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The Face Mask Controversy


bee

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1 hour ago, Cookie Monster said:

I have noticed when I`m around people who get the flu jab that I get sick as a dog.

Flu vaccines aren't always fully effective. They also don't protect against iillness caused by other viruses that cause flu-like symptoms. 

Edited by Kittens Are Jerks
Grammatical correction.
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12 minutes ago, Helen of Annoy said:

In a sane society, where vast majority of adults is responsible, yes.   

Which is why I'm for the shaming. It's the only thing that works with infantile people. Also: plastic visors. 

 Just a few days back i had to go to Walmart to get some meat because my local butcher had already closed,soon as i got within 30 yards of the door some clowns were giving security there fits about their rights...

When i walked out the damn cops had to be called to enforce company rules...

They were still ranting and raving at the cops...

I just walked a big circle around them,about a quarter of them looked as if they hadn't showered in a month so their immune systems were probably very sturdy due to all the dirt...i didn't want to get too close though,they probably smelled like cabbage lol

Edited by CrimsonKing
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2 minutes ago, Helen of Annoy said:

In a sane society, where vast majority of adults is responsible, yes.   

Which is why I'm for the shaming. It's the only thing that works with infantile people. Also: plastic visors. 

Shaming is not the most effective way to change a person's behaviour. But the reason I am most adamantly opposed to it is because, unless we know a person, we don't know why they are not wearing a mask. Shaming them because we've made all the wrong assumptions is extraordinarily unfair and insensitive. What if the person suffers from PTSD or some kind of panic disorder? What if the person can't wear a mask due to past abuse? What right does anyone have to abuse them even further?

People do not have a right to challenge someone not wearing a mask unless that person infringes on their personal space. If someone without a mask gets too close, either ask them to respect the distancing guidelines or remove yourself from the situation. It's that simple.

On the flip side, no one has the right to challenge, or get aggressive with, some one who is wearing a mask. And just like the person who's not wearing one, the person who is doesn't have to justify or explain their decision to do so. It's a two-way street.

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7 minutes ago, Kittens Are Jerks said:

Shaming is not the most effective way to change a person's behaviour. But the reason I am most adamantly opposed to it is because, unless we know a person, we don't know why they are not wearing a mask. Shaming them because we've made all the wrong assumptions is extraordinarily unfair and insensitive. What if the person suffers from PTSD or some kind of panic disorder? What if the person can't wear a mask due to past abuse? What right does anyone have to abuse them even further?

People do not have a right to challenge someone not wearing a mask unless that person infringes on their personal space. If someone without a mask gets too close, either ask them to respect the distancing guidelines or remove yourself from the situation. It's that simple.

On the flip side, no one has the right to challenge, or get aggressive with, some one who is wearing a mask. And just like the person who's not wearing one, the person who is doesn't have to justify or explain their decision to do so. It's a two-way street.

I just never thought we would be having conversations like this during a public health crisis...

I honestly can't help myself when some jack ass walks up and stands right behind me in line...one of us is going to move,and i'm not giving up my spot.

Yes,i'm THAT guy :lol:

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1 hour ago, Kittens Are Jerks said:
 

But they still die by the thousands and hospitalised by the millions. I am fully aware of why/how COVID is different, but someone walking around with the flu is just as capable of killing someone's grandmother. The difference is that we understand the flu. We have had time to research it and develop vaccines and treatments. Out fear at the moment is of the enemy we do not know. 

That's what I said.

It's not the same.

The flu is manageable. It's not rapidly transmitted with devastating results and no effective treatment or vaccine.

These are extreme measures for an extreme situation. Refusing to help stop the spread is refusing a community responsibility. We do what we can until we know more and can do better. Making up CTs about authoritarian control helps nobody. 

I'm still not sure what would be accomplished anyway. Do the government, illuminati, Monsanto, the lock Ness monster (insert CT bad guy here) get to go nyah nyah at the population? What's the big prize? I don't get it.

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Not sure how you went from Point A to Point WTH. People who've not taken the time to learn about proper mask wearing and maintenance or who know but are still careless with them are not protecting anyone, including themselves. They (and the rest of us) are probably better off if they didn't wear a mask at all. That was my point. 

No, we are not better if they didn't wear a mask at all. If some have the attitude that they selfishly don't need a mask, they are most likely to be the careless ones when forced. Not all will be such jerks, but that number is somewhat reduced, and the risk is lowered as more mask.up than would have. They are mainly putting themselves at higher risk. Not those setting an appropriate example. It's not hard. Something is better than nothing, even if some ruin it for others, as long as the majority show an ounce of respect, we have a fighting chance.

