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The Wistman

Supremes find in favor of Native Americans

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The Wistman
Posted (edited)

Landmark Supreme Court Ruling Affirms Native American Rights in Oklahoma

A 5-4 decision declaring that much of eastern Oklahoma is an Indian reservation could reshape criminal justice in the area by preventing state authorities from prosecuting Native Americans.

Quote

The Supreme Court said Thursday that a large swath of eastern Oklahoma remains an American Indian reservation, a decision with potential implications for nearly 2 million residents and one of the most significant victories for tribal rights in years.

The land at issue contains much of Tulsa, the state’s second-largest city. The question for the court was whether Congress officially eliminated the Muscogee (Creek) Nation reservation when Oklahoma became a state in 1907.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/courts_law/supreme-court-says-much-of-eastern-oklahoma-remains-indian-land/2020/07/09/7bdc42d4-c1e2-11ea-9fdd-b7ac6b051dc8_story.html

 

Edited by The Wistman
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Montmorency the Dog

You can always rely on Diana Ross to do the right thing

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The Wistman

Trump's Tulsa rally-goers should enjoy their new status.

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spartan max2
3 hours ago, The Wistman said:

A 5-4 decision declaring that much of eastern Oklahoma is an Indian reservation could reshape criminal justice in the area by preventing state authorities from prosecuting Native Americans.

My understanding of reservations is pretty limited.

@Piney is that how it normally works? People living on reservations can not be prosecuted by the state?

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Solipsi Rai

As a person of Osage/Cherokee ancestry with maternal family roots in Oklahoma, I feel they are becoming more like independent countries now, tribal nations need to have more jurisdictional rights over their own lands. July 9, 2020 will go down in history as "Oklahoma tribal Independence day", besides upwards to 20% of Oklahoma's people have Native American ancestry, half the state's lands should have been theirs anyway. From 1838-1907 (statehood), the Cherokee Nation of Indian Territory was supposed to be sovereign, though it was still part of the USA, I wondered what it would be like if the Cherokee Nation was an actual republic like Canada or Mexico are. 

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and then
1 hour ago, Solipsi Rai said:

I wondered what it would be like if the Cherokee Nation was an actual republic like Canada or Mexico are. 

It would leave the inhabitants in a worse situation because they would no longer be represented in Congress at all.  But the primary goal of those pushing these kinds of rulings is simpler than that.  It's just another means to the end they are pursuing.  They want to take this nation down.

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Piney
4 hours ago, spartan max2 said:

My understanding of reservations is pretty limited.

@Piney is that how it normally works? People living on reservations can not be prosecuted by the state?

No, only Feds for federal charges. We have our own cops, but many tribes in Oklahoma aren't on Rezs. 

 

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Jarocal
Posted (edited)
39 minutes ago, Piney said:

No, only Feds for federal charges. We have our own cops, but many tribes in Oklahoma aren't on Rezs. 

 

@Piney

Omg but it would be too funny for the tribes to impose taxes on county/municipal administrations operating within their territory as is allowed by this ruling. Granted the tribes would have to increase their infrastructure to patrol with civil law enforcement and other public services but the idea of indigenous people taxing people who are currently in their land legally amuses me. If Congress attempts to rescind the previously agreed upon and longstanding treaty that has been abused I will vote against their reelection regardless of party.

This case seems to prove that the orange buffoon got one thing right in his first term with the appointment of Gorsuch. 

Edited by Jarocal
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zep73
1 hour ago, and then said:

It would leave the inhabitants in a worse situation because they would no longer be represented in Congress at all.  But the primary goal of those pushing these kinds of rulings is simpler than that.  It's just another means to the end they are pursuing.  They want to take this nation down.

Not everything is a conspiracy. This is not a conspiracy and BLM is not a marxist conspiracy. I'm starting to worry about your mental health, bro!

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spartan max2
2 hours ago, Piney said:

No, only Feds for federal charges. We have our own cops, but many tribes in Oklahoma aren't on Rezs. 

 

Do you see this really as good or bad? And why?

Geniunally curious.

 

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Piney
2 hours ago, and then said:

It would leave the inhabitants in a worse situation because they would no longer be represented in Congress at all.  But the primary goal of those pushing these kinds of rulings is simpler than that.  It's just another means to the end they are pursuing.  They want to take this nation down.

The 6 Nations already has our own treaty with China, which has accepted 6 Nations passports since the 90s. The Lenape Confederation also has a Treaty with China and Sweden. 

