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The Face Mask Controversy


bee

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28 minutes ago, and then said:

One might ask if those who are advising extreme lock-down-type measures, have considered the morbidity and mortality that flows as a consequence of that.  The CFR IS very limited and yes, every life lost too soon is a tragedy for their family but we have to keep things in perspective.  The 1918 Influenza was FAR worse than this and they went about their life normally, as best they could.  No government handouts and few restrictions.

This virus is indeed a scourge and is causing unnecessary suffering and death but life goes on just as it always has done.

Of course they have considered bit. Economy is suffering, it's a stop gap solution.

Even if they, whoever that might be as most countries are deploying any measure to restart the economy, that would not make it fake. Especially to those who have died from it. That's just a dumb thing to say.

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1 hour ago, and then said:

One might ask if those who are advising extreme lock-down-type measures, have considered the morbidity and mortality that flows as a consequence of that.  The CFR IS very limited and yes, every life lost too soon is a tragedy for their family but we have to keep things in perspective.  The 1918 Influenza was FAR worse than this and they went about their life normally, as best they could.  No government handouts and few restrictions.

This virus is indeed a scourge and is causing unnecessary suffering and death but life goes on just as it always has done.

The CFR rate you are using was shown to be underestimate by the most during the SARS outbreak.

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The Anti-Mask League of San Francisco was an organization formed to protest the requirement for people in San Francisco, California, to wear masks during the 1918 influenza pandemic. ... Members of the league included physicians, citizens,[2] civil libertarians,[3] and at least one member of the Board of Supervisors. ...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Mask_League_of_San_Francisco

Civil libertarians, 'ey?

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to clarify.... my comment about 'fake pandemic'..... was about the (IMO) disproportionate response to coronavirus rather than the technicality of a pandemic...

technically it is a pandemic - so not fake in that way..... but the shutting down of society / economy and all that comes with that was disproportionate and it could have been tackled in a different way.. (again IMO)... I think leaders of countries got swept up in the fear factor and the pressure to be seen to be doing something big in response - and it has got mixed up with politics as well...

also it was steadily built up by the MSM... over a period of time and unfortunately the MSM can't be trusted to be fair, unbiased and politically neutral..

it looks like there is a general rise of virus related respiratory deaths at the moment anyway - and I expect that might be to do with increased populations and increased travel...? .... among other things..

for example...

https://www.who.int/news-room/detail/14-12-2017-up-to-650-000-people-die-of-respiratory-diseases-linked-to-seasonal-flu-each-year

 

Quote

14 December 2017 

News release

Up to 650 000 deaths annually are associated with respiratory diseases from seasonal influenza, according to new estimates by the United States Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (US-CDC), the World Health Organization and global health partners.

This marks an increase on the previous global estimate of 250 000 – 500 000, which dates from over ten years ago and covered all influenza-related deaths, including cardiovascular disease or diabetes. The new figures of 290 000 – 650 000 deaths are based on more recent data from a larger, more diverse group of countries, including lower middle income countries, and exclude deaths from non-respiratory diseases.

“These figures indicate the high burden of influenza and its substantial social and economic cost to the world,” said Dr Peter Salama, Executive Director of WHO’s Health Emergencies Programme. “They highlight the importance of influenza prevention for seasonal epidemics, as well as preparedness for pandemics.”

 

 

Edited by bee
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2 hours ago, and then said:

One might ask if those who are advising extreme lock-down-type measures, have considered the morbidity and mortality that flows as a consequence of that.  The CFR IS very limited and yes, every life lost too soon is a tragedy for their family but we have to keep things in perspective.  The 1918 Influenza was FAR worse than this and they went about their life normally, as best they could.  No government handouts and few restrictions.

This virus is indeed a scourge and is causing unnecessary suffering and death but life goes on just as it always has done.

re bolded.... yes and we are only part way through the consequences of that... 

also there are the mental health issues arising from it all.... people scared and lonely - the rise in stress which can weaken the immune system.. people not going to the doctors or hospitals when they should and operations being cancelled ....

on the flip side it has brought out a lot of community spirit as well... and an increased general kindness between strangers... :) 

 
 

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getting back to the face mask 'controversy'....

just a couple of days ago the government called for an urgent review of how coronavirus deaths are counted ....

this coming on the brink of the wearing of masks in shops becoming mandatory...

the Conservative Government are probably worried that they will not look good if they are making judgement and forcing extreme (badly timed?) rules on the public based on flawed data... ..... 

random link - metro 

Health Secretary Matt Hancock has reportedly called for an urgent review into the way Public Health England (PHE) counts coronavirus deaths. A scientist has realised PHE is ‘over-exaggerating’ the daily coronavirus death toll because it counts people as victims if they die of any cause at any time after testing positive for Covid-19.   Dr Yoon Loke, a pharmacologist at the University of East Anglia, made his findings public in a blog post on Thursday night. He wrote: ‘It seems that PHE regularly looks for people on the NHS database who have ever tested positive, and simply checks to see if they are still alive or not.

