The Face Mask Controversy

[Kittens Are Jerks]

6 hours ago, Golden Duck said:

The general study doesn't cover spread by asymptomatic carriers.  I thought it interesting that carriers could be producing a jet stream of particles.

No it doesn't. At the time of the study it was thought that spread by asymptomatic carriers was rare. We don't as yet know the actual rates of asymptomatic transmission, but some of the confusion has to do with distinguishing between aysmptomatic and presymptomatic transmissions. What we do know is that people without symptoms are indeed spreading the virus, and some studies have suggested that people might be most infectious during the presymptomatic phase.

Edited July 22, 2020 by Kittens Are Jerks
Minor correction.

[Kittens Are Jerks]

14 hours ago, bee said:

hospitals and doctors surgeries have been breeding grounds for virus's being passed on to other people in a vulnerable state of health -
perhaps people will choose to wear face masks more in these settings - especially when they are the ones who have a virus of any kind....

Whenever I have a medical appointment, I will sit nowhere near a crowded waiting room. People should be screened as soon as they check in at reception and given a mask if they're unwell. So yes, hopefully with everything that's happening now, hospitals and clinics will be more vigilent.

As for hospital settings, they're equally unsafe. I was loaned out for a week last month to a rehab hospital affiliated with the hospital I volunteer at. I was mortified by what I saw there. Nurses would get into elevators up to six at a time. They would wear their masks from inside the hospital, outside, and back in again without changing them. They used just one wash cloth when bathing patients (including patients with open wounds/sores). And the cleaners used the same filthy antibacterial cleaning cloths to clean toilets, sinks and patients' bedside tables. The facility itself is clean and absolutely gorgeous, but what went on (in the geriatric rehab wing of all places where patients are the most vulnerable) was shocking. I documented everything, bypassed all levels and went straight to the top with it. All hell broke loose naturally, but the important thing is that they took actionable steps to ensure standards were improved. So you're quite right in questioning the carelessness of professionals who should know better.

 

14 hours ago, bee said:

then it all went pear shaped and I had to have another (emergency) operation (not because of having caught a virus it was complications from the first op...)   and I ended up on life support..

What a terrifying experience that must have been. Glad you were able to get through it.

[bee]

1 hour ago, Kittens Are Jerks said:

Whenever I have a medical appointment, I will sit nowhere near a crowded waiting room. People should be screened as soon as they check in at reception and given a mask if they're unwell. So yes, hopefully with everything that's happening now, hospitals and clinics will be more vigilent.

As for hospital settings, they're equally unsafe. I was loaned out for a week last month to a rehab hospital affiliated with the hospital I volunteer at. I was mortified by what I saw there. Nurses would get into elevators up to six at a time. They would wear their masks from inside the hospital, outside, and back in again without changing them. They used just one wash cloth when bathing patients (including patients with open wounds/sores). And the cleaners used the same filthy antibacterial cleaning cloths to clean toilets, sinks and patients' bedside tables. The facility itself is clean and absolutely gorgeous, but what went on (in the geriatric rehab wing of all places where patients are the most vulnerable) was shocking. I documented everything, bypassed all levels and went straight to the top with it. All hell broke loose naturally, but the important thing is that they took actionable steps to ensure standards were improved. So you're quite right in questioning the carelessness of professionals who should know better.

 

good for you - training and eliminating bad practice is vital within the hospital setting - just really basic stuff can get overlooked... I'm not going to get onto a long thing about everything that went on during the 2 months I was in - or we'd be here all day..   the individual staff were mainly doing their best and worked hard - but a couple of years after I had my operations I found out that a long Serious Incident Report had been put together about me and my stay and to put it in a nutshell - I was dying on the ward under their very noses and nearly did die - and those involved had to have training on certain things and even procedures for emergency operations were looked into... I was the last to find out about all this - and even my consultant at the time (who was the one who printed off the report for me ) said he wouldn't normally advise it but said I had a case to sue the hospital.... I didn't though because I didn't want to go through the whole thing because it would have brought me down and I wanted to move on.... 