4 hours ago, Solipsi Rai said:

As a person of Osage/Cherokee ancestry with maternal family roots in Oklahoma, I feel they are becoming more like independent countries now, tribal nations need to have more jurisdictional rights over their own lands. July 9, 2020 will go down in history as "Oklahoma tribal Independence day", besides upwards to 20% of Oklahoma's people have Native American ancestry, half the state's lands should have been theirs anyway. From 1838-1907 (statehood), the Cherokee Nation of Indian Territory was supposed to be sovereign, though it was still part of the USA, I wondered what it would be like if the Cherokee Nation was an actual republic like Canada or Mexico are. 

George Washington actually promised the Lenape would be the 14th state......liar...

8 minutes ago, spartan max2 said:

Do you see this really as good or bad? And why?

Good, they'll have more control over their own land and a situation like I had with the State Police will never happen. 

If my farm was on a rez and I pulled my legal piece on White folks I'd be able to just shoot them like my stepmother does.

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Piney
2 hours ago, Jarocal said:

Omg but it would be too funny for the tribes to impose taxes on county/municipal administrations operating within their territory as is allowed by this ruling. Granted the tribes would have to increase their infrastructure to patrol with civil law enforcement and other public services but the idea of indigenous people taxing people who are currently in their land legally amuses me. If Congress attempts to rescind the previously agreed upon and longstanding treaty that has been abused I will vote against their reelection regardless of party.

Rez or not we always had tribal cops and courts. Now they have more teeth. 

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Manwon Lender
1 hour ago, zep73 said:

Not everything is a conspiracy. This is not a conspiracy and BLM is not a marxist conspiracy. I'm starting to worry about your mental health, bro!

I wanted to say the same thing, but it isn't worth it because he just too out of touch with reality, it's actually kinda sad.

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susieice
4 hours ago, Solipsi Rai said:

I wondered what it would be like if the Cherokee Nation was an actual republic like Canada or Mexico are. 

Canada and Mexico are also native lands aren't they @Piney ?

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Piney
Just now, susieice said:

Canada and Mexico are also native lands aren't they @Piney ?

Mexicans are mostly Natives. Mexican cooking and culture is Cathlocized Native.   Actually Latinos have no Spanish  mtDNA across the board. 

But there are tribes than span all three nations.

The Pima, Kikapu and others are both in Mexico and the U.S. The 6 Nations, Anishanabe, Blackfoot and Lenape Confederation is both in the U.S.and Canada.

The Pima are raising hell right now because the Wall cut their sacred land in half and they destroyed graves building it. 

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Kittens Are Jerks
23 minutes ago, susieice said:

Canada and Mexico are also native lands aren't they @Piney ?

Canada very much so.

Our Indigenous peoples comprise First Nations (the original inhabitants of what is now Canada), Inuit (who primarily inhabit the northern regions) and Métis (people of mixed European and Indigenous ancestry). 

There are more than 630 First Nation communities in Canada, representing more than 50 Nations and 50 Indigenous languages.

https://www.rcaanc-cirnac.gc.ca/eng/1100100013785/1529102490303

The name Canada originated from the St. Lawrence Iroquoian word kanata, meaning village or settlement.

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Cookie Monster
11 hours ago, Piney said:

Mexicans are mostly Natives. Mexican cooking and culture is Cathlocized Native.   Actually Latinos have no Spanish  mtDNA across the board. 

But there are tribes than span all three nations.

The Pima, Kikapu and others are both in Mexico and the U.S. The 6 Nations, Anishanabe, Blackfoot and Lenape Confederation is both in the U.S.and Canada.

The Pima are raising hell right now because the Wall cut their sacred land in half and they destroyed graves building it. 

Thats an odd situation to be in.

There will be those who cling to their native American ancestry, pass it onto their kids, and I suppose secretly hope they will one day be recognised as their own nation. Then on the other side will be those who have accepted their nation no longer exists, and have placed the focus onto integration and helping their kids get on in life as US Americans.

I would choose the latter, change has happened and is unlikely to be reversed.

The USA isn`t bad either, its the most successful country on the planet so I would be bringing my kids up as Americans. I would be helping them fit in, helping them learn as much as possible while younger to give them a head start at school, encouraging them to go to college and university to study subjects they are likely to get a well paid job in, then hopefully they would be up and running in life.

Ancestry would be the occasional look through the family photo album or look at the family tree. But I would make sure to keep them aligned with being US Americans while doing so.

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Piney
3 minutes ago, Cookie Monster said:

Thats an odd situation to be in.

There will be those who cling to their native American ancestry, pass it onto their kids, and I suppose secretly hope they will one day be recognised as their own nation. Then on the other side will be those who have accepted their nation no longer exists, and have placed the focus onto integration and helping their kids get on in life as US Americans.

