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The Face Mask Controversy


bee

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18 hours ago, Kittens Are Jerks said:

Thre's no question the consequences of shutdown have been, and continue to be, horrific in every way imaginable. Had governments and medical officials handled the pandemic differently at the start of it, we would most likely not be in the position we're in. A great deal of the mask controversy, for instance, can be linked to the mixed messages we received early on. Masks will not help, masks might help, masks will help. So which is it? They help (not very much, but they do help), so why did it take nearly six months to mandate the wearing of them? 


In the UK we told at the beginning that the good quality masks (ie ones that really worked) were being kept back for the front line medical staff - and there were no mandatory rulings on masks at all - but a lot of people (including myself I might add) wore them anyway in shops - and some people went as far as to wear them outdoors which I don't think is necessary unless you can't maintain the distancing that we are asked to do while all this is settling down...

I remember at the beginning of the lockdown when everything was really eerie... roads empty etc and I was very aware of everyone around me because we didn't know how serious it was all going to be or if it was out of a laboratory or not...

even out walking with the dog I remember being downstream to a jogger sweating and breathing heavily and so when I got home I did a steam inhalation with camphor oil and gargled with salt water.... don't know if that would have done anything but I thought it MIGHT kill a virus that had got in and was about to work itself down my throat.. :)

as I have said before I think I had coronavirus in December anyway so I probably have some natural immunity so I have not been overly worried but taken precautions and followed the guidelines anyway...

my own life hasn't been very much affected or changed during the lockdown anyway - and somethings have been really good like getting closer to my daughter who is near to having her first baby.. and as she is in the most vulnerable category I have been her extra support .... and doing a lot of art... especially practicing portraits in acrylic - we had some lovely art programmes on that people could join in with like Grayson Perry's Art Club and Portrait Artist of the Week.. and my garden is the prettiest and best it has ever been,,,

but I know that many people are really stressed out and scared about what's happening ... and have been having a horrible time..

 

  

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5 hours ago, CrimsonKing said:

I'll take you up on it Bee...

I don't see the "controversy" nor do i see it as a violation of anyones rights...


fair enough - and thanks for an 'insult free' post...... :tu:

 

Quote

I don't doubt the numbers could be being "fudged" abit,with federal funding being handed out during times of crisis,every corporation behind testing,treating,and/or looking to cure is going to try and have their hands in the cookie jar so to speak...

That said,this is REAL!...


I think there is growing concern about the accuracy of coronavirus data... (by people who look further than the MSM for info anyway..)

The virus is real - and the main question is how it's tackled so the 'cure' isn't worse (in the long run) that the disease itself..
 

At the beginning of all this we had it drummed into us day after day here in the UK.... that lockdown measures etc were to SLOW DOWN the spread so the NHS could cope...

somewhere along the line the goalposts seem to have moved because the hospitals are coping now and the 7 big Nightingale Hospitals that were built in an astonishingly short time - like 10 days or so - were mostly never used...

I presume had the virus been as serious as first anticipated / projected... the hospitals would have been used - would HAVE to have been used.. 

 

 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NHS_Nightingale_Hospitals

Quote

In March 2020, as the COVID-19 pandemic spread in England, the UK government and NHS England planned temporary large-scale critical care hospitals to provide cover for the projected increase in patients likely to need this type of facility,[1] as part of a wide-scale reorganisation of NHS services to prepare for the pandemic.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

In the event, almost all of the increased demand for critical care was met by expanding capacity in existing hospitals. By June, all the temporary hospitals had been placed on standby. Only two had admitted patients: 54 were treated at NHS Nightingale Hospital London (all of them in April)[6] and just over 100 at Manchester.[7]

In early June, the Department of Health and Social Care estimated the combined set-up costs of the hospitals to be £220 million, and stated that running costs for the month of April (for the five which opened during that month) were approximately £15m

Edited by bee
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There are discussions about Face Masks throughout the world - 

This video (from Sky News Australia) talks about The Face Mask 'controversy'... 

 

 

There is information on face masks 'desperate politicians prefer not to tell'
 

 

The Victorian government’s imposition of face masks merely represents “the state’s stupidity and refusal to speak the truth” on the coronavirus pandemic says Sky News host Andrew Bolt.

Mr Bolt spoke of information which he said, “desperate politicians are not telling you”. “Information that could save your life,” he said. Mr Bolt said coronavirus experts and even the World Health Organisation have said the use of face masks could come with both potential benefits and harms to consider.

Concerns have been raised Australians may feel a potentially false sense