When I was in for those 2  months the cleaning regime seemed quite good and they were focused on keeping hospital bugs like MRSA at bay... 

 

1 hour ago, Kittens Are Jerks said:

 

What a terrifying experience that must have been. Glad you were able to get through it.

 

thanks.... it was worse for my friends and family really because I was unconscious for days - if you have spent time in hospital as a patient or volunteer etc you soon realize that often one hand doesn't know what the other is doing and one person says one thing and another says another thing - sometimes the opposite !

The worst example from my stay (to cut a long story short) was when I was on life support and two doctors asked to see my daughter (when she was on her own)...in the office and said that it might be - and I quote.... 'kinder to let her go'......... ie switch it all off... she had to actually argue my case that I would chose to have the chance to live... they said that it was ultimately up to them not her... but at that moment her Dad arrived and between them ----- well as you see I'm still here  ..... THEN my consultant at the time said a few days later... oh no they wouldn't have switched it off - she isn't old and hasn't got cancer.... but who knows !!

To finish off on an amusing note.... apparently when I was unconscious with all the tubes and what not - I looked really healthy with rosey cheeks (for some reason) and my friend said when I was at death's door my appearance was healthier than all my visitors and I looked like a farmer's wife 

 

   

[bee]

15 hours ago, RoofGardener said:

Just in case anyone hasn't already posted this; the UK government have made it mandatory - on pain of fines - for everyone to wear a mask in the UK when in public areas, starting 24th July. 

The idea is not to protect the individual, but to minimise the risk from asymptomatic infected people spreading the disease to others. 

 

do you have more on this... I just tried to find out about it (I haven't seen any MSM news)... because this would be a big jump up from just wearing them in shops (on top of the public transport  and health care settings ruling)

on the government's own site they just say...

https://www.gov.uk/coronavirus

Quote

Announcements

• Millions could be vaccinated against Covid-19 as UK secures strong portfolio of promising vaccines

  Published 20 July 2020

• Face coverings to be mandatory in shops and supermarkets from 24 July

  Published 14 July 2020

• Plans to ease guidance for over 2 million shielding

  Published 22 June 2020

See all announcements[.quote]

Edited July 22, 2020 by bee

[bee]

 

on the subject of 'shaming'

when I was just looking for info I saw this article from the BBC.... 

and it looks like anyone who is exempt from wearing a face mask for any reason - physical or mental - had better just stop at home.. 
and not go on public transport or to hospital etc or shops...if they don't want an embarrassing and upsetting Public Shaming... 

A senior police chief is actually encouraging the public to shame people going without masks....  with no care or reference to people who are exempt and how they can be identified... and not harassed...

Slippy Slope.....???
 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-53498100

Quote

Dame Cressida Dick said she hoped shoppers who refused to wear masks would be "shamed" into compliance.

Officers will attend if people not wearing a mask refuse to leave a shop or become "aggressive," Dame Cressida said.

Thames Valley and Devon and Cornwall police forces say officers will attend incidents only if they turn violent.

But Dame Cressida said if shop keepers were concerned and had "tried everything else", her officers would try to assist.

She told LBC Radio: "Calling the police should be a last resort for dealing with a mask issue. But of course the law is the law.

"My hope is that the vast majority of people will comply and that people who are not complying will be shamed into complying or shamed to leave the store by the store keepers or by other members of the public.

 

Edited July 23, 2020 by bee

[Golden Duck]

5 hours ago, bee said:

 

on the subject of 'shaming'

when I was just looking for info I saw this article from the BBC.... 

and it looks like anyone who is exempt from wearing a face mask for any reason - physical or mental - had better just stop at home.. 
and not go on public transport or to hospital etc or shops...if they don't want an embarrassing and upsetting Public Shaming... 

