even though that reasoning is not warranted, but what is another lie to President who lies almost every time he opens his mouth in one form or another. Thanks for your thoughts on this, and like I said you really hit that point out of the ball park. Peace Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grim Reaper 6 Posted July 4, 2020 #102 Share Posted July 4, 2020 11 hours ago, Myles said: I agree and disagree. With many things, bringing Obama up is foolish, but with some it makes complete sense. As in the detaining of minors at the border. It is something that took place under Obama and he did not receive grief for it, but now people call Trump racist for it. The comparison is fair. No the comparison is only fair, if the President isn't a racist. That's where I don't agree with you, the President has shown himself to be racist if not in deed yet, He certainly has in word, on far to many occasions he has openly made racist comparisons and racist comments. He doesn't even try to hide the fact, that he is a bigot, this is the real reason he uses Obama as an example all time, and this is also why he has systematically dismembered everything Obama put in place while he was President whether it was good or bad for the country. But the thing I can't excuse is the fact during the Obama Administration they put together a plan for the Federal Government Response for a Pandemic. What does President Trump do, he disregards it out of hand, and still to this day his Administration hasn't produced a plan or even figured out how to deal with Pandemic, how many people have to die in your opinion before the Government should take action??? So you are certainly welcome to you opinion, but on this topic we will have to agree to disagree. Peace 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tatetopa Posted July 4, 2020 #103 Share Posted July 4, 2020 2 hours ago, Manwon Lender said: What does President Trump do, he disregards it out of hand, and still to this day his Administration hasn't produced a plan or even figured out how to deal with Pandemic, how many people have to die in your opinion before the Government should take action??? I would say there is a pattern here. No plan for the pandemic, no plan for the economy, no plan for what to accomplish in a second term. No plan for a replacement for Obamacare, just the desire to throw it out and the silly promise that something will come along to replace it that will be better and cheaper. No plan for how to use immigration to benefit the economy. No plan for how to come out of the trade war ahead of where we started. No plan for how to withdraw troops and still protect them. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grim Reaper 6 Posted July 4, 2020 #104 Share Posted July 4, 2020 30 minutes ago, Tatetopa said: I would say there is a pattern here. No plan for the pandemic, no plan for the economy, no plan for what to accomplish in a second term. No plan for a replacement for Obamacare, just the desire to throw it out and the silly promise that something will come along to replace it that will be better and cheaper. No plan for how to use immigration to benefit the economy. No plan for how to come out of the trade war ahead of where we started. No plan for how to withdraw troops and still protect them. Yea and that is truly frightening, but I suppose those who follow him also emulate that same pattern. Because they don't even have plan they can effectively use to defend him, there first response to a negative comment about him is always same " Your hate is obvious or Obama caused this to happen " which is comical especially since Obama has not been President for more than 3 years. But, one thing about Trump Supporters they are all dedicated, and they also all Parrot every comment the President makes. I have been wondering why they also bring up Obama, or Parrot President Trumps comments, and after reading a number of the posts by them, I have come to the following conclusion. They do this because they lost their identity of self, the Trump Nationalistic approach to Government does not require anyone to consider self any longer. It only requires them to be a cog in the wheel of Nationalism, so they give up the most important part of what makes us human and that is individuality, and they allow his words and beliefs to guide them, without even understanding the repercussions his actions have upon on our society and our country. Now if that isn't sad, and I mean very sad what can be, but we can always hope they will snap out of it like many are doing today. His empty promises, his uneducated approach to the Nations problems, his daily lies, and his complete lack of empathy have caused the National Disaster America is now facing. This is causing a reawaking, people who voted for him before are changing their minds every day, people want solutions, for the National Tragedy that is currently occurring, not the dismissal the President offers when he asked about it. This Pandemic is going to be his undoing, and either he is too blind to see that or he thinks the American people are dumb to realize he is nothing but and empty suit, who's leadership skills can not get him out of bed and to the nearest bathroom in the middle of the night. This President is going to go down in history as the man who disrupted, caused division, and was responsible for more unnecessary deaths than any other Leader our country has ever had, now that is one hell of way to be remembered. Peace Brother, I agree with everything you said, every word of it true, and while many will disagree with US that doesnt matter at all. Because nothing can be gained buy acting like a zombify human being or like the Parrots our rivals find necessary to communicate their Party Lines. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tatetopa Posted July 4, 2020 #105 Share Posted July 4, 2020 24 minutes ago, Manwon Lender said: This Pandemic is going to be his undoing, and either he is too blind to see that or he thinks the American people are dumb to realize he is nothing but and empty suit, Now the word coming from the White House is that we need to learn to live with it. Some people will buy that. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grim Reaper 6 Posted July 4, 2020 #106 Share Posted July 4, 2020 Just now, Tatetopa said: Now the word coming from the White House is that we need to learn to live with it. Some people will buy that. Yes they will, and I am going to start selling Ocean Front Property in Arizona Too, hell, I will even throw the Golden Gate Bridge in for free!!!!! Peace Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+and-then Posted July 4, 2020 #107 Share Posted July 4, 2020 On 7/2/2020 at 6:42 AM, Myles said: It's not as bad as you make it out to be. I don't recall anyone talking about it when Obama was president (it was the same). They have a curious blind spot. They never admit that those chain link "kennels" were built and used under the Obama administration. And, to do him justice, the idea behind securely segregating vulnerable children was the right move. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+and-then Posted July 4, 2020 #108 Share Posted July 4, 2020 1 hour ago, Tatetopa said: Now the word coming from the White House is that we need to learn to live with it. Some people will buy that. As opposed to crawling into a safe space and weeping silently forever? It's a VYE RUS. It is now an endemic virus and it isn't going anywhere. Eventually most people will contract it and 80+ percent of those who catch it will be just fine. It's childish to try to blame this on Trump but by all means, carry on. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RoofGardener Posted July 4, 2020 #109 Share Posted July 4, 2020 5 hours ago, Manwon Lender said: No the comparison is only fair, if the President isn't a racist. That's where I don't agree with you, the President has shown himself to be racist if not in deed yet, He certainly has in word, on far to many occasions he has openly made racist comparisons and racist comments. He doesn't even try to hide the fact, that he is a bigot, this is the real reason he uses Obama as an example all time, and this is also why he has systematically dismembered everything Obama put in place while he was President whether it was good or bad for the country. But the thing I can't excuse is the fact during the Obama Administration they put together a plan for the Federal Government Response for a Pandemic. What does President Trump do, he disregards it out of hand, and still to this day his Administration hasn't produced a plan or even figured out how to deal with Pandemic, how many people have to die in your opinion before the Government should take action??? So you are certainly welcome to you opinion, but on this topic we will have to agree to disagree. Peace Oh PLEASE. A desire to stop illegal immigrants coming into your country is Racist ? Well... I guess it is.. sort of. After all, most would-be illegal immigrants are non-white. But the motive for detaining them is NOT based on their race, but on the fact that they have no legal right to enter the country. To call that "racist" is to degrade the term "racist" into meaninglessness. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grim Reaper 6 Posted July 4, 2020 #110 Share Posted July 4, 2020 5 minutes ago, RoofGardener said: Oh PLEASE. A desire to stop illegal immigrants coming into your country is Racist ? Well... I guess it is.. sort of. After all, most would-be illegal immigrants are non-white. But the motive for detaining them is NOT based on their race, but on the fact that they have no legal right to enter the country. To call that "racist" is to degrade the term "racist" into meaninglessness. Hello Roofy, thanks for your opinion, but I disagree with you completely, and I will respond to part of what you said. I am not speaking about the motive for detaining anyone, I am speaking about how Children are being separated from their mothers at all ages and the conditions they are living in. Along with the fact hundreds have been dying every year, do to a lack of supervision, a lack of medical care, and a lack of empathy by the people responsible for their care, if you think what's going on is fine, that's on you and if that is the case please don't respond to another post I make, because I have nothing to say to you. Peace Roofy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grim Reaper 6 Posted July 4, 2020 #111 Share Posted July 4, 2020 19 minutes ago, and then said: As opposed to crawling into a safe space and weeping silently forever? It's a VYE RUS. It is now an endemic virus and it isn't going anywhere. Eventually most people will contract it and 80+ percent of those who catch it will be just fine. It's childish to try to blame this on Trump but by all means, carry on. Tell us how you really feel!!! Peace 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RoofGardener Posted July 4, 2020 #112 Share Posted July 4, 2020 23 minutes ago, Manwon Lender said: Hello Roofy, thanks for your opinion, but I disagree with you completely, and I will respond to part of what you said. I am not speaking about the motive for detaining anyone, I am speaking about how Children are being separated from their mothers at all ages and the conditions they are living in. Along with the fact hundreds have been dying every year, do to a lack of supervision, a lack of medical care, and a lack of empathy by the people responsible for their care, if you think what's going on is fine, that's on you and if that is the case please don't respond to another post I make, because I have nothing to say to you. Peace Roofy You have ducked my point. In what way is enforcing immigration law "racist" ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grim Reaper 6 Posted July 4, 2020 #113 Share Posted July 4, 2020 27 minutes ago, RoofGardener said: You have ducked my point. In what way is enforcing immigration law "racist" ? No your point was clear, and I gave you an opposing point of view. Like I said, since you choose to overlook what I originally quoted on, and obviously have no concern for those children I have nothing left to say you!!! So I don't care where you put your point!! Peace 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