I would choose the latter, change has happened and is unlikely to be reversed.

The USA isn`t bad either, its the most successful country on the planet so I would be bringing my kids up as Americans. I would be helping them fit in, helping them learn as much as possible while younger to give them a head start at school, encouraging them to go to college and university to study subjects they are likely to get a well paid job in, then hopefully they would be up and running in life.

Ancestry would be the occasional look through the family photo album or look at the family tree. But I would make sure to keep them aligned with being US Americans while doing so.

:rolleyes:

 

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Jarocal
6 hours ago, Cookie Monster said:

Thats an odd situation to be in.

There will be those who cling to their native American ancestry, pass it onto their kids, and I suppose secretly hope they will one day be recognised as their own nation. Then on the other side will be those who have accepted their nation no longer exists, and have placed the focus onto integration and helping their kids get on in life as US Americans.

I would choose the latter, change has happened and is unlikely to be reversed.

The USA isn`t bad either, its the most successful country on the planet so I would be bringing my kids up as Americans. I would be helping them fit in, helping them learn as much as possible while younger to give them a head start at school, encouraging them to go to college and university to study subjects they are likely to get a well paid job in, then hopefully they would be up and running in life.

Ancestry would be the occasional look through the family photo album or look at the family tree. But I would make sure to keep them aligned with being US Americans while doing so.

I'm not native American but why would I dismiss a Treaty, granting me not only all the rights imbued by the constitution but also some Autonomy for my people (though often ignored by Americans courts)? The supreme court just interpreted the law and said "Umm, your in violation of the treaty. Either Congress needs to renegotiate the treaty or honor the existing one" As the existing one stands, state, county, and municipal governments who have trampled the treaties may find themselves subject to any potential taxes these tribal nations may wish to impose on the residents of what the supreme court has stated is the tribal land under the treaty. May it be cheaper to simply pay a tax imposed by the nation they have illegally operated in/asserted control for decades? Possibly. Even if the tribal council does not pursue such a course, could those same governments be culpable for illegally enforcing illegal taxes on the members of those tribes?

Let's be realistic, the tribes don't really want that land back. It has already been developed beyond the capability of their resources to properly manage even if the Supreme Court had dictated an eviction notice for everyone not a tribal member. What they want more is the other rights under the treaty respected, and possibly a bit of remuneration (potentially through a fairly administered tax) for the longstanding violation of a negotiated treaty with the United states.  If municipalities who have illegally operated on stolen ground can legislate taxes, why can't the nation whose ground they are by court decision illegally existing on. Would be far easier and cheaper to pay them a similar residency or individual wage tax as many municipalities employ than to pick up stakes and move.

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Manwon Lender
Posted (edited)
9 hours ago, Piney said:

:rolleyes:

 

I totally agree with you he is also out of touch with realty, but what do you expect he is attached at the hip to the other Trump supports who posted their comments in this thread. My brother you have much more patients than me, I would be on the War Path due to some of the thoughtless comments some of these people make:yes:.

Edited by Manwon Lender
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Peter B
On 7/11/2020 at 8:15 AM, and then said:

It would leave the inhabitants in a worse situation because they would no longer be represented in Congress at all.  But the primary goal of those pushing these kinds of rulings is simpler than that.  It's just another means to the end they are pursuing.  They want to take this nation down.

Forgive me for questioning this, but isn't there a difference between people seeking a particular ruling and a court granting it?

Surely if the case had no merit then the Supreme Court wouldn't have had a problem ruling against it?

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Tatetopa
13 hours ago, Cookie Monster said:

I would choose the latter, change has happened and is unlikely to be reversed.

Of course.  That is why the Brits voted so overwhelmingly to  dump their antiquated culture and language and defeat Brexit.  Far, far better to be a small part of a big modern state, and learn new languages and customs.  After all, Britain has been fading for a long time, It is a great opportunity for the average Brit to be part of one of the major current power blocks in the world.  Life will be so much better .  They have big professional bodies like the IMF to help guide your local finances.  Congratulations on  forward thinking.

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Tatetopa
On 7/10/2020 at 3:15 PM, and then said:

But the primary goal of those pushing these kinds of rulings is simpler than that.  It's just another means to the end they are pursuing.  They want to take this nation down.

Being obedient to the Constitution is trying to take this nation down?  Honoring treaties made in good faith by the United States is somehow unpatriotic?

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Autochthon1990

Look, lets just address the elephant in the room.

Do we /really/ lose anything by just giving the Cherokee half of Oklahoma? Would anybody really notice a difference? I'm not even sure there's people out there, just jackalopes, tumbleweeds, and the occasional Skinwalker. 

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