A senior police chief is actually encouraging the public to shame people going without masks....  with no care or reference to people who are exempt and how they can be identified... and not harassed...

Slippy Slope.....???
 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-53498100

Late eighties - early nineties you could get helmet shamed when cycling.

[Helen of Annoy]

How many people have no ears or have got asthma or phobia of covered mouth? 

Those that have no ears can wear the masks that are tied on the back of the head. 

Those that have serious phobia or asthma will use visor. 

 

And it's slippery slope indeed, because if you let one legitimate phobic go around coughing freely at everyone else, suddenly every adult conspiracist child will claim their phobia of organized society is the legitimate phobic reason to spray their spittle around. 

 

For example, we've got no controversy over here. Masks are mandatory in shops, banks, any public closed spaces. The alternative, visor, exists, so there's no real excuse for anyone to be so special they can't even symbolically do something to lower the chances of spreading the virus.

The very special ones are escorted out and they're - due to lack of understanding for their unique value higher than anyone else's - very rare.   

[Kittens Are Jerks]

11 hours ago, bee said:

To finish off on an amusing note.... apparently when I was unconscious with all the tubes and what not - I looked really healthy with rosey cheeks (for some reason) and my friend said when I was at death's door my appearance was healthier than all my visitors and I looked like a farmer's wife 

So Bee, what's your beauty secret? Bee: Life support!  Your family must shudder every time they think about how close they came to not having their wishes respected by doctors who wanted to drain the colour from your rosy cheeks.

10 hours ago, bee said:

and it looks like anyone who is exempt from wearing a face mask for any reason - physical or mental - had better just stop at home.. 
and not go on public transport or to hospital etc or shops...if they don't want an embarrassing and upsetting Public Shaming... 

A senior police chief is actually encouraging the public to shame people going without masks....  with no care or reference to people who are exempt and how they can be identified... and not harassed...

Slippy Slope.....???

Slippery slope for sure. How extraordinarily irresponsible of her. If the aim is to encourage pandemic-proof behaviours, shaming is not the way to go about it. Shaming as a form of social behaviour control is not only counter-productive, social vigilante or mob justice, aimed at punishing an 'offender' creates a community environment that is not only unhealthy but also potentially dangerous. Why increase hostility in an already volatile environment? Punishment is not the answer, education is.

The following article looks at both sides of the issue. The one comment that stood out is that not everyone participating in the shaming of others is motivated by altruistic goals. They’re doing it because they get to be right and someone else gets to be wrong.

https://www.theguardian.com/science/2020/apr/04/pandemic-shaming-is-it-helping-us-keep-our-distance

And this article, written by an epidemiologist, explains why trying to shame people into healthier behavior doesn’t work—and actually can make things worse.

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2020/06/dudes-who-wont-wear-masks/613375/

No one should be shamed for not wearing a mask, especially those who do not because they can't. The messaging needs to change and those in positions of leadership must acknowledge that we must have some empathy for people. 

[Kittens Are Jerks]

1 hour ago, Helen of Annoy said:

Those that have serious phobia or asthma will use visor. 

The mask-wearing by-law in my city makes it clear that face shields are not an acceptable alternative. Whilst not as effective as masks, I will concede that they are better than nothing. Yet, at the same time, if you encourage some people to wear them in lieu of masks, then others will want to do the same. If that happens, it's crisis all over again.

[Kittens Are Jerks]

6 hours ago, Golden Duck said:

Late eighties - early nineties you could get helmet shamed when cycling.

There was also the condom safe-sex shaming period, which didn't quite go as planned.

https://www.ourwindsor.ca/news-story/10070069-does-public-mask-shaming-work-a-lesson-from-condoms/

[Helen of Annoy]

15 minutes ago, Kittens Are Jerks said:

The mask-wearing by-law in my city makes it clear that face shields are not an acceptable alternative. Whilst not as effective as masks, I will concede that they are better than nothing. Yet, at the same time, if you encourage some people to wear them in lieu of masks, then others will want to do the same. If that happens, it's crisis all over again.

