Trump Blocks COVID Data Reporting To CDC

[stereologist]

10 hours ago, and then said:

Calling a death covid related is far different than counting that death as FROM covid.  The numbers are clearly being inflated for political reasons.  The people need to know what's happening.

Thanks for your lack of understanding of medicine. It shows. There is an appropriate way to report medical issues and doctors do that regardless of the politicians that want to spin the numbers.

[stereologist]

1 hour ago, RoofGardener said:

That is a logical fallacy, and big one. 

If I have Covid, and then get run down by a bus, why would you put "Covid-19" on my death certificate ? I was killed by a bus. 

Show that that has ever happened. Making up ridiculous stories seems to be your bread and butter. Show that one accident victim has ever been listed as a COVID-19 death.

[stereologist]

7 hours ago, RoofGardener said:

That is incorrect @Manwon Lender; the geller article - to use one case in point - specifically quoted from a White House press conference. The bit about "all deaths WITH Covid are listed as Covid deaths" is entirely true, as are other quotes within the article. 

Your accusation of "no factual base" has - itself - no factual base. You are allowing your distaste for the authors in question to distort your perception of their articles. 

As for your question about "Conspiracy Theorist Rag"...that IS an interesting question. However, it was not ME that posted those links, so you'd have to take that up with the person who made the original post. ?  

 

I asked a question about this article and you posted a fake quote that did not appear in the article.

Quote

Glad you finally picked out something to discuss.

Here is the problem. That is not in the Geller article.

https://gellerreport.com/2020/04/coronavirus-death-numbers-fraud.html/

Why post a fake quote from the article?

[stereologist]

7 hours ago, RoofGardener said:

Actually, I made no comment about their legitimacy as media sources, pro or con. I just commented that - in this case - their articles where reasonably accurate. 

To answer your second question: I have no idea. You'd have to take that up with the person who originally linked those articles ? 

That's a falsehood. The article is not accurate at all. In fact, it misrepresents Fauci by taking a quote out of context.

[stereologist]

3 hours ago, RoofGardener said:

The article accurately quotes from a White House press briefing, specifically comments made by Coronavirus Task Force coordinator, Dr. Birx.  I can't comment as to the accuracy of Dr Birx's statement, but she is quoted accurately, I believe ?  

I'm not so sure about the comment attributed to Dr Fauci .. googling his alleged statement is not bringing up anything ? But the Dr. Birx statement is definitely true. 

The overall thrust of the article is that Covid-19 deaths are being over-represented. There IS some evidence for this. But time will tell. 

It's a quote taken out of context and that is the lie pushed by this bad article.

[stereologist]

3 hours ago, RoofGardener said:

Apparently she also tortures small kittens, and eats babies ? Be that as it may, the Geller article accurately quoted her in a major press conference. 

In regards Dr Fauci, I believe he has also confirmed that people who die WITH Covid-19 are listed as dying OF Covid-19. This is a significant distortion of the Covid mortality figures (though possibly an inevitable one, as it is sometimes difficult to determine WHAT killed somebody)

As for the HHS/CDC thing, I don't know WHAT to make of THAT ? 

Show us where that quote came from. BTW, I looked it up to see that the article purposely and maliciously used a quote out of context.

It fooled you and it fooled you easily didn't it?

[stereologist]

The geller report is obviously a junk rag which is willing to lie, misrepresent, and do whatever it wants to fool the gullible. And we see from this thread that it worked.

I asked the following:

Quote

Can you give us examples of what you think are from these articles?

And I received this:

Quote

Hmm... OK... 

The Geller Article cites Dr Birx, a member of the Covid Task Force, in a press conference: 

_________________________

": DR. DEBORAH BIRX: So, I think in this country we've taken a very liberal approach to mortality. And I think the reporting here has been pretty straightforward over the last five to six weeks. Prior to that when there wasn't testing in January and February that's a very different situation and unknown.

There are other countries that if you had a preexisting condition and let's say the virus caused you to go to the ICU and then have a heart or kidney problem some countries are recording as a heart issue or a kidney issue and not a COVID-19 death. Right now we are still recording it and we will I mean the great thing about having forms that come in and a form that has the ability to market as COVID-19 infection the intent is right now that those if someone dies with COVID-19 we are counting that as a COVID-19 death."