preacherman76 Posted July 4, 2020 #114 Share Posted July 4, 2020 On 7/2/2020 at 5:22 PM, Jodie.Lynne said: Well then, let's add to the count, shall we: - demanding that those seeking refugee status 'go back to Mexico' to await a decision (Policy, struck down by the courts() He demanded these people be stopped and processed in Mexico. BTW Most of those people do not meet refugee status. On 7/2/2020 at 5:22 PM, Jodie.Lynne said: - not condemning white supremist groups (Not policy, but giving a green light to racists. This is an outright lie. On 7/2/2020 at 5:22 PM, Jodie.Lynne said: - firing as many Inspectors General as possible ( again, not policy, but what is he afraid they will see? ) Really? So what? On 7/2/2020 at 5:22 PM, Jodie.Lynne said: - alienating Allied countries, while cuddling up to dictators (Policy, not written, but in action) How? What are you talking about? Since when is making countries live up to the obligations they agreed to “alienating”? This one just blows my mind. On 7/2/2020 at 5:22 PM, Jodie.Lynne said: - backing out of treaties You mean the Paris accord? The one where we hand over hundreds of billions of dollars, that will of course raise taxes to the point of putting millions into poverty? On top of it lose a estimated 6 million jobs, while other countries are free to pollute as much as they want? That treaty? Anyone who would be dumb enough to sign that clearly wants to destroy this country. On 7/2/2020 at 5:22 PM, Jodie.Lynne said: - abandoning our Kurdish allies, after they assisted us. Not only the Kurdish fighters, but their families, wives, and children were also sacrificed. There is only one way to fix the atrocities we committed in the ME. And that’s to get the hell out of there. We weren’t even legally at war with Syria. If you want to blame this mess on anyone, you can point the finger at Bush and Obama. Heck Obama more so, as Bush hadn’t got that far yet. How do you feel about the illegal war against Libya that Obama and “we came, we saw, he died” Hillary Clinton started? You know, the war where they turned the most prosperous nation, with the highest standard of living in the Middle East into a extreme Islamic hell hole. Where they today sell slaves in auctions in the middle of the street. Imagine that, our first black president directly responsible for slave trading. You can’t make this stuff up. Trump unfortunately hasn’t been all I would have liked him to be, but at least he isn’t a war monger who is hell bent on selling us out to China. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jarocal Posted July 4, 2020 #115 Share Posted July 4, 2020 9 hours ago, Manwon Lender said: But, the thing I don't buy that has been added by others is that the majority of these people are Criminals, because the facts don't bear that statement out. But, President Trump and his followers use that as the reasoning behind handling the situation like he has, even though that reasoning is not warranted, but what is another lie to President who lies almost every time he opens his mouth in one form or another The term "criminals" is disingenuous in that it does not have a operational definition attached to it with various politicians amending their own rules as to who gets counted as a criminal. The same happens in our poorer domestic communities where a simply possession charge can label a person as a criminal and have ramifications in their life beyond the punishment period prescribed by the judge. But again, pick any president going back Carter's office. They all detained and deported people in similar fashion. Every president has tampered with the same system since the amnesty bill during Reagan's Administration which was to be a stopgap measure while Congress was to implement changes to the same broken immigration system that still exists decades later. DACA and rescinding DACA are reactionary attempts to alter a predictable outcome that has already occured. Building a wall is like clamping rubber around a broken pipe in a process. It may stop leaking for a short while, or drip slowly at an acceptable level. But that pipe is still broken and needs fixed. No President has the tools to address the causes of the system failures. All they have are executive orders to try and inspect/rework the outcomes which is a costly, inefficient way to operate a process. Congress has the toolset, authority, and duty to make the changes necessary and provide the method to achieve the desired process fitting with the aims of immigration policy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grim Reaper 6 Posted July 4, 2020 #116 Share Posted July 4, 2020 2 minutes ago, Jarocal said: The term "criminals" is disingenuous in that it does not have a operational definition attached to it with various politicians amending their own rules as to who gets counted as a criminal. The same happens in our poorer domestic communities where a simply possession charge can label a person as a criminal and have ramifications in their life beyond the punishment period prescribed by the judge. But again, pick any president going back Carter's office. They all detained and deported people in similar fashion. Every president has tampered with the same system since the amnesty bill during Reagan's Administration which was to be a stopgap measure while Congress was to implement changes to the same broken immigration system that still exists decades later. DACA and rescinding DACA are reactionary attempts to alter a predictable outcome that has already occured. Building a wall is like clamping rubber around a broken pipe in a process. It may stop leaking for a short while, or drip slowly at an acceptable level. But that pipe is still broken and needs fixed. No President has the tools to address the causes of the system failures. All they