The Face Mask Controversy

[bee]

 

 

At the moment I feel that this is an unnecessary and draconian move - that will loose the Government Support...

After everything - to bring this in now feels like a backward step to me...  

I understand that there are arguments for and against but I think making it mandatory will not sit well with many of the public...

There are lots of variables to all this.... like how efficient are masks anyway...?..... or are they more symbolic.....?
Does a beard make a mask useless because a virus can easily get in or out...?
Does wearing a mask cause harm in terms of breathing in more carbon dioxide - breathing in less oxygen and normal fresh air...?
Why do some people think they need to wear a mask when they are alone in a car, walking over fields and /or in open spaces...?

etc

 

Random link for basic information (BBC)

Wearing a face covering in shops and supermarkets in England is to become mandatory from 24 July.

Those who fail to comply with the new rules will face a fine of up to £100, the government has announced.

Health Secretary Matt Hancock said it would "give people more confidence to shop safely and enhance protections for those who work in shops".

The move will bring England into line with Scotland and other major European nations like Spain, Italy and Germany.

Since mid-May, members of the public have been advised to wear coverings in enclosed public spaces, where they may encounter people they would not usually meet.

Mask-wearing has been compulsory on public transport in England and at NHS facilities across the UK since 15 June.

[Space Commander Travis]

I won't join in the argument about the Masks of Obedience. I've tried pointing out that they, the kind of cheap cloth/paper/whatever they're made of masks you see advertised in the papers, are utterly useless from a scientific point of view because the gaps between the strands are far too big to be of any practical use in blocking viruses, and that consequently their usefulness at protecting you is precisely zero, and their usefulness at blocking viruses emanating from you is so slim as to be barely measurable. People don't want to know these things. I suppose they want to just show that they're thinking of others and all the rest of the nauseatingly twee sanctimoniousness that's been the major consequence among the general public, or at any rate that portion of it that broadcasts loudly on social media, of the Covidemic. Or perhaps it's just that they want a badge to show their loyalty to the State, and what better badge than one that conceals your face, thus demonstrating that you're happy to suppress your individual identity and your ability to express emotions in any other way than by shouting loudly?>

[Space Commander Travis]

I think people who do need everyone else to Mask Up to " "give them more confidence to shop safely " are so feeble and pathetic that they ought to stay in their homes, trembling slightly, for the safety of others. Does the imbecile Hancock think that this will persuade more of the public to go and and do their patriotic duty and Shop? The man's mad.

Edited July 15, 2020 by Montmorency the Dog

[bee]

14 minutes ago, Montmorency the Dog said:

I think people who do need everyone else to Mask Up to " "give them more confidence to shop safely " are so feeble and pathetic that they ought to stay in their homes, trembling slightly, for the safety of others. Does the imbecile Hancock think that this will persuade more of the public to go and and do their patriotic duty and Shop? The man's mad.

 

that's the thing isn't it.... are masks mainly symbolic ?

I've heard it said that anything less than the kind of mask a surgeon would wear in the operating room  won't stop a virus going through it - 

It is also said that the mask is to protect other people and not yourself... but where's the logic in that?
If a virus can't be stopped going IN.... why should it be stopped going OUT...?

perhaps they think it might stop it a bit....like restrict a big sneeze or cough..?... (but not actually stop it - just the range )

 

 

[Timothy]

@bee some work well, some don’t. 

But if more people wear them whether good or bad, it still helps to minimize risk for you and others.

[bee]

 

also how are those who are officially exempt going to get on..?

will they have to wear a badge or have a certificate to show..?.... or will they get bad vibes and suspicious looks (or worse) from all those wearing masks ... like people with asthma or some other problem...?

why didn't the Government just trust the public to be doing the right thing (more or less)....

in a way this feels like a betrayal.... after all the cooperation that the public have shown since March 23rd (Lockdown) to turn round and do this at this stage of it all......

 

 

 

[+Hammerclaw]

No, they're not merely symbolic; they curtail the spread of the virus by sneezing and coughing. They offer protection from all but the smallest aerosolized droplets. So, while by no means a hundred percent effective, they do, significantly mitigate the risk from exposure in confined quarters with other people and also exposing other people to the virus, if infected.  

[Timothy]

3 minutes ago, bee said:

why didn't the Government just trust the public to be doing the right thing (more or less)....

Because they’re obviously not doing the right thing. 

[bee]

7 minutes ago, Timothy said:

@bee some work well, some don’t. 