___________________________

In what way is Geller's claim false, in the light of that ? 

I go to the geller report and guess what? That's right this is NOT from the geller report. Go ahead everyone see if the text given by RoofGardener appears in the report.

https://gellerreport.com/2020/04/coronavirus-death-numbers-fraud.html/

But this is a quote from the geller report.

Quote

According to Coronavirus Task Force coordinator, Dr. Birx herself:

If someone dies with COVID-19, we are counting that as a COVID-19 death.

The Task Force’s unofficial leader, Dr. Fauci says:

 

I can’t imagine if someone comes in with coronavirus, goes to an ICU, and they have an underlying heart condition and they die—they’re going to say, ‘Cause of death: heart attack.’ I cannot see that happening.

 

So the question of course is why did Fauci say? Is that an accurate quote? Of course it isn't since geller's goal is to lie to people.

I found the press meeting and looked for the quote.

https://it.usembassy.gov/members-of-the-coronavirus-task-force-hold-a-press-briefing-april-7-2020/

Quote

DR. BIRX:  So, I think, in this country, we’ve taken a very liberal approach to mortality, and I think the reporting here has been pretty straightforward over the last five to six weeks.  Prior to that, when there wasn’t testing in January and February, that’s a very different situation and unknown.

There are other countries that if you had a pre-existing condition and let’s say the virus caused you to go to the ICU and then have a heart or kidney problem — some countries are recording that as a heart issue or a kidney issue and not a COVID-19 death.

Right now, we’re still recording it, and we’ll — I mean, the great thing about having forms that come in and a form that has the ability to mark it as COVID-19 infection — the intent is, right now, that those — if someone dies with COVID-19, we are counting that as a COVID-19 death.

Q    Are you — can you be sure — I mean, you hear from coroners that that’s not necessarily the case.  Are you sure?  How can you be confident about that?  And is there any concern that it skews the data that you’re trying to collect, in terms of projections and things like that?

DR. BIRX:  Well, I think that would apply more to rural areas that may not have the same level of testing.  But I — I am pretty confident in New York City —

DR. FAUCI:  Yeah.

DR. BIRX:  — and in New Jersey and places that have these large outbreaks and COVID-only hospitals, I can tell you they are testing.  New York and New Jersey together have — by proportion, are testing extraordinary well — as Washington State and Louisiana.  So, I don’t see that there’s been a barrier in testing to diagnosis.

DR. FAUCI:  No.  I — I think there’s so much focus now on coronavirus that — particularly if you take New York, which we all know is — is having a disproportionately higher proportion of the burden of the entire country is right now in New York.

No, I can’t imagine if someone comes in with coronavirus, goes to an ICU, and they have an underlying heart condition and they die — they’re going to say, “Cause of death: heart attack.”  I — I cannot see that — that happening.  So I don’t think it’s going to be a problem.

If we read this exchange we see that Birx states that the counts are correct but early counts are less certain.

It also says that Fauci agrees that COVID-19 counts are NOT being misrepresented.

This shows that Geller is a liar and people that took her junk rag as "reasonably accurate" were easily fooled.

[RoofGardener]

1 hour ago, Manwon Lender said:

No what you just said is a true Fallacy and it is not even logical, and it has nothing to do with what I said. In fact we are not even living in the same time or the same planet, that in no way compares to what I said!!!!!

You are irrational. 

[Duke Wellington]

1 hour ago, Manwon Lender said:

No what you just said is a true Fallacy and it is not even logical, and it has nothing to do with what I said. In fact we are not even living in the same time or the same planet, that in no way compares to what I said!!!!!

I`m sorry to have to tell you this, but you really are living in some kind of alternate dimension.

My mum died in hospital about 3 months back and had coronavirus. But she had also been a heavy drinker and smoker for most of her adult life causing herself heart, lung, liver, and kidney damage. The autopsy findings were that she would have had about 6 months left to live.

In hospital they were doing well treating to coronavirus, had significantly improved her heart and lungs, but the kidneys were causing issues. They were the last thing to be treated, and the medication they gave her for that came with the risk of a heart attack. Unfortunately she had signed a DNR on herself and had that heart attack.