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On 7/15/2020 at 12:13 PM, Hammerclaw said:

No way to distinguish who contributed the virus. I suppose you could make a case for prosecuting government officials who allow Covid 19 positive patients admitted to nursing homes. Half the deaths here are nursing home related.

Meanwhile, we are being told that Trump is demeaning or dishonoring Fauci.  Fauci just went on record as praising Cuomo's efforts in NY.  

I wonder if the families of the 6500 nursing home fatalities would agree?  The guy is political and so are those who idolize him.

https://www.propublica.org/article/andrew-cuomos-report-on-controversial-nursing-home-policy-for-covid-patients-prompts-more-controversy

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2 hours ago, bee said:

 

getting back to the face mask 'controversy'....

 

There is no controversy, except in the heads of victims of the stupidest propaganda in history. 

Wear a mask, it helps stop spreading of the infection that has significant death rate and incapacitates people for weeks, sometimes leaving life-long damage on their lungs and other organs.

If you feel like wearing a mask to help save lives is an attack on your liberty, you're an insecure idiot who forgets that no dentist or surgeon would drool into your body in the name of their liberty to act irresponsibly. 

There's no discussion about this, at least not among sane adults. Just like washing your hands is not a matter of choice, but basic understanding of hygiene in a civilized society. And the damn distance is not that hard to keep, unless one lives to touch strangers in public places. 

 

Grow the **** up. 

The only controversy is in the fact that an actual hostile propaganda project - that started with the god damn anti-vaccination crap and evolved into encouraging morons into spiteful spreading of SARS-2 - was not contained yet, with legal means any sane country has.

In other words, all of you who are working on spreading the disease should be held legally responsible for the consequences of your propaganda efforts.   

 

Damn children. No offence to the actual children, who understand perfectly why masks and other measures are needed. 

Edited by Helen of Annoy
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26 minutes ago, Helen of Annoy said:

Grow the **** up. 

 

right back at ya.... :D

 

 

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54 minutes ago, Helen of Annoy said:

There is no controversy, except in the heads of victims of the stupidest propaganda in history. 

Wear a mask, it helps stop spreading of the infection that has significant death rate and incapacitates people for weeks, sometimes leaving life-long damage on their lungs and other organs.

If you feel like wearing a mask to help save lives is an attack on your liberty, you're an insecure idiot who forgets that no dentist or surgeon would drool into your body in the name of their liberty to act irresponsibly. 

There's no discussion about this, at least not among sane adults. Just like washing your hands is not a matter of choice, but basic understanding of hygiene in a civilized society. And the damn distance is not that hard to keep, unless one lives to touch strangers in public places. 

 

Grow the **** up. 

The only controversy is in the fact that an actual hostile propaganda project - that started with the god damn anti-vaccination crap and evolved into encouraging morons into spiteful spreading of SARS-2 - was not contained yet, with legal means any sane country has.

In other words, all of you who are working on spreading the disease should be held legally responsible for the consequences of your propaganda efforts.   

 

Damn children. No offence to the actual children, who understand perfectly why masks and other measures are needed. 

I normally don't agree with anything you say, but this one I'm right on board with. I think one has to be pretty selfish in nature to even think of such a dumb CT.

Gee they made people wear masks. Big win for day ebil gubbermint. That'll show the people whos boss hey........ :wacko:

Edited by psyche101
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Are some people on this thread incapable of discussing anything to do with the mandatory face mask issue without resorting to emotional blackmail, insults and virtue signaling...?

Obviously the whole thing IS controversial but that's no excuse -

 

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8 minutes ago, bee said:

 

Are some people on this thread incapable of discussing anything to do with the mandatory face mask issue without resorting to emotional blackmail, insults and virtue signaling...?

Obviously the whole thing IS controversial but that's no excuse -

 

What mandatory issue?

It's not an issue for normal people who respect others. 

