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Pre-Columbian trans-oceanic contact theories


Unusual Tournament

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21 hours ago, Piney said:

Not with Lakota even though they share loan words. Maybe Penutian. It has that feel. 

The Penutian may present a geographical problem. My thoughts were more along the lines of earlier Pre-Contact, Great Lakes region Siouxan speakers. Or possibly even the later Arapaho associations, though their Plains Algonquian shouldn't be that different from the Blackfoot.

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2 minutes ago, Swede said:

The Penutian may present a geographical problem. My thoughts were more along the lines of earlier Pre-Contact, Great Lakes region Siouxan speakers. Or possibly even the later Arapaho associations, though their Plains Algonquian shouldn't be that different from the Blackfoot.

Arapaho was almost lost so I never heard it spoken but I thought it was related to Blackfoot. 

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1 hour ago, Jarocal said:

I thought Atlantean priestesses had red hair, befreckled pale skin, and green eyes?

Mine does.

Harte

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On 7/3/2020 at 2:48 AM, Piney said:

So where are the ship rats, yersina pestis and animal pox in Canada prior to 1492?  

The Columbian Exchange negates this. 

viking ships may not have had rats up on arrival , longships apparently like sailing a sinking ship.  

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18 minutes ago, travelnjones said:

viking ships may not have had rats up on arrival , longships apparently like sailing a sinking ship.  

They were open and the critters had no place to hide. 

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3 hours ago, Piney said:

Ah! The blond haired, blue eyed high priest who taught those backwards brown people how to act. :yes:

I just had a  quick look in the book to remind myself of how out there he was. The name Ra Ta is easy to remember, but I had forgotten his pharaoh Araaraart and companions, such as, Tit-Tut-Ar-Mon and Ja-Ja-Guar, presumably a relative of Jar Jar Binks. There's also an Ra-Tu, so I wonder if Lucas is an acolyte.

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Just now, Wepwawet said:

I just had a  quick look in the book to remind myself of how out there he was. The name Ra Ta is easy to remember, but I had forgotten his pharaoh Araaraart and companions, such as, Tit-Tut-Ar-Mon and Ja-Ja-Guar, presumably a relative of Jar Jar Binks. There's also an Ra-Tu, so I wonder if Lucas is an acolyte.

I can't wrap it around my autistic wired brain why he still has followers. 

Right now I'm trying to get 2 of his followers' clinics shut down who are using a Radiac to not have any effect on "treat?" autism, pushing poisonous herbs and are both staunch antivaxxers. 

Apparently as long as you have the "Quack Miranda Warning" on everything you are covered. :hmm:
 

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10 hours ago, whatsthat said:

 

I was just reading the wiki on this subject.

I found the part about the shipwrecked Japanese sailors interesting. There are recorded events of Japanese sailors and fishermen being swept out into the pacific and later being shipwrecked on the west coast of North America.

Although there appears to be no hard evidence of pre-Columbian events like this its quite probable that similar events had happened before Columbus.

Of course the survivors would have been very few and they had no hope of making a returning journey. Most likely they would have been killed or absorbed by any Native Americans they encountered. 

I think its very possible that similar events had been happening long before Colombus and occasionally Chinese, Japanese, Korean ships etc could have ended up shipwrecked on the west coast of the Americas. 

They wouldn't have been able to go back and they wouldn't have come as explorers or colonisers or conquerers they would have been a few starving castaways and unless anything was passed down in the oral traditions of the local Native Americans forgotten and presumed lost at sea.

The same could also be true of the Atlantic. Limited contact from shipwrecks.

Earlier peoples also knew the world was round and maybe they had the same idea as Columbus to try and reach Asia via a westward route but they underestimated the journey length/supplies required/inadequate knowledge of the conditions etc (it took Columbus five weeks from the Canary Islands and Jon Cabots more northward route started 'in May' but did make landfall until 24th of June and these were equipped for long sea voyages in ships capable of making a return journey.

So instead of being able to share news of their discovery and arriving like the later Europeans did they arrived a few starved survivors in an unknown land and assumed lost at sea. Isolated events perhaps never recorded and of course unprovable unless someone finds the wreck of a Roman Merchant ship or Phoenician trading Galley.