The cause of death was (and I cannot remember the words used) a heart attack caused by the kidney medication. It listed that coronavirus was present, would have added some additional stress to her system, but that the virus at most would have only increased her change of death slightly. The alcohol damage was too severe and she would have likely been dead within 6 months anyway.

Covid-19 is mentioned on her death certificate not as the cause of death, but one of the contributing factors. Yet due to the way coronavirus is reported all people in which coronavirus was present (whether it killed them or not) are listed as coronavirus deaths.

Edited July 16, 2020 by Cookie Monster

[RoofGardener]

9 minutes ago, stereologist said:

The geller report is obviously a junk rag which is willing to lie, misrepresent, and do whatever it wants to fool the gullible. And we see from this thread that it worked.

I asked the following:

And I received this:

I go to the geller report and guess what? That's right this is NOT from the geller report. Go ahead everyone see if the text given by RoofGardener appears in the report.

https://gellerreport.com/2020/04/coronavirus-death-numbers-fraud.html/

 

I cordially invite EVERYBODY to go to the link that @stereologist has re-posted, and you will see the text that I posted. ("....If someone dies with COVID-19, we are counting that as a COVID-19 death..."). It's about a third of the way down. 

Sorry @stereologist  

[stereologist]

50 minutes ago, RoofGardener said:

I cordially invite EVERYBODY to go to the link that @stereologist has re-posted, and you will see the text that I posted. ("....If someone dies with COVID-19, we are counting that as a COVID-19 death..."). It's about a third of the way down. 

Sorry @stereologist  

And it shows that the geller rag misrepresented, i.e. lied, about the counting issue.

Sorry Roof Gardener everyone that sees the press meeting will see that the quote you claimed came from the geller report was not there and that the geller report lied.

Good job on doing a very poor job at being honest.

[odas]

The Canadian and US economies are conected. Both are suffering from this Covid pandemic. Borders are closed. Both, Canadians and Americans would like to have them open. But, if WE in Canada cannot rely on the accuracy of the Covid situation how can we go ahead and open borders? This is on Trump, again. A self inflicted wound, again.

Not reporting will not make it go away, maybe only in a goofs Head.

[RoofGardener]

19 minutes ago, stereologist said:

And it shows that the geller rag misrepresented, i.e. lied, about the counting issue.

Sorry Roof Gardener everyone that sees the press meeting will see that the quote you claimed came from the geller report was not there and that the geller report lied.

Good job on doing a very poor job at being honest.

I shall leave it to each individual member here to visit the link, and check for themselves. The geller report did not lie about that statement, and neither did I. If you can't see the statement, then I suggest you go to specsavers. It is clearly present. 

[stereologist]

1 hour ago, Cookie Monster said:

I`m sorry to have to tell you this, but you really are living in some kind of alternate dimension.

My mum died in hospital about 3 months back and had coronavirus. But she had also been a heavy drinker and smoker for most of her adult life causing herself heart, lung, liver, and kidney damage. The autopsy findings were that she would have had about 6 months left to live.

In hospital they were doing well treating to coronavirus, had significantly improved her heart and lungs, but the kidneys were causing issues. They were the last thing to be treated, and the medication they gave her for that came with the risk of a heart attack. Unfortunately she had signed a DNR on herself and had that heart attack.

The cause of death was (and I cannot remember the words used) a heart attack caused by the kidney medication. It listed that coronavirus was present, would have added some additional stress to her system, but that the virus at most would have only increased her change of death slightly. The alcohol damage was too severe and she would have likely been dead within 6 months anyway.

Covid-19 is mentioned on her death certificate not as the cause of death, but one of the contributing factors. Yet due to the way coronavirus is reported all people in which coronavirus was present (whether it killed them or not) are listed as coronavirus deaths.

Once again we see what I pointed out before.

The argument over the numbers is almost always done by those with a political bent. It is also done by those that think they are smarter than the specialists who deal with this. Instead of looking to see how numbers are formed they pretend they know more than the experts.

There are rules for counting. The rules need to be clear. If counts are based on different rules then they cannot be combined.

Here we see the notion of cause of death as being vague to the lay men, that is expected. The experts, the medical professionals, have to make a judgement all based on their knowledge and experience. It is their decision and hardly something those not trained or experienced to second guess.