 

What's the big win for dat ebil gubbermint? Gold star? Plushie?

Edited by psyche101
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On 7/19/2020 at 5:19 PM, bee said:

 

Cabbage mask

pic
 

don't laugh... :angry:

it's better than nothing and if someone else is wearing a cabbage leaf you are doubly protected...
(aaaaand you can use a fresh leaf next time you go out )

plus - an added bonus - if someone pees on your face it will just roll off - like water off a ducks back...

:innocent:

That’s honestly better than nothing!

But the ribs on the cabbage could result in a larger splash zone if it’s a solid stream!

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I said it earlier, it is not rocket science.

You are either part of the problem or part of the solution.

The conspiracy theories are 100% part of the extension of the problem. 

 

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This topic is on ABC The Drum right now. They seem quite surprised as well that anyone would be so socially irresponsible in refusing to wear a mask where required.

Edited by psyche101
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9 hours ago, Desertrat56 said:

Which was my point.

I know this is pretty much anathema to Americans but in the rest of the world we do actually know things about countries we don't live in.

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5 hours ago, bee said:

re bolded.... yes and we are only part way through the consequences of that... 

also there are the mental health issues arising from it all.... people scared and lonely - the rise in stress which can weaken the immune system.. people not going to the doctors or hospitals when they should and operations being cancelled ....

Thre's no question the consequences of shutdown have been, and continue to be, horrific in every way imaginable. Had governments and medical officials handled the pandemic differently at the start of it, we would most likely not be in the position we're in. A great deal of the mask controversy, for instance, can be linked to the mixed messages we received early on. Masks will not help, masks might help, masks will help. So which is it? They help (not very much, but they do help), so why did it take nearly six months to mandate the wearing of them? 

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10 minutes ago, psyche101 said:

This topic is on ABC The Drum right now. They seem quite surprised as well that anyone would be so socially irresponsible in refusing to wear a mask where required.

Are they equally surprised that anyone would be so socially irresponsible in refusing to wear a mask during flu season? 

I'm all for the wearing of masks, but have become increasingly angry with the mask shaming that's going on. There are people who cannot wear masks due to underlying physical and/or mental health issues. Yet they are refused entry/service at most public spaces, and when they are allowed in, they often face the wrath of self-righteous mask wearers. That is a form of discrimination that is totally unacceptable and uncalled for. It is also illegal.

One of my grandfathers is an epidemiologist and infectious disease expert, called out of retirement to consult on this latest crisis. He has concerns with the public wearing masks. Fabric masks are pretty much useless and can cause a number of health issues if not washed after every use (disposable masks must be disposed of after every use). And yet, people are not taking proper care to do so. They also do not know how to properly wear (and remove) them, and the vast majority don't even know that they need to be fitted for most of them. I've personally seen people wearing ill-fitting, dirty, or carelessly worn masks more often than I would like. I've even seen nurses not changing their masks as they go from one patient to another.

If we're going to do something, we need to do it right. Otherwise, there's no point to it.

 

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44 minutes ago, Kittens Are Jerks said:

Are they equally surprised that anyone would be so socially irresponsible in refusing to wear a mask during flu season? 

I'm all for the wearing of masks, but have become increasingly angry with the mask shaming that's going on. There are people who cannot wear masks due to underlying physical and/or mental health issues. Yet they are refused entry/service at most public spaces, and when they are allowed in, they often face the wrath of self-righteous mask wearers. That is a form of discrimination that is totally unacceptable and uncalled for. It is also illegal.

One of my grandfathers is an epidemiologist and infectious disease expert, called out of retirement to consult on this latest crisis. He has concerns with the public wearing masks. Fabric masks are pretty much useless and can cause a number of health issues if not washed after every use (disposable masks must be disposed of after every use). And yet, people are not taking proper care to do so. They also do not know how to properly wear (and remove) them, and the vast majority don't even know that they need to be fitted for most of them. I've personally seen people wearing ill-fitting, dirty, or carelessly worn masks more often than I would like. I've even seen nurses not changing their masks as they go from one patient to another.

If we're going to do something, we need to do it right. Otherwise, there's no point to it.

 

Something is still better than nothing. 

The reason why my part of the world did not recommend citizens any masks was to make sure we'll have enough for the professionals who are in constant direct contact with the cases who are definitely spraying loads of virus. Then we saw what's going on in Italy and the recommendations changed to better anything than nothing, make one out of kitchen towel, use a scarf, plastic visor, it'll do. In the meantime, the state (not the free market) made sure the masks are available to everyone.  

