Hieroglyph palimpsest

[Cosmic Ray 82]

Hi all, first post in a long time. 
I’m looking for help. 
I want to find a second hieroglyph palimpsest to back up the truth about the “helicopter”. 
I need a second example to convince of the true story of the how the images were created. I’ve googled but I’m failing to find one. Can anyone point me in the right direction please?
 

Thanks in advance. 

Edited July 11, 2020 by Cosmic Ray

[Hanslune 13,281]

1 hour ago, Cosmic Ray said:

Hi all, first post in a long time. 
I’m looking for help. 
I want to find a second hieroglyph palimpsest to back up the truth about the “helicopter”. 
I need a second example to convince of the true story of the how the images were created. I’ve googled but I’m failing to find one. Can anyone point me in the right direction please?
 

Thanks in advance. 

Howdy Cosmic Ray

Not quite understanding what you are asking.

Are you looking for a second palimpsest of a helicopter to prove the AE actually meant a helicopter or a second palimpsest which exhibits the same method of getting a false image due to one hieroglyph being placed over and the top one eroding away?

 

[Cosmic Ray 82]

10 minutes ago, Hanslune said:

Howdy Cosmic Ray

Not quite understanding what you are asking.

Are you looking for a second palimpsest of a helicopter to prove the AE actually meant a helicopter or a second palimpsest which exhibits the same method of getting a false image due to one hieroglyph being placed over and the top one eroding away?

 

Oh dear god, the latter!

I want another example of a palimpsest to demonstrate that this is a genuine occurrence and a rational explanation of the so-called “helicopter”. 
I can’t find any reference to any other Egyptian palimpsest apart from one in the Book of the Dead. 

[Wepwawet 1,693]

Relics from the Amarna period are littered with them due to name changes. It's because of a number of them on Tutankhamun's funeral equipment that we know the previous owner was Ankhkheperure, which had been superimposed with Nebkheperure. None of them are as visually interesting as the ones at Abydos though, but far more important.

[Thanos5150 598]

3 hours ago, Cosmic Ray said:

Hi all, first post in a long time. 
I’m looking for help. 
I want to find a second hieroglyph palimpsest to back up the truth about the “helicopter”. 
I need a second example to convince of the true story of the how the images were created. I’ve googled but I’m failing to find one. Can anyone point me in the right direction please?
 

Thanks in advance. 

[Kenemet 10,835]

The sarcophagus of Hatshepsut is a notable example where they recarved her name to her father's name, but left the female pronouns.

https://www.bartleby.com/essay/The-Sarcophagus-Of-Queen-Hatshepsut-P3H7YK4JPL9X#:~:text=This sarcophagus was originally prepared for Queen Hatshepsut,complicated puzzle of early New Kingdom political history.

You have to know what you're reading, but here "Maat-ka-re" has been recut to "Kepher-ka-re" (and rather unconvincingly)  You can still see the feather of Ma'at sticking out of the head of Kepher.

[Cosmic Ray 82]

Thanks Wepwawet and Kenemet, that’s exactly what I was looking for. 

[Windowpane 1,774]

No Whirlybirds at Abydos.

(Shame ...   )

[seanjo 6,601]

A simple search online not only gives images, it gives the simple explanation for these "helicopters"...

 

Helicopter hieroglyphs refer to an Egyptian hieroglyph carving from the Temple of Seti I at Abydos.

The "helicopter" image is the result of carved stone being re-used over time. The initial carving was made during the reign of Seti I and translates to "He who repulses the nine [enemies of Egypt]". This carving was later filled in with plaster and re-carved during the reign of Ramesses II with the title "He who protects Egypt and overthrows the foreign countries". Over time, the plaster has eroded away, leaving both inscriptions partially visible and creating a palimpsest-like effect of overlapping hieroglyphs.^[1][2]

In paleocontact hypothesis circles^[3] the hieroglyphs have been interpreted as an out-of-place artifact depicting a helicopter as well as other examples of modern technology. This claim is dismissed by Egyptologists who highlight this pareidolia is partly based on widely distributed retouched images that removed key details from the actual.......