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Bee, by the way, never said the virus was a hoax.

  On 7/18/2020 at 5:32 PM, bee said:

 BUT....in my heart I think this is, in essence a fake pandemic, being hyped up as part of a political agenda... it's a nasty virus that a very small % of population can get complications and die from... but I wonder if this is training for a move into more authoritarian rule...

 

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People have a propensity to devalue others they consider a threat to their survival. I get it. Yet unlike you, I have a huge problem with it. 

And you having a problem with it will change things how? 

It's human nature, warts and all. 

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We need to understand that not all people refuse to wear masks for reasons that go beyond the absurd. Many (and the percentage is larger than you think) cannot wear them for very legitimate reasons. There was a patient at the hospital (for example) who had been raped a few years back whilst on a trip to Europe. For her, wearing a mask was a trigger. The mask = the hand over her mouth. Why should she be subjected to even more abuse because of it? Unless the person is having a meltdown screaming about their rights and freedoms, etc., we don't know why a person isn't wearing a mask. Nor do we have a right to know. The appropriate thing to do is keep your distance and say nothing. 

If there weren't people being as unreasonable as anti vaxers, there wouldn't be such an issue overall, it's making an issue that's made it an issue. 

Besides, if someone is living in a high risk area that requires a mandatory mask, wouldn't isolation be a good idea if that's not already enforced by that stage, which it most likely would be? If one has other issues, self isolation sound like good idea at the moment. The whole worlds pretty stressed. Avoiding that sounds more important quite frankly. 

Edited by psyche101
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35 minutes ago, Kittens Are Jerks said:

Shaming is not the most effective way to change a person's behaviour. But the reason I am most adamantly opposed to it is because, unless we know a person, we don't know why they are not wearing a mask. Shaming them because we've made all the wrong assumptions is extraordinarily unfair and insensitive. What if the person suffers from PTSD or some kind of panic disorder? What if the person can't wear a mask due to past abuse? What right does anyone have to abuse them even further?

People do not have a right to challenge someone not wearing a mask unless that person infringes on their personal space. If someone without a mask gets too close, either ask them to respect the distancing guidelines or remove yourself from the situation. It's that simple.

On the flip side, no one has the right to challenge, or get aggressive with, some one who is wearing a mask. And just like the person who's not wearing one, the person who is doesn't have to justify or explain their decision to do so. It's a two-way street.

If a person recognises that they have a disorder that prevents wearing a mask in public, the responsible thing to do is isolate as much as possible until some normality is underway.

Masks are extreme measures in extreme affected areas. It's not like the whole world has to wear one all the time. They are to help contain outbreaks where they happen. If we all do our bit, it won't seem so weird. 

Edited by psyche101
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1 hour ago, RoofGardener said:

Well, you don't need to FULLY understand a virus in order to create an effective Inoculation against it. We didn't FULLY understand cowpox at the time, but that didn't stop us using it to produce an inoculation against Smallpox ?

It's true that we don't have an inoculation against the common cold, but then... how many people die of a cold each year ? It's probably just not deemed worth the effort to mass-vaccinate people against it. After all, we DO have inoculations against the Winter Flue (which is updated every year to take into account mutations). 

You make some good points, but you don't understand why it was possible. The reason they could eradicate Small Pox was because the Virus has, very low mutation factor, simple put when it does mutate the changes are very insignificant, and the same is true for Cow Pox. But, the Flu virus mutates rapidly and the mutations are varying and wide. That's why it has been necessary to make new vaccines every year, not to mention that even though you are vaccinated the virus can mutate and make the vaccine less effective or ineffective for some people. 

The Novel Coronavirus we are now dealing with is also like the Flu, however, this similarity only exists when considering the mutation rate of the two Viruses and nothing else. The biggest problem with COVID19 are the different ways it effects different age groups, the permanent effect it has on some people, permanent lung damage, heart damage, brain damage, liver damage, and Kidney damage. The reason this occurs is because the Virus causes blood clotting in veins and arteries, which break lose and damage the above organs. 

Why, the Doctors don't know yet, why some people have minor problems and others in better health die, they just can't explain it, because they have never seen any other Virus cause the problems this Virus causes, and the way it effects age groups differently. So you can't compare this nasty Virus to anything else because it isn't like anything else.