Regarding people who have legitimate reasons not to wear a mask, in a sane world, it would be so easy: they don't wear the mask, doesn't matter, since nearly everyone else does. People who can't wear a mask suffer because of the immature idiots who are too special to do what has to be done. 

And there are plastic visors, that don't work ideally, but they still prevent direct spraying, which is better than nothing.   

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26 minutes ago, Helen of Annoy said:

Something is still better than nothing. 

The reason why my part of the world did not recommend citizens any masks was to make sure we'll have enough for the professionals who are in constant direct contact with the cases who are definitely spraying loads of virus. Then we saw what's going on in Italy and the recommendations changed to better anything than nothing, make one out of kitchen towel, use a scarf, plastic visor, it'll do. In the meantime, the state (not the free market) made sure the masks are available to everyone.  

Regarding people who have legitimate reasons not to wear a mask, in a sane world, it would be so easy: they don't wear the mask, doesn't matter, since nearly everyone else does. People who can't wear a mask suffer because of the immature idiots who are too special to do what has to be done. 

And there are plastic visors, that don't work ideally, but they still prevent direct spraying, which is better than nothing.   

I agree that something is better than nothing, and masks should be worn when/where necessary to do so.

I don't, however, buy (at least not entirely) into the argument that masks were not recommended so that shortages for the medical profession could be avoided, especially when (as you mentioned) any kind of face covering would have helped mitigate the problem (at least somewhat). The fact of the matter is that they could not agree on whether or not masks should be worn and sent out a number of conflicting messages as a result. It was, however, good of your government to ensure that masks were available to everyone. It's what all governments should have done.

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46 minutes ago, Kittens Are Jerks said:

I agree that something is better than nothing, and masks should be worn when/where necessary to do so.

I don't, however, buy (at least not entirely) into the argument that masks were not recommended so that shortages for the medical profession could be avoided, especially when (as you mentioned) any kind of face covering would have helped mitigate the problem (at least somewhat). The fact of the matter is that they could not agree on whether or not masks should be worn and sent out a number of conflicting messages as a result. It was, however, good of your government to ensure that masks were available to everyone. It's what all governments should have done.

Avoiding possible shortage really was an important factor - in my part of the world. Until the professionals confirmed cloth coverings are working just fine in everyday communication and once the supply chain was proven to work in high demand situation. (It's fashionable to **** on China, but China made sure my tiny country gets the supplies it ordered, on time. Thank you, China.)

I was pleasantly surprised with three things in my country: distribution and price control and the lack of complete idiots. There was no profiteering and it looks like it will stay that way. And the idiots that are so loud in comment sections on the Internet rarely exist in the reality- people simply put the mask on when entering a shop or bank or bus etc, remove it when they're back in the open, if it's not too crowded, no one is making a spectacle out of it.

It was expected tourism will be the problem, because people didn't come to behave responsibly :D but it turns out our local weddings, funerals and club life are the hotspots. So there are some limitations back on, which will make a lot of brides angry, but it will keep their grandmas alive. And if grandma is still alive, that's one funeral less to spread the virus :D 'scuse my slightly morbid sense of humour.   

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15 hours ago, bee said:

 

Are some people on this thread incapable of discussing anything to do with the mandatory face mask issue without resorting to emotional blackmail, insults and virtue signaling...?

Obviously the whole thing IS controversial but that's no excuse -

 

I'll take you up on it Bee...

I don't see the "controversy" nor do i see it as a violation of anyones rights...

I don't doubt the numbers could be being "fudged" abit,with federal funding being handed out during times of crisis,every corporation behind testing,treating,and/or looking to cure is going to try and have their hands in the cookie jar so to speak...

That said,this is REAL!...

Here in the states we have morons from EVERY background,color,and religion acting like they don't give a damn about anyone around them.

Hospitals in places like South Florida and Texas are completely over run with people in ICU's...places in Texas have already brought in the meat wagons that were in New York in the begining and brought in the army to help out...

Scary thing is,we are in the middle of a brutally hot summer and UV and heat do help slow almost all viruses...yet this one keeps raging here in the States.

What happens when the heat and humidity go away,people stay inside more and get less sunlight producing vitamin D?

I'm not trying to fear monger,i just hope history doesn't repeat itself because of people not giving a s*** about other people.

1918 the first wave wasn't that bad,the 2nd was devastating and the population was much smaller and less crowded together.