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helicopter_hieroglyphs

Edited July 12, 2020 by seanjo

[Alchopwn 2,669]

15 hours ago, Cosmic Ray said:

Hi all, first post in a long time. 
I’m looking for help. 
I want to find a second hieroglyph palimpsest to back up the truth about the “helicopter”. 
I need a second example to convince of the true story of the how the images were created. I’ve googled but I’m failing to find one. Can anyone point me in the right direction please?
Thanks in advance. 

I believe that the original heiroglyph (it has eroded) was a side view of a pharaoh's mummy.  The tail fin is his feet etc. I am not utterly wed to this idea, but it seems plausible.

Edited July 12, 2020 by Alchopwn

[Wepwawet 1,693]

The trick played with the Abydos hieroglyphs is the usual fringe one of cutting out context, of presenting only what they want us to see.

Here we see more of the beam, and the cartouche that accompanies the "helicopter" hieroglyphs. The fringe want to say that the erosion of the "helicopter" hieroglyphs is "unusual" and cannot be a reason for what we see. Yes, so unusual that the cartouche right next to it suffers the same erosion, and it shows very clearly the prenomen of Ramesses II, Usermaatre-setepenre, superimposed on the prenomen of Seti I, Menmaatre. In the second photo I have outlined in red the name of Seti I. Though it is read as Menmaatre, the signs are written from left to right as Maat - men - Ra. Everything else in the jumble is the name of Ramesses II, and the "Maat" from his name is clearly visible in the middle of Seti's "men". The signs in the middle, "King of Upper and Lower Egypt" have not suffered as they are the only parts of the beam that did not need altering to refer to Ramesses II.

 

Edited July 12, 2020 by Wepwawet

[Thanos5150 598]

3 hours ago, Alchopwn said:

I believe that the original heiroglyph (it has eroded) was a side view of a pharaoh's mummy.  The tail fin is his feet etc. I am not utterly wed to this idea, but it seems plausible.

Why did I bother: 

[Hanslune 13,281]

5 hours ago, Windowpane said:

No Whirlybirds at Abydos.

(Shame ...   )

Everyone knows they were exclusively into autogyro's.

[Harte 18,268]

4 hours ago, Alchopwn said:

I believe that the original heiroglyph (it has eroded) was a side view of a pharaoh's mummy.  The tail fin is his feet etc. I am not utterly wed to this idea, but it seems plausible.

All you have to do is scroll up to Thanos' post. The top pic is the original. No mummy.

Harte.

[Alchopwn 2,669]

1 hour ago, Thanos5150 said:

Why did I bother: 

Sorry, I didn't see your earlier post.  I also think that your answer is more plausible than the one I presented.  My one question is, what caused the distortion of the left side of the bow that looks like a corner?

[Wepwawet 1,693]

For the sake of nerdiness if nothing else, but on topic, an example of a palimpsest  from Tutankhamun's canopic chest. The basic image is of his double cartouche on one of the sides. It his prenomen that is important, and here it is not correct, so I superimposed an image of the correct form from one of the other sides of the chest. I marked it thus to avoid it being copied and used out of context, it happens....

The line drawing on the left is the prenomen of Ankhkheperure, and the layout of the plural sign "III" is the significant factor. The red arrow on the left is pointing to one horizontal stroke, which will be the bottom stroke of the plural of Ankhkheperure. For some reason the workman has made the kheper too large and not left enough room for the three vertical lines of the plural, and in Tutankhamun's prenomen the lines are, with maybe some exceptions, vertical. He has also not removed the bottom stroke from the previous name of course. It can occur that the plural sign is deliberately left out if part of the overall design incorporates a triple image or motive. This can be seen in some necklace and pectoral designs where there are three instances of his prenomen side by side, so no need for the plural as the three instances of the name do the job.

However, on the canopic chest we have no triple element to stand in for the plural, so it is technically, and magically, the wrong name, it says Nebkhepere, not Nebkheperure, the "ru" being the plural, and being just a single manifestation instead of many. This is important, to an AE.