The rare phobics and asthmatics can use visors here. It is officially allowed alternative. I'm fine with that. We'd be fine with rare people wearing nothing at all, epidemiologicaly, but it is their social duty to show symbolic intention to cooperate. 

The perfect is the enemy of good. 

People will do the best they can and it will be good enough. Better than nothing. 

Very special snowflakes - yeah, I'm shaming them right here and right now - will put their inferiority complex above everyone's physical health. Nope. Not in my house. It can be a paper bag on one's head, with holes for eyes, but if we said we're covering our mouths while a respiratory infection is killing people, then we are covering our mouths. Oh, and nose too. It's beyond funny (not to mention incorrect) when people let their nose stick out, above the mask. If they knew just how funny they look, they'd keep their snorkels inside   

 

[Kittens Are Jerks]

5 minutes ago, Helen of Annoy said:

The rare phobics and asthmatics can use visors here. It is officially allowed alternative. I'm fine with that. We'd be fine with rare people wearing nothing at all, epidemiologicaly, but it is their social duty to show symbolic intention to cooperate. 

I would be lying if I said I didn't bristle a little at your "social duty to show symbolic intention to cooperate' comment. If ever there was a statement that moved me to outright rebellion, that would be it. That would be the moment I rip off my mask in utter defiance.

And yeah, I know, that would be the moment you pull a plastic bag over my head and tie it hard around my neck. 

 

 

[Helen of Annoy]

8 minutes ago, Kittens Are Jerks said:

I would be lying if I said I didn't bristle a little at your "social duty to show symbolic intention to cooperate' comment. If ever there was a statement that moved me to outright rebellion, that would be it. That would be the moment I rip off my mask in utter defiance.

And yeah, I know, that would be the moment you pull a plastic bag over my head and tie it hard around my neck. 

 

 

Ah, no. Not that radical, no, no, not even in a joke. 

But that would be the moment when I'd kick you out of the office, so you can exercise your pouting rights in fresh air    

[Duke Wellington]

32 minutes ago, Kittens Are Jerks said:

I would be lying if I said I didn't bristle a little at your "social duty to show symbolic intention to cooperate' comment. If ever there was a statement that moved me to outright rebellion, that would be it. That would be the moment I rip off my mask in utter defiance.

And yeah, I know, that would be the moment you pull a plastic bag over my head and tie it hard around my neck. 

 

 

 

23 minutes ago, Helen of Annoy said:

Ah, no. Not that radical, no, no, not even in a joke. 

But that would be the moment when I'd kick you out of the office, so you can exercise your pouting rights in fresh air    

We have to remember what human nature is like.

People all have differentiated personality types. Some are pro-social, some are anti-social. Some act in the national interest, some focus on what is best for themselves as individuals. Evolution wired our species up this way to ensure its survival.

With coronavirus everyone acting in the national interest is deemed to be good. But if society decided to go and jump off a cliff that same tendency towards following the herd would be bad. We shouldn`t demonise anybody for their decision to wear or not wear a mask, we have to understand that people are all psychologically different and react to different situations differently, its our biology.

The role of the government should be to make everyone aware of the coronavirus risks using the best data to hand. They should make masks and vaccinations available. But it should be up to each person if they use those masks and/or take a vaccination.

Any scenario can emerge going forward. We might find those who didnt wear masks, who got the illness, have immunity from a future coronavirus mutation. A strain even more deadly than Covid-19. But those who were very cautious not to get Covid-19 are all wiped out by the new strain. In this scenario it would have made sense not to wear a mask. The point of me saying this is we shouldn`t fight against human nature to force what society believes is right onto everyone. Or we might get negative consequences back.