It's been over 93 degrees and a heat index over 105 every day in my region since the begining of the month,you think i enjoy wearing a mask lol...no but i do everything i can for my part RIGHT NOW,if we don't get this under control NOW,and it doesn't just burn itself out before "sick season" here in the States...we'll be saying "Horrible New Year" by the time the calenders roll over to January 1.

just my 2 cents...

Edited by CrimsonKing
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12 hours ago, Kittens Are Jerks said:

Are they equally surprised that anyone would be so socially irresponsible in refusing to wear a mask during flu season? 

I seriously doubt it. It's not the same circumstances. People don't die by the thousands in such short time frames with the flu.

12 hours ago, Kittens Are Jerks said:

I'm all for the wearing of masks, but have become increasingly angry with the mask shaming that's going on. There are people who cannot wear masks due to underlying physical and/or mental health issues. Yet they are refused entry/service at most public spaces, and when they are allowed in, they often face the wrath of self-righteous mask wearers. That is a form of discrimination that is totally unacceptable and uncalled for. It is also illegal.

One of my grandfathers is an epidemiologist and infectious disease expert, called out of retirement to consult on this latest crisis. He has concerns with the public wearing masks. Fabric masks are pretty much useless and can cause a number of health issues if not washed after every use (disposable masks must be disposed of after every use). And yet, people are not taking proper care to do so. They also do not know how to properly wear (and remove) them, and the vast majority don't even know that they need to be fitted for most of them. I've personally seen people wearing ill-fitting, dirty, or carelessly worn masks more often than I would like. I've even seen nurses not changing their masks as they go from one patient to another.

If we're going to do something, we need to do it right. Otherwise, there's no point to it.

 

So because some people aren't educated in proper use that means as Bee said, it's a hoax? I don't think so. 

Shaming is human nature. If you don't like it, that won't change squat. I don't have a problem with it when you see posters like this spreading such disruptive nonsense. Sure, perhaps some very small percentage of people are innocent and don't deserve shaming, but if most people did the right thing that might be do much if a problem either. Anti social people who refuse to wear masks where required or refuse to vaccinate totally deserve shaming.

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4 hours ago, psyche101 said:

I seriously doubt it. It's not the same circumstances. People don't die by the thousands in such short time frames with the flu.


I tend not to give too much time here now to people who have a insulting and aggressive attitude.... so let's get the unpleasantness over and done with .....

We will not know how many excess deaths there are due to coronavirus this year until everything settles down more... whatever the speed of infection is..
  

4 hours ago, psyche101 said:

So because some people aren't educated in proper use that means as Bee said, it's a hoax? I don't think so. 

Shaming is human nature. If you don't like it, that won't change squat. I don't have a problem with it when you see posters like this spreading such disruptive nonsense. Sure, perhaps some very small percentage of people are innocent and don't deserve shaming, but if most people did the right thing that might be do much if a problem either. Anti social people who refuse to wear masks where required or refuse to vaccinate totally deserve shaming.


you seem proud of your self appointed role of 'shamer' based on your own opinions and judgements...
but what it amounts to (in this instance ie your comments directed at me on this thread).... is bigotry -

Have I said anywhere on this thread that I have refused to wear a mask - or refused to comply with government guidelines..?

The answer is...... no I haven't....

 

 

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19 minutes ago, bee said:

I tend not to give too much time here now to people who have a insulting and aggressive attitude.... so let's get the unpleasantness over and done with .....

Good old give it but can't take it Bee. :)

Quote

We will not know how many excess deaths there are due to coronavirus this year until everything settles down more... whatever the speed of infection is..
  

The speed of infection is why the masks are necessary. What we do know is people are dying at an unprecedented rate. So perhaps that immediate concern of dead people everywhere over rides the official number. 

Quote

you seem proud of your self appointed role of 'shamer' based on your own opinions and judgements...

You're not all that perceptive. I'd call it annoyed or peed off rather than proud. 

Quote

but what it amounts to (in this instance ie your comments directed at me on this thread).... is bigotry -

Biggoted against irresponsible and selfish jack asses? Sure.

Quote

Have I said anywhere on this thread that I have refused to wear a mask - or refused to comply with government guidelines..?

The answer is...... no I haven't....

Have I accused you of that? The answer is no, I haven't. I objected to your fake pandemic comments and said anti mask CTs are dumb and irresponsible. 

Edited by psyche101
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