Take Care

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2 hours ago, CrimsonKing said:

Being a "Corona" type virus,i'm not optimistic about a true vacine...

Maybe atleast something comes along that can help weaken it abit until our immune systems learn to fight it itself.

 

I agree with you, especially for this Virus, Doctors are saying they have never seen a Virus that acts like this one, especially the way way it affects different age groups, and the blood clotting effects, along with the permanent after effects many people are having. So in effect this is nothing like this has ever been seen before. So like you said a vaccine that is effective is going to be difficult to produce. All the talk about new vaccines in my opinion are nothing but a method to help give the general public something to look forward to which helps give people hope and that's about it, in my opinion.

But time will tell, and I hope I am completely wrong.

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Just now, psyche101 said:

If a person recognises that they have a disorder that prevents wearing a mask in public, the responsible thing to do is isolate as much as possible until some normality is underway.

Sure, have them isolate for weeks and months so that you and others can cling to your false sense of security. How about people who don't stick to strict hygiene measures and social distancing. Should they do the responsible thing and stay at home too?

Do you honestly think that those people who are wearing fabric or ill-fitting masks are not potentially dangerous? Fabric masks are not effective in blocking virus particles that may be transmitted by coughing or sneezing. Whilst they might provide some protection, it is nowhere near complete, and people need to be congnisant of that and behave accordingly. A combination of preventaive measures is necessary, and even then, total safety is not guaranteed. Masks are not the panacea people think they are.

Sure the ideal scenario is one where everyone wears masks, maintains good hygiene, and respects social distancing, but that scenario is, practically speaking, impossible. As long as those people who cannot wear masks stay clean and keep a distance, there is no reason why they should have to hole up somewhere until the crisis is over.

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27 minutes ago, Manwon Lender said:

I agree with you, especially for this Virus, Doctors are saying they have never seen a Virus that acts like this one, especially the way way it affects different age groups, and the blood clotting effects, along with the permanent after effects many people are having. So in effect this is nothing like this has ever been seen before. So like you said a vaccine that is effective is going to be difficult to produce. All the talk about new vaccines in my opinion are nothing but a method to help give the general public something to look forward to which helps give people hope and that's about it, in my opinion.

But time will tell, and I hope I am completely wrong.

Well, the Oxford researchers seem VERY confident about their Vaccine. We shall see...... 

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55 minutes ago, Kittens Are Jerks said:

Sure, have them isolate for weeks and months so that you and others can cling to your false sense of security. How about people who don't stick to strict hygiene measures and social distancing. Should they do the responsible thing and stay at home too?

Do you honestly think that those people who are wearing fabric or ill-fitting masks are not potentially dangerous? Fabric masks are not effective in blocking virus particles that may be transmitted by coughing or sneezing. Whilst they might provide some protection, it is nowhere near complete, and people need to be congnisant of that and behave accordingly. A combination of preventaive measures is necessary, and even then, total safety is not guaranteed. Masks are not the panacea people think they are.

Sure the ideal scenario is one where everyone wears masks, maintains good hygiene, and respects social distancing, but that scenario is, practically speaking, impossible. As long as those people who cannot wear masks stay clean and keep a distance, there is no reason why they should have to hole up somewhere until the crisis is over.

Plastic visors!

I know I already seem like I've got Tourette syndrom, shouting "plastic visors" at regular intervals :D but it's how we solved my godfather's issue with masks. He wears his visor.

And something is truly better than nothing. While you're absolutely right that fabric and loose masks can't stop the virus, which is extremely important in the actual hospital environment, some protection is good enough for everyday communication. The idea is to stop direct exchange of droplets - fabric and visors mostly do that.  

 

 

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5 hours ago, Manwon Lender said:

Well I am amazed President Trump has changed his stance, now the President says wearing masks is Patriotic. Well, I could careless why he has back peddled, and I am not going to comment any further.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/nicholasreimann/2020/07/20/trump-calls-mask-wearing-patriotic-tweets-photo-wearing-one/#354f36ae1cbe

All I can say it Wow!!

You Know that is what they told him in order to get him to wear a mask without complaining when he toured that hospital.  Of course he says that now.   Just look at the video and listen to all the stupid comments he makes about wearing the mask and looking good in it.  To me that is proof he is going senile, he always acted like a 5 year old but this was over the top.

Edited by Desertrat56
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3 hours ago, CrimsonKing said:

A few days back i read an article about a German Shepard in South Carolina testing positive for Covid,though i don't believe canines are good carriers.