Edited July 23, 2020 by Cookie Monster

[Grim Reaper 6]

48 minutes ago, Helen of Annoy said:

Ah, no. Not that radical, no, no, not even in a joke. 

But that would be the moment when I'd kick you out of the office, so you can exercise your pouting rights in fresh air    

There are some crazy people in thread, talk about putting plastic bags over people's heads and tying the plastic bags closed, it almost sounds kind of erotic and frightening to me, now you girls play nice ya hear!!!

[Helen of Annoy]

3 minutes ago, Manwon Lender said:

There are some crazy people in thread, talk about putting plastic bags over people's heads and tying the plastic bags closed, it almost sounds kind of erotic and frightening to me, now you girls play nice ya hear!!!

Hey, it was her idea! You can see I'm resisting the temptation. 

[Grim Reaper 6]

2 minutes ago, Helen of Annoy said:

Hey, it was her idea! You can see I'm resisting the temptation. 

Like I said it just sounds a little erotic, and I do applaud you for resisting the temptation I know how hard that be to do at times.

Take Care, 

[Kittens Are Jerks]

2 minutes ago, Cookie Monster said:

We have to remember what human nature is like.

People all have differentiated personality types. Some are pro-social, some are anti-social. Some act in the national interest, some focus on what is best for themselves as individuals. Evolution wired our species up this way to ensure its survival.

That is why education, moreso than shaming, goes a long way in getting people to cooperate. The right messaging, delivered in the right way, makes a huge difference. 

3 minutes ago, Cookie Monster said:

The role of the government should be to make everyone aware of the coronavirus risks using the best data to hand. They should make masks and vaccinations available. But it should be up to each person if they use those masks and/or take a vaccination.

I agree for the most part, but people need to understand that mandating masks was done out of necessity. Masks, with proper hygiene and distancing, are the most effective means of preventing a health disaster of epic proportions. They are a short-term measure that will make a huge difference in the long run. We must also understand that this particular virus is not one we've experienced before and, as the medical community continues to learn more about it, recommendations for mitigating its spread will change accordingly, and we should respond accordingly. Once the situation is under control, then yes, mask wearing should then be left to individual choice.

[Kittens Are Jerks]

1 hour ago, Manwon Lender said:

There are some crazy people in thread, talk about putting plastic bags over people's heads and tying the plastic bags closed, it almost sounds kind of erotic and frightening to me, now you girls play nice ya hear!!!

Hey, get your mind out of the gutter. 

1 hour ago, Helen of Annoy said:

You can see I'm resisting the temptation. 

That's not true! You've been private messaging me since! 

[Kittens Are Jerks]

2 hours ago, Helen of Annoy said:

Ah, no. Not that radical, no, no, not even in a joke. 

But that would be the moment when I'd kick you out of the office, so you can exercise your pouting rights in fresh air    

But if your statement had been less autocratic, and more compassionate/educational, we would never have had that moment to begin with. And @Manwon Lender would not have needed a cold shower.

[Helen of Annoy]

44 minutes ago, Kittens Are Jerks said:

But if your statement had been less autocratic, and more compassionate/educational, we would never have had that moment to begin with. And @Manwon Lender would not have needed a cold shower.

There's the right and the wrong time for everything.

An epidemics is the wrong time for expecting too much "pretty please" before a particular eternal child feels like gracing the rest of the society with sort of maybe doing that, what has to be done. It's gigantic waste of time and also makes these entitled pains in the ass expect even more fuss the next time you come to beg them to do the same everyone else does without throwing a tantrum.  

 

Would fewer people fall out of moving trains if instead of "do not lean out of the window" there was "please, if you can accept our otherwise unforgivable intrusion in your most precious personal space, if you could not lean too far out the window". 

Uh-huh. 

It should read "Do NOT ****ing lean out the damn window, are you stupid?"

Wait, I've got even better one: "Do lean out the window if you're stupid."   