But while this all probably seems ultra nerdy, and we already know that many of his items were resused from Ankhkheperure Neferneferuaten, all is not as it seems, and this palimpsest may, and I stress may, indicate not Ankhkheperure Neferneferuaten, but Ankhkheperure Smenkhare. The reason is that on the cartouche I have used as an example, only the name Ankhkheperure could have been underneath Nebkheper[ru]re. Yet Ankhkheperure Neferneferuaten always has an epithet after Ankhkheperure, and to fit the epithet into a cartouche with the name, the plural is written as --- , but vertically, which also forms a divider between the name and the epithet. Therefore, IMO, we have Smenkhare as the original owner of the canopic chest, determined by one stroke of a plural left intact. This is why I said that the palimpsests from the Amarna period are far more important than nonsense about "helicopters".

 

Edited July 12, 2020 by Wepwawet

[Wepwawet 1,693]

These are the known cartouches of Ankhkheperure Neferneferuaten [Nefertiti]. For some reason I was not able to insert this in the above post due to file size, even though it is below the limit...

 

[Harte 18,268]

I'll just take this opportunity to post this link again for people that may be interested in the titularies.

"The Great Name, Ancient Egyptian Royal Titulary"

The forward is good information as well.

Harte

[Piney 70,867]

9 minutes ago, Harte said:

I'll just take this opportunity to post this link again for people that may be interested in the titularies.

"The Great Name, Ancient Egyptian Royal Titulary"

The forward is good information as well.

Harte

I was looking for the Mark Hofmann "Anthon Transcript" forgery........as translated by Barry Fell.  

Or anything by John Gee. 

[Wepwawet 1,693]

34 minutes ago, Harte said:

I'll just take this opportunity to post this link again for people that may be interested in the titularies.

"The Great Name, Ancient Egyptian Royal Titulary"

The forward is good information as well.

Harte

I would also suggest that it be read in conjunction with Volume 1 of "The Encyclopedia of the Pharaohs" by Darrell D. Baker, which reproduces the cartouches, an aspect oddly lacking in Leprohon, though Baker does not go into the same scholarly detail on the names as Leprohon. That's why I think both works are needed.

[Oniomancer 2,880]

9 hours ago, Wepwawet said:

The trick played with the Abydos hieroglyphs is the usual fringe one of cutting out context, of presenting only what they want us to see.

Here we see more of the beam, and the cartouche that accompanies the "helicopter" hieroglyphs. The fringe want to say that the erosion of the "helicopter" hieroglyphs is "unusual" and cannot be a reason for what we see. Yes, so unusual that the cartouche right next to it suffers the same erosion, and it shows very clearly the prenomen of Ramesses II, Usermaatre-setepenre, superimposed on the prenomen of Seti I, Menmaatre. In the second photo I have outlined in red the name of Seti I. Though it is read as Menmaatre, the signs are written from left to right as Maat - men - Ra. Everything else in the jumble is the name of Ramesses II, and the "Maat" from his name is clearly visible in the middle of Seti's "men". The signs in the middle, "King of Upper and Lower Egypt" have not suffered as they are the only parts of the beam that did not need altering to refer to Ramesses II.

 

 

 

Neat. Hadn't seen the ones to the left of the bug set before but the ones to the right of the chopper are enormously screwed up: (click image link for enlargeable picture)

 

Edited July 12, 2020 by Oniomancer

[Harte 18,268]

2 hours ago, Wepwawet said:

I would also suggest that it be read in conjunction with Volume 1 of "The Encyclopedia of the Pharaohs" by Darrell D. Baker, which reproduces the cartouches, an aspect oddly lacking in Leprohon, though Baker does not go into the same scholarly detail on the names as Leprohon. That's why I think both works are needed.

Yeah, well, mine was free.

Harte

[docyabut2 5,678]

it all just paintings that are clippings of paint   

[docyabut2 5,678]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helicopter_hieroglyphs

The "helicopter" image is the result of carved stone being re-used over time. The initial carving was made during the reign of Seti I and translates to "He who repulses the nine [enemies of Egypt]". This carving was later filled in with plaster and re-carved during the reign of Ramesses II with the title "He who protects Egypt and overthrows the foreign countries". Over time, the plaster has eroded away, leaving both inscriptions partially visible and creating a palimpsest-like effect of overlapping hieroglyphs.^[1][2]

 

[Trelane 2,470]

Thank you all for the information so far. This is well outside of my wheelhouse of expertise, but the entire subject of AE fascinates me. Truly amazing the complexity of their culture and society.