 

What!? a dog can get tested in South Carolina but sick people in some states can't?

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3 hours ago, Cookie Monster said:

I have noticed when I`m around people who get the flu jab that I get sick as a dog.

You can't blame that on the other person getting a flu shot.  The way it works is that the serum triggers the body (of the person who got the shot) to create anti-bodies that will kill what ever flu strain the shot is for.    They may have symptoms for a bit because that is the way the body signals it is working against an invader.  Maybe, if you share spit with that person, you might get some of the anti-bodies, but I doubt it.

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1 minute ago, Desertrat56 said:

You can't blame that on the other person getting a flu shot.  The way it works is that the serum triggers the body (of the person who got the shot) to create anti-bodies that will kill what ever flu strain the shot is for.    They may have symptoms for a bit because that is the way the body signals it is working against an invader.  Maybe, if you share spit with that person, you might get some of the anti-bodies, but I doubt it.

It does work that way which is another reason I dont trust vaccines, we dont actually know what is in them.

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12 minutes ago, Helen of Annoy said:

Plastic visors!

I know I already seem like I've got Tourette syndrom, shouting "plastic visors" at regular intervals :D but it's how we solved my godfather's issue with masks. He wears his visor.

And something is truly better than nothing. While you're absolutely right that fabric and loose masks can't stop the virus, which is extremely important in the actual hospital environment, some protection is good enough for everyday communication. The idea is to stop direct exchange of droplets - fabric and visors mostly do that.  

 

 

My grandson is required to have a mask and a plastic visor when he goes back to school in 2 weeks.

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1 minute ago, Cookie Monster said:

It does work that way which is another reason I dont trust vaccines, we dont actually know what is in them.

I have a similar trepidation, that is why I have researched how the vaccines work and what is in them.  You could do the same.  Find out which pharmacuetical company makes the vaccine you are interested in and then search for the ingredients of the vaccine.  The ingredients will be different for each company because they hold patents on them.

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32 minutes ago, psyche101 said:

The flu is manageable. It's not rapidly transmitted with devastating results and no effective treatment or vaccine.

The flu is partially manageable. Not that it matters, because the reason I mentioned it in the first place was not to diminish the importance of taking measures to mitigate the current virus, but to illustrate that people also need to be cognisant of other viruses that are just as capable of killing people. 

1 hour ago, psyche101 said:

These are extreme measures for an extreme situation. Refusing to help stop the spread is refusing a community responsibility. We do what we can until we know more and can do better.

I agree, but I will not accuse people who cannot wear a mask of being irresponsible. If they adhere to everything else, they are doing their part, perhaps even moreso than those who are irresponsible with their masks.

1 hour ago, psyche101 said:

No, we are not better if they didn't wear a mask at all. If some have the attitude that they selfishly don't need a mask, they are most likely to be the careless ones when forced. Not all will be such jerks, but that number is somewhat reduced, and the risk is lowered as more mask.up than would have. They are mainly putting themselves at higher risk. Not those setting an appropriate example. It's not hard. Something is better than nothing, even if some ruin it for others, as long as the majority show an ounce of respect, we have a fighting chance.

We are in agreement for the most part. Where we differ has to do with those who cannot, as opposed to will not, wear a mask.

1 hour ago, psyche101 said:

BUT....in my heart I think this is, in essence a fake pandemic, being hyped up as part of a political agenda... it's a nasty virus that a very small % of population can get complications and die from... but I wonder if this is training for a move into more authoritarian rule...

The quote above is Bee's statement not yours in case anyone is confused by it. Bee is not stating the virus is a hoax, just that the pandemic aspects of it are exaggerated.  

And whilst I agree with you that conspiracy theories can be quite harmful under the circumstances, so too can be the misinformation and mixed messages propagated by governments and medical professionals. Obviously opinions and recommendations will change as we continue to learn more about the virus, but they need to get their acts together and stop with the squabbling. They are contributing to the confusion, fear and paranoia, so the emergence of conspiracy theories should come as no surprise to anyone.

1 hour ago, psyche101 said:

And you having a problem with it will change things how? 

It's human nature, warts and all. 

You see it as human nature, I see it as poor impulse control. It's an immature and dangerous emotion.

As for effecting change, that can be accomplished through discussion and education. I teach a course on masks and part of that instruction includes a section on who cannot wear masks and why. I have (since the virus) included a lecture on mask shaming and the potential detrimental effects of it. 