But if more people wear them whether good or bad, it still helps to minimize risk for you and others.

 

people are forgetting that this was all supposed to be about SLOWING DOWN the spread so the NHS could cope...

the risk is always going to be there and IMO it's all been too hyped up anyway..

it's a nasty virus (from god knows where)... but 80% of people will get it mild to moderate and of the rest, the majority will probably be ok eventually if they get it bad and only a small % will die of complications...

the risk isn't as high as what's made out... 

 

Edited July 15, 2020 by bee

[bee]

9 minutes ago, Timothy said:

Because they’re obviously not doing the right thing. 

 

well I'm out and about in shops, the park and on occasions in Town... and I see people doing the right thing - 

maybe the government are feeling the pressure (from somewhere) to be SEEN doing the right thing but in reality it's not necessary to make it mandatory..

 

Edited July 15, 2020 by bee

[Setton]

35 minutes ago, bee said:

 

that's the thing isn't it.... are masks mainly symbolic ?

I've heard it said that anything less than the kind of mask a surgeon would wear in the operating room  won't stop a virus going through it - 

The virus itself is smaller than the gaps between fibres. However, it has to be carried in water droplets. Those water droplets will stick to the mask rather than being propelled to other people, thus far less of the virus is transmitted to the surroundings.

[+Hammerclaw]

Given a choice, at least half of ordinary Americans eschew wearing them. They are uncomfortable and symbolize a significant loss of personal freedom and degradation of the quality of life they had hitherto experienced. They symbolized loss of security, no job, no income, no sports, no summer gatherings, no socialization, no church. They symbolize isolation and loneliness, the very antithesis of American life. The people are walking a razor's edge, many already shucking the whole thing and would rather risk dying free than this interminable living in fear. It's irrational, illogical and quintessentially human. Many conservatives are, also, buying into the idea it is all a plot by liberals to influence the election, or, at least, being taken advantage of by them.

Edited July 15, 2020 by Hammerclaw

[Kismit]

they should symbolize reaching financial and personal freedom sooner, instead of being viewed as chastened now.

Pull yourself up by your boot strings, put the hard yards in for the rewards, do the uncomfortable to regain control.

Or don't and let it take longer. It's a no Brainer.

If you have a goal.like say re-opening your economy,  then you have to work to reach that goal. 

[Kismit]

46 minutes ago, bee said:

 

that's the thing isn't it.... are masks mainly symbolic ?

I've heard it said that anything less than the kind of mask a surgeon would wear in the operating room  won't stop a virus going through it - 

It is also said that the mask is to protect other people and not yourself... but where's the logic in that?
If a virus can't be stopped going IN.... why should it be stopped going OUT...?

perhaps they think it might stop it a bit....like restrict a big sneeze or cough..?... (but not actually stop it - just the range )

 

 

The logic is that if somebody else wears a mask, you have less chance of catching the disease and that's a nice thought that someone would protect you like that.

So how nice is it if you protect others and wear a mask, and if as a society you can get at least 80% of the population wearing them, you literally can decrease the spread quite rapidly.

It really is not rocket science. People either work towards a solution or they increase the problem.

[+and-then]

21 minutes ago, bee said:

people are forgetting that this was all supposed to be about SLOWING DOWN the spread so the NHS could cope...

the risk is always going to be there and IMO it's all been too hyped up anyway..

The goals have been a moving target for quite a while.  The CFR is under 1%.  Some analysts say it's as low as .02%

All we hear from media these days is a doom and gloom drumbeat about new cases.  We know that the numbers of deaths reported by CDC are simply untrustworthy.  As time passes it becomes more and more difficult to accept the narrative that this virus is as lethal as it's said to be.

[+Hammerclaw]

12 minutes ago, Kismit said:

they should symbolize reaching financial and personal freedom sooner, instead of being viewed as chastened now.

Pull yourself up by your boot strings, put the hard yards in for the rewards, do the uncomfortable to regain control.

Or don't and let it take longer. It's a no Brainer.

If you have a goal.like say re-opening your economy,  then you have to work to reach that goal. 

Easier for Island nations surrounded by a moat. Easier for countries with smaller less diverse populations. Here, with our massive population, we are jaded to large numbers of people dying, every year, from often preventable causes. A hundred thousand a year from the common flu, another hundred thousand from tobacco; eighty to hundred thousand deaths related to alcohol consumption, just to name a few. You are absolutely right Kismit and your people should stay steady on. Here, people have a different perception and extreme distaste for what the perceive, right or wrong, as egregious, authoritarian government over-reach. 