[stereologist]

5 minutes ago, RoofGardener said:

I shall leave it to each individual member here to visit the link, and check for themselves. The geller report did not lie about that statement, and neither did I. If you can't see the statement, then I suggest you go to specsavers. It is clearly present. 

The geller report lied by misrepresenting the script of the meeting.

You can pretend all you want but I've already posted the entire section which I will repost to show that the geller report is the lying filthy rag it should be understood to be.

So the question of course is why did Fauci say? Is that an accurate quote? Of course it isn't since geller's goal is to lie to people.

I found the press meeting and looked for the quote.

https://it.usembassy.gov/members-of-the-coronavirus-task-force-hold-a-press-briefing-april-7-2020/

Quote

DR. BIRX:  So, I think, in this country, we’ve taken a very liberal approach to mortality, and I think the reporting here has been pretty straightforward over the last five to six weeks.  Prior to that, when there wasn’t testing in January and February, that’s a very different situation and unknown.

There are other countries that if you had a pre-existing condition and let’s say the virus caused you to go to the ICU and then have a heart or kidney problem — some countries are recording that as a heart issue or a kidney issue and not a COVID-19 death.

Right now, we’re still recording it, and we’ll — I mean, the great thing about having forms that come in and a form that has the ability to mark it as COVID-19 infection — the intent is, right now, that those — if someone dies with COVID-19, we are counting that as a COVID-19 death.

Q    Are you — can you be sure — I mean, you hear from coroners that that’s not necessarily the case.  Are you sure?  How can you be confident about that?  And is there any concern that it skews the data that you’re trying to collect, in terms of projections and things like that?

DR. BIRX:  Well, I think that would apply more to rural areas that may not have the same level of testing.  But I — I am pretty confident in New York City —

DR. FAUCI:  Yeah.

DR. BIRX:  — and in New Jersey and places that have these large outbreaks and COVID-only hospitals, I can tell you they are testing.  New York and New Jersey together have — by proportion, are testing extraordinary well — as Washington State and Louisiana.  So, I don’t see that there’s been a barrier in testing to diagnosis.

DR. FAUCI:  No.  I — I think there’s so much focus now on coronavirus that — particularly if you take New York, which we all know is — is having a disproportionately higher proportion of the burden of the entire country is right now in New York.

No, I can’t imagine if someone comes in with coronavirus, goes to an ICU, and they have an underlying heart condition and they die — they’re going to say, “Cause of death: heart attack.”  I — I cannot see that — that happening.  So I don’t think it’s going to be a problem.

If we read this exchange we see that Birx states that the counts are correct but early counts are less certain.

It also says that Fauci agrees that COVID-19 counts are NOT being misrepresented.

This shows that Geller is a liar and people that took her junk rag as "reasonably accurate" were easily fooled - and are still foolish.

[stereologist]

** deleted my post **

Edited July 16, 2020 by stereologist
wrong thread

[Duke Wellington]

1 hour ago, stereologist said:

Once again we see what I pointed out before.

The argument over the numbers is almost always done by those with a political bent. It is also done by those that think they are smarter than the specialists who deal with this. Instead of looking to see how numbers are formed they pretend they know more than the experts.

There are rules for counting. The rules need to be clear. If counts are based on different rules then they cannot be combined.

Here we see the notion of cause of death as being vague to the lay men, that is expected. The experts, the medical professionals, have to make a judgement all based on their knowledge and experience. It is their decision and hardly something those not trained or experienced to second guess.

Bearing in mind each country has its own criteria for counting then the stats are meaningless as a comparison.

But here in the UK (as its already been pointed out) a death for any course where the person had Covid-19 is being counted. I saw it first hand, my mum was only death number 19 where I am so her and the others were in our local paper as coronavirus deaths.

[stereologist]

26 minutes ago, Cookie Monster said:

Bearing in mind each country has its own criteria for counting then the stats are meaningless as a comparison.

But here in the UK (as its already been pointed out) a death for any course where the person had Covid-19 is being counted. I saw it first hand, my mum was only death number 19 where I am so her and the others were in our local paper as coronavirus deaths.

Only if the counting rules are different. Each country does have the ability to set their standards, but that does not mean the standards are incompatible or compatible. You have to check the counting rules.

Epidemiologists know the rules. That is part of their training. 

The untrained are those complaining about the counting rules and they almost always do it for political reasons.