 

 

The currents in the Pacific bring them straight into the land fairly quickly compared to the Atlantic currents which except in the far north tend to sweep thing out to sea and to the North East. There a  current that operates off west Africa put that would have tended to move disabled ships to the northern part of South America. Fairly heavy ship use in NE Asia, not much shipping off the west coast of Africa* until the Portuguese. So possible, plausible but currently no evidence. Solid evidence for it having occurred in the Pacific in historic times and very probably happened before.

*About the 14th century that area became busy and yeah the Portuguese who were trying to coast the west coast of Africa were soon swept off to Brazil.

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7 minutes ago, Piney said:

I can't wrap it around my autistic wired brain why he still has followers. 

Right now I'm trying to get 2 of his followers' clinics shut down who are using a Radiac to not have any effect on "treat?" autism, pushing poisonous herbs and are both staunch antivaxxers. 

Apparently as long as you have the "Quack Miranda Warning" on everything you are covered. :hmm:
 

Yes, a reminder that "alternate" is not just having a kooky view on the past, but can be dangerous in the present. I see there is rumour of bubonic plague, so I'm off to get "essential oils" and some crystals, that'll keep me safe, won't it....

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13 minutes ago, Wepwawet said:

Yes, a reminder that "alternate" is not just having a kooky view on the past, but can be dangerous in the present. I see there is rumour of bubonic plague, so I'm off to get "essential oils" and some crystals, that'll keep me safe, won't it....

So long as you avoid carriers of the plague as well, why not...:rofl:

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11 minutes ago, Wepwawet said:

Yes, a reminder that "alternate" is not just having a kooky view on the past, but can be dangerous in the present. I see there is rumour of bubonic plague, so I'm off to get "essential oils" and some crystals, that'll keep me safe, won't it....

People get "Alternative" and "Traditional" confused. If a peer reviewed study says it doesn't work or is dangerous a real Traditional Healer will stop using it.

Then there's the logical fallacy that says herbs are natural, not chemicals. :lol:

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9 minutes ago, Piney said:

People get "Alternative" and "Traditional" confused. If a peer reviewed study says it doesn't work or is dangerous a real Traditional Healer will stop using it.

Then there's the logical fallacy that says herbs are natural, not chemicals. :lol:

Being natural herbs is not a preclusion of chemical properties.

I mean pot smokers call weed natural, but they all know the chemical that gets them high from it.

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9 minutes ago, Jarocal said:

I mean pot smokers call weed natural, but they all know the chemical that gets them high from it.

and tears up their DNA in the stuff produced in the reproductive organs creating monsters like me. ^_^

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1 hour ago, Piney said:

and tears up their DNA in the stuff produced in the reproductive organs creating monsters like me. ^_^

CvLQhr.gif

Harte

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3 hours ago, Piney said:

and tears up their DNA in the stuff produced in the reproductive organs creating monsters like me. ^_^

If your typical of the progeny produced by pot smokers, no wonder academia is OCD delusional...:D

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8 hours ago, Jarocal said:

So long as you avoid carriers of the plague as well, why not...:rofl:

Better yet, erect 730 statues of Sekhmet. I've already got five, so only 725 to go. This will work, just like the last time, oh......

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3 hours ago, Wepwawet said:

Better yet, erect 730 statues of Sekhmet. I've already got five, so only 725 to go. This will work, just like the last time, oh......

I would strong advise against erecting any status during BLM protests. 

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13 minutes ago, Captain Risky said:

I would strong advise against erecting any status during BLM protests. 

I like the proposed Trump statue with him wearing a rodeo buckle and holding a squad rifle. 

It reflects his true character.  :yes:

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46 minutes ago, Piney said:

I like the proposed Trump statue with him wearing a rodeo buckle and holding a squad rifle. 

It reflects his true character.  :yes:

Brother I see a trump statue and I’m going ape chit on it. :yes:

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4 hours ago, Piney said:

I like the proposed Trump statue with him wearing a rodeo buckle and holding a squad rifle. 

It reflects his true character.  :yes:

I've had some sad thoughts that in the future there WILL be statues of him - at least one at his Presidential Library, and horror of horrors a High School in New York will probably be named for him...euuuuch

As to your statue idea it would be him with those as you state and in the flowing robes of an emperor setting the crown atop his own head  - like Napoleon did.

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1 hour ago, Cookie Monster said:

What a derailment.

Even this threat has turned into a we hate Trump debate LMAO.