[Kittens Are Jerks]

1 hour ago, Helen of Annoy said:

An epidemics is the wrong time for expecting too much "pretty please" before a particular eternal child feels like gracing the rest of the society with sort of maybe doing that, what has to be done. It's gigantic waste of time and also makes these entitled pains in the ass expect even more fuss the next time you come to beg them to do the same everyone else does without throwing a tantrum.  

No one said anything about a 'pretty please' strategy. It's all about education, effective messaging, and leading by example. We don't have a mask-wearing culture like some Asian countries, so some resistance to the idea is to be expected. The initial mixed messages about the necessity of masks, coupled with leaders of various countries refusing to lead by example, further exacerbated that resistance. Fortunately, it appears that most people are complying, but what do we do about those stragglers still refusing to cooperate? Calling them stupid is not a solution. One hopes that as mask wearing becomes more of a norm, they might start wearing one as well, but that doesn't solve the more urgent need. 

Here's an example of positive messaging. It hits all the right notes. There's humour, appreciation, confirmation that mask wearing helps the wearer and those around them, and a message of cooperation and teamwork. The only thing I would add is a small dose of reality: COVID KILLS

[Helen of Annoy]

13 minutes ago, Kittens Are Jerks said:

No one said anything about a 'pretty please' strategy. It's all about education, effective messaging, and leading by example. We don't have a mask-wearing culture like some Asian countries, so some resistance to the idea is to be expected. The initial mixed messages about the necessity of masks, coupled with leaders of various countries refusing to lead by example, further exacerbated that resistance. Fortunately, it appears that most people are complying, but what do we do about those stragglers still refusing to cooperate? Calling them stupid is not a solution. One hopes that as mask wearing becomes more of a norm, they might start wearing one as well, but that doesn't solve the more urgent need. 

Here's an example of positive messaging. It hits all the right notes. There's humour, appreciation, confirmation that mask wearing helps the wearer and those around them, and a message of cooperation and teamwork. The only thing I would add is a small dose of reality: COVID KILLS

Generally, yes.

But there's one important detail I don't agree with: pretending that stupidity isn't stupid.

If stupid people's actions were called stupid, there would be at least one stupid leader less to send the wrong, stupid message.

Because he would know by now that everything he does is stupid. He wouldn't believe it, but he would expect to have his actions called stupid. And no one likes that. Which is the point. People must not feel good about doing stupid things. They'll keep repeating them if they do.  

[Kittens Are Jerks]

2 hours ago, Helen of Annoy said:

Generally, yes.

But there's one important detail I don't agree with: pretending that stupidity isn't stupid.

If stupid people's actions were called stupid, there would be at least one stupid leader less to send the wrong, stupid message.

Because he would know by now that everything he does is stupid. He wouldn't believe it, but he would expect to have his actions called stupid. And no one likes that. Which is the point. People must not feel good about doing stupid things. They'll keep repeating them if they do. 

f I were to make an exception to the calling someone stupid rule, it would definitely be on the leadership front. Leaders need to be part of the solution, not the problem, and often the only way to steer them in the right direction is to challenge, even shame, them until they cave. A leader impacts millions more lives than a loser having a mask meltdown at Walmart does. So yeah, if you want call them stupid, I'll provide the megaphone. Or is it MAGAphone? I forget.

[bee]

 

general update - 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-53513026

"Coverings will be mandatory in enclosed public spaces including supermarkets, indoor shopping centres, transport hubs, banks and post offices.

They must also be worn when buying takeaway food and drink, although they can be removed in a seating area.

Those who break the rules could face a fine of up to £100.
 

(cus when you sit down and keep still the virus can't find you.... )

 

interesting snip it ..
. 

"Sainsbury's and Costa Coffee have already said their staff will not challenge or enforce customers who enter their stores. Asda said enforcement was the "responsibility of the relevant authorities".

But Waitrose said it will have staff at the entrance reminding customers of the rule, while Greggs and McDonalds said takeaway customers need to wear masks."