have are executive orders to try and inspect/rework the outcomes which is a costly, inefficient way to operate a process. Congress has the toolset, authority, and duty to make the changes necessary and provide the method to achieve the desired process fitting with the aims of immigration policy. In reality it goes much farther than that, the entire Fruit and Vegetable Farming industry would collapse without migrant workers and it has been for close to 80 years. But not only that many of the menial jobs in America are also done the migrants, and everyone knows this, but asked about all the politicians act stupid. In truth the very jobs I am talking about Americans will not even do, because the pay is not high, the hours are long, and the work is very hard. But, you my problem with Trump is why he does what he does, it not for good of America, it not for the good of the American People, it is however based upon his personal view of the people and the color of their skin. President Trump has proven on far to many occasions that he is a bigoted racist, and this issue is just another crusade for him to use as a way to strengthen is political base. This President is faced with so many issues right now, that immigration is no longer important to him, and if he doesn't do something and fast concerning this Pandemic he is not going to be around after November. Peace 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jarocal Posted July 4, 2020 #117 Share Posted July 4, 2020 1 hour ago, Manwon Lender said: reality it goes much farther than that, the entire Fruit and Vegetable Farming industry would collapse without migrant workers and it has been for close to 80 years. But not only that many of the menial jobs in America are also done the migrants, and everyone knows this, but asked about all the politicians act stupid. In truth the very jobs I am talking about Americans will not even do, because the pay is not high, the hours are long, and the work is very hard I aware of things such as the plight of the immakolee tomato workers. But other things should be considered. Take apple production. Which two countries that lead the world in apple production are reliant on human labor for picking and grading? America and China. Berry/nut picker machines are widely used in Europe but not as much in the States as it is a false cost analysis that it is cheaper to pay human pickers than to utilize automation to perform the same task. Part of this may be a subconscious response to the devastation automation wreaked on the manufacturing sector and another may be short term thinking in cost of equipment compared to cheap labor. The cost of food in America is artificially low. With improvements to the agriculture system those costs could remain the same and still yield increased profits for American farmers. 1 hour ago, Manwon Lender said: President Trump has proven on far to many occasions that he is a bigoted racist, and this issue is just another crusade for him to use as a way to strengthen is political base. This President is faced with so many issues right now, that immigration is no longer important to him, and if he doesn't do something and fast concerning this Pandemic he is not going to be around after November. Yes the orange buffoon campaigned the first time on Drain the swamp, build a wall, etc. Anyone who paid attention in high school to how our government is set up should have known he can do no more to effect changes aside from exerting political pressure on the body who are assigned the task of making the changes. All the president can do is simply be a cheerleader for the American public to cause action by Congress. Neither of the last two presidents have been effective at doing such. I would say three but 9/11 coalesced the American population in a way that Dubya could be construed as doing so. His father less so though not as reviled. Clinton and Reagan were the last two though facing partisan issues managed to get Congress to actually perform part of their jobs. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RoofGardener Posted July 4, 2020 #118 Share Posted July 4, 2020 2 hours ago, Manwon Lender said: ...President Trump has proven on far to many occasions that he is a bigoted racist,..... No he hasn't. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tatetopa Posted July 4, 2020 #119 Share Posted July 4, 2020 9 hours ago, and then said: As opposed to crawling into a safe space and weeping silently forever? No as opposed to standing up like brave humans can, taking responsibility, being honest and fighting for our lives and our countrymen. Indeed, it is only a virus and we are supposedly intelligent modern human beings with several hundred years of scientific discovery about disease control to draw on. We can refuse to fall back on the primitive, hide our heads and hope for a miracle to make it go away. We can refuse to console ourselves that it is survival of the fittest and we are better off without old folks and young people with defects. We can fight for all of us as some countries have done. It was a chance to promote unity that our President and his devoted followers did not want.. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tatetopa Posted July 4, 2020 #120 Share Posted July 4, 2020 6 hours ago, RoofGardener said: No he hasn't. Central park 5. Obama's birth certificate. We need a wall because Mexicans are murderers and rapists; not because every nation needs a secure border. We want immigrants from Sweden not from sh**hole countries. BLM is an organization of hate. And now, anybody who wants to challenge the trend of our white supremacist history is a Marxist who wants to destroy the country. Yeah he is. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grim Reaper 6 Posted July 4, 2020 #121 Share Posted July 4, 2020 8 hours ago, RoofGardener said: No he hasn't. If you can't see it, you must emulate his behavior, and that is sad. Peace Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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