Take a look at any of the scientific papers to see that they explicitly state the rules they used in making decisions. There are rules about inclusion and exclusion of subjects. There are rules about rejection of a subject during an experiment. There are explicit rules concerning how to count someone.

Papers are an easy place to find the procedural rules that are used. Manwon Lender has provided links showing how to report COVID-19 issues. Check out the reports.

[Duke Wellington]

1 minute ago, stereologist said:

Only if the counting rules are different. Each country does have the ability to set their standards, but that does not mean the standards are incompatible or compatible. You have to check the counting rules.

Epidemiologists know the rules. That is part of their training. 

The untrained are those complaining about the counting rules and they almost always do it for political reasons.

Take a look at any of the scientific papers to see that they explicitly state the rules they used in making decisions. There are rules about inclusion and exclusion of subjects. There are rules about rejection of a subject during an experiment. There are explicit rules concerning how to count someone.

Papers are an easy place to find the procedural rules that are used. Manwon Lender has provided links showing how to report COVID-19 issues. Check out the reports.

Stop the wishful thinking please.

There is no international alignment in reporting criteria.

[stereologist]

9 hours ago, Cookie Monster said:

Stop the wishful thinking please.

There is no international alignment in reporting criteria.

And there you show your ignorant self once again.   Please continue for the amusement of us all.

[Grim Reaper 6]

On 7/16/2020 at 10:40 PM, RoofGardener said:

You are irrational. 

Not irrational, and i also am not a troll, you on the other hand, well that's a question that doesnt need an answer.

[RoofGardener]

On 7/16/2020 at 2:32 PM, stereologist said:

So the question of course is why did Fauci say? Is that an accurate quote? Of course it isn't since geller's goal is to lie to people.

I found the press meeting and looked for the quote.

https://it.usembassy.gov/members-of-the-coronavirus-task-force-hold-a-press-briefing-april-7-2020/

If we read this exchange we see that Birx states that the counts are correct but early counts are less certain.

I

And Fauci states that - in effect - a heart attack victim would be counted as a COVID-19 death. 

[Michelle]

Man who died in motorcycle crash counted as COVID-19 death in Florida: Report

ORLANDO, Fla. (CBS12) — A man who died in a motorcycle crash was counted as a COVID-19 death in Florida, according to a new report from FOX 35 Orlando.

According to the report, Orange County Health Officer Dr. Raul Pino was asked whether two coronavirus victims in their 20s had any underlying medical conditions that could have potentially made them more susceptible to the virus.

Pino's answer was that one of the two people who was listed as a COVID death actually died in a motorcycle crash. Despite health officials knowing the man died in a motorcycle crash, it is unclear whether or not his death was removed from the overall count in the state.

Dr. Pino tells FOX 35 that one "could actually argue that it could have been the COVID-19 that caused him to crash."

cont...

https://cbs12.com/news/local/man-who-died-in-motorcycle-crash-counted-as-covid-19-death-in-florida-report

[Michelle]

4 minutes ago, Michelle said:

Man who died in motorcycle crash counted as COVID-19 death in Florida: Report

ORLANDO, Fla. (CBS12) — A man who died in a motorcycle crash was counted as a COVID-19 death in Florida, according to a new report from FOX 35 Orlando.

According to the report, Orange County Health Officer Dr. Raul Pino was asked whether two coronavirus victims in their 20s had any underlying medical conditions that could have potentially made them more susceptible to the virus.

Pino's answer was that one of the two people who was listed as a COVID death actually died in a motorcycle crash. Despite health officials knowing the man died in a motorcycle crash, it is unclear whether or not his death was removed from the overall count in the state.

Dr. Pino tells FOX 35 that one "could actually argue that it could have been the COVID-19 that caused him to crash."

cont...

https://cbs12.com/news/local/man-who-died-in-motorcycle-crash-counted-as-covid-19-death-in-florida-report

For those who don't know, this is from a local Florida station called FOX, because just about every city has one.

[RoofGardener]

Well, in 8 months or so's time, we'll know, because the total deaths figures for the year will be available. We can assume that every death above the annual average would be a Covid-19 death. 

Sadly, that is AFTER the elections, so no doubt President Trump will continue to be painted as a baby-eating mass murderer in the interim.