Yep, because the subject has been beaten to death multiple times. The answers to the question about easier contacts with the Americas are well known. The three/four waves of HSS who occupied it, the Inuit and Aleuts who spent thousands of years rediscovering Asia and the Americas on a monthly basis, the Vikings and then the Italian dude, everyone else is possible, some more plausible than others with a general low probability the farther you go back in history.

However, please restart the conversation - beat that horse. You could start with acknowledging that you were wrong in your opinions or you can make the same claims over and over again - that is always a popular option.

Edited to add: For a change of pace go with "the people in the Americas discovered the old world".  FUN!

Edited by Hanslune
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5 minutes ago, Hanslune said:

Yep, because the subject has been beaten to death multiple times. The answers to the question about easier contacts with the Americas are well known. The three/four waves of HSS who occupied it, the Inuit and Aleuts who spent thousands of years rediscovering Asia and the Americas on a monthly basis, the Vikings and then the Italian dude, everyone else is possible, some more plausible than others with a general low probability the farther you go back in history.

However, please restart the conversation - beat that horse. You could start with acknowledging that you were wrong in your opinions or you can make the same claims over and over again - that is always a popular option.

Edited to add: For a change of pace go with "the people in the Americas discovered the old world".  FUN!

I am not wrong for stating what Columbus said to the Spanish monarchy about other peoples saying they already knew of America. Nor am I wrong for pointing out controversies in his Admiral Log which I have linked too. Nor am I wrong for pointing out what Montezuma is on record as saying to Cortes. 

These are all valid claims that need to be investigated. Yes, they go against the hypothesis that only peoples from North East and South East Asia made it to the Americas. But we can see in this very thread that suggesting anything otherwise is automatically deemed as `racist` and thats been the case ever since the end of WW2. There is a drive to close down debate on this topic due to ethnic sensitivities.

To recap Columbus told the Spanish Monarch at the time that the Portuguese, Arabs, and Indians (thats South Asians not native American Indians) claimed there was land out there. With the Portuguese its because they tracked bird migrations from the Canaries and Azores so they knew land was out there and in what direction. There is no historical record to say they knew of Brazil for sure, but in their negotiations with the Pope to divide the soon to be discovered world into Spanish and Portuguese spheres of influence they suspiciously had the line moved west so they could have Brazil. I haven`t looked for any accounts from the Arabs or Indians to figure out why Columbus said they knew of the Americas.

To recap the Mali have two accounts of a voyage to the Americas. The first was successful (I would have to look back but it was something like 200BC or 300BC). One ship made it back and reported the finding. Nothing is written about what happened to the 2nd voyage. But we have the Mali records saying both took gold tipped spears for trading, and Cortes reported there were African traders already in the Americas when he arrived and they were trading gold tipped spheres.

We have the Viking Sagas claiming both a settlement in the Americas and the establishment of Vinland. We have only located the settlement, we haven`t yet determined where Vinland was and if there are any other ruins there waiting to be excavated. The Welsh and Irish both have legends of voyages out into the Atlantic which discovered land out there. With the Solutreans hypothesis then there are arrow tips which have been discovered that look similar to those people in ancient France were making. We have two Roman Mosaics with what could be pineapples on, Roman shipwrecks at a bay in Brazil which its government cemented over.

Then there are Chinese claims of discovering America before Columbus, two ancient Chinese historical records talking about Fusang being a huge land mass far out to the east across the ocean which both rather strangely get the distance too it exactly right. Finally there is also Plato who said Egyptian Priests knew there was a vast continent out there opposite the Pillars of Hercules.

With the number of mounting claims I think its wrong at this point to remain in a closed mind regarding past peoples that made it to the Americas. 

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24 minutes ago, Cookie Monster said:

I am not wrong for stating what Columbus said to the Spanish monarchy about other peoples saying they already knew of America.

....

 

Columbus was mistaken about the identity of the land that he had reached, and kept thinking he was in the Far East:

 

Quote

He never clearly renounced his belief that he had reached the Far East and gave the name indios ("Indians") to the indigenous peoples he encountered. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christopher_Columbus)

 

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2 hours ago, Hanslune said:

I've had some sad thoughts that in the future there WILL be statues of him - at least one at his Presidential Library...

I pity the masochist illiterate they find to be librarian there. 

—Jaylemurph 

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