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33 minutes ago, Desertrat56 said:

My grandson is required to have a mask and a plastic visor when he goes back to school in 2 weeks.

In 2 weeks? Damn. In my part of the world kids are free from the middle of June to the end of August, school usually starts on first or second Monday in September. During the first wave schools were closed and kids had Internet and/or TV lessons. Which is how it'll work in case the second wave turns ugly and still goes on in September. It drives parents insane, but when our first wave was stomped out and schools reopened, very few parents were willing to send kids to school, especially when they saw the exact list of rules kids are expected to follow.  

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44 minutes ago, Helen of Annoy said:

Plastic visors!

I know I already seem like I've got Tourette syndrom, shouting "plastic visors" at regular intervals :D but it's how we solved my godfather's issue with masks. He wears his visor.

And something is truly better than nothing. While you're absolutely right that fabric and loose masks can't stop the virus, which is extremely important in the actual hospital environment, some protection is good enough for everyday communication. The idea is to stop direct exchange of droplets - fabric and visors mostly do that.  

I'm sorry Helen but plastic visors are not effective and should only be worn with a mask. Your grandfather is at risk of an infection. The visor would have to wrap around his head and be long enough to provide adequate protection, but even then there's a risk. My brothers had a visor custom made for me. It meets all of the requirements for total protection, but I still wear it with a mask at the hospital. I've seen the studies and read the reports. Fabric masks and visors do not stop the direct exchange of droplets. They might minimise them to a degree, but they do not stop them. I am concerned, as my grandfather is, that they are giving people a false sense of security, and, as a result, they're getting a lot closer to each other than they shoud. I know how stubborn grandparents can be, but please make sure that people keep a safe distance from your grandfather even if you have to beat them off with a stick. 

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10 minutes ago, Helen of Annoy said:

In 2 weeks? Damn. In my part of the world kids are free from the middle of June to the end of August, school usually starts on first or second Monday in September. During the first wave schools were closed and kids had Internet and/or TV lessons. Which is how it'll work in case the second wave turns ugly and still goes on in September. It drives parents insane, but when our first wave was stomped out and schools reopened, very few parents were willing to send kids to school, especially when they saw the exact list of rules kids are expected to follow.  

Usually it is from the middle of August to the end of May, but last term they were out early, and this term they are shortening the hours per day so they have to go from Aug 6th through the middle of June to get the required hours in.  2 days a week in school and 2 days a week at home online.

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47 minutes ago, Desertrat56 said:

My grandson is required to have a mask and a plastic visor when he goes back to school in 2 weeks.

You've got to make sure that your grandson is properly fitted for a mask. Get his pediatrician to help find the size and type of mask that works best for him. As for visors, most tend to be quite flexible and can be adjusted. Try to get it to fit around his face as much (and as securely) as possible, without it being too uncomfortable. Also, and you already know this, he must do his best to keep his hands clean and away from his face. Kids will fiddle with their masks because the masks will get got and uncomfortable (they always do no matter how used you are to wearing them). He needs to know how to safely handle his mask and visor.

Sorry, I'm lecturing, but I'm extremely concerned about how the kids are going to manage. It's a lot to put on them.

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17 minutes ago, Kittens Are Jerks said:

You've got to make sure that your grandson is properly fitted for a mask. Get his pediatrician to help find the size and type of mask that works best for him. As for visors, most tend to be quite flexible and can be adjusted. Try to get it to fit around his face as much (and as securely) as possible, without it being too uncomfortable. Also, and you already know this, he must do his best to keep his hands clean and away from his face. Kids will fiddle with their masks because the masks will get got and uncomfortable (they always do no matter how used you are to wearing them). He needs to know how to safely handle his mask and visor.

Sorry, I'm lecturing, but I'm extremely concerned about how the kids are going to manage. It's a lot to put on them.

We have masks that fit, I found them at Walgreens.  I am making the shield because we can't find a childs size to order that will arrive before the end of September.  I have already  made a prototype and fit it to him but the material is not flexible enough so I have to get a different gauge plastic sheet.

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1 hour ago, Cookie Monster said:

It does work that way which is another reason I dont trust vaccines, we dont actually know what is in them.

You don't know what's in the air your breathe, the water you drink or the food you eat.

Best you stop all 3. For your own safety.

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7 hours ago, RoofGardener said:

Well, the Oxford researchers seem VERY confident about their Vaccine. We shall see...... 

Well, like I said in the post you quoted I hope your right and I am completely wrong.

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