Edited July 15, 2020 by Hammerclaw

[bee]

 

I personally have only just stopped wearing a mask in shops - probably the last week or so... 

And sometimes I was the only one in a small shop wearing one... my daughter is pregnant and very scared about all the coronavirus thing and to put her mind at rest because we are spending a lot of time together preparing things for the baby.. I wore a mask when I went into shops.. and she would wait in the car.... I've done it all... the hand washing the sanitizing, the wiping the steering wheel and door handles and everything else with strong wipes...  etc etc etc.... jeeeezus in the beginning we didn't let anyone stroke our dogs --- just in case... 

in the early days of all this - if I felt I had been near someone who had coughed or even breathed too near me - (when I was wearing a mask) when I got home I would do a steam inhalant with camphor oil... because although I feel l'm fairly low risk to get it because I think I and many people in the town where I live had it at the end of last year... I did it just in case...

but now I think it's all settling down and after initially being paranoid about where all this was leading and the severity of the virus... 
I think we can ease off.... I've followed the guidelines etc....... but I feel making it mandatory to wear masks in shops now is a slap in the face and shows no trust in the General Public...

we are queuing up everywhere.... doing everything we can... but this latest about shops and masks at this stage is a step too far... IMO...

 

 

 

[+and-then]

23 minutes ago, Hammerclaw said:

many already shucking the whole thing and would rather risk dying free than this interminable living in fear.

I agree, totally with this.  When we add the reality of the unintended(?) consequences of drastic measures on our economy, the people are being stubborn and I'm all for that.  I don't plan to take any vaccine that magically appears next year, either.

[Space Commander Travis]

@bee might appreciate this article. People you see a lot on this forum very clearly demonstrate the characteristics noted. https://www.spiked-online.com/2020/07/14/muzzling-the-public/

Another thing I think it very clearly is a glorious opportunity for pure, guilt-free puritanism. "Thou must not!" written large on everything. 

[Kismit]

11 minutes ago, Hammerclaw said:

Easier for Island nations surrounded by a moat. Easier for countries with smaller less diverse populations. Here, with our massive population, we are jaded to large numbers of people dying, every year, from often preventable causes. A hundred thousand a year from the common flu, another hundred thousand from tobacco; eighty to hundred thousand deaths related to alcohol consumption, just to name a few. You are absolutely right Kismit and your people should stay steady on. Here, people have a different perception and extreme distaste for what the perceive, right or wrong, as egregious, authoritarian government over-reach. 

Ahh to big a problem. What would your doing anything do to help? It's too hard, why bother?

[+Hammerclaw]

1 minute ago, and then said:

I agree, totally with this.  When we add the reality of the unintended(?) consequences of drastic measures on our economy, the people are being stubborn and I'm all for that.  I don't plan to take any vaccine that magically appears next year, either.

My friend, I wear one at work(required) and any time I enter a store or shop. Nine out of ten here don't wear one. The first time a vaccine is made available, like my yearly flu shot, I'll take it, too. You can't be too cautious but, by God, you sure as hell can be not cautious enough. I almost died of Asian flu and then of Hong Kong flu. Better safe than sorry.

[+Hammerclaw]

Just now, Kismit said:

Ahh to big a problem. What would your doing anything do to help? It's too hard, why bother?

As you no doubt have read by now, I take it quite seriously and do what I can.

[+and-then]

24 minutes ago, Kismit said:

So how nice is it if you protect others and wear a mask,

That's the ONLY reason I bother to wear one.

[+and-then]

7 minutes ago, Hammerclaw said:

My friend, I wear one at work(required) and any time I enter a store or shop. Nine out of ten here don't wear one. The first time a vaccine is made available, like my yearly flu shot, I'll take it, too. You can't be too cautious but, by God, you sure as hell can be not cautious enough. I almost died of Asian flu and then of Hong Kong flu. Better safe than sorry.

I attended a gun show last Saturday and we were packed in like sardines and only about 1 in 5 or 6 were wearing masks.  I always wear one in public.

[bee]

 

I think the government will regret this authoritarian move.... ie the mandatory aspect + fines....

when It could have been done another way... like an intense appeal to wear a mask in shops if possible because..... etc etc...
and that would have bumped the numbers up... even though the NHS is coping now anyway and the Nightingale Hospitals were never needed / used...

I feel this is a backward step... treating the public like this after all the co operation...

The spread has been slowed down.... that was the aim.....and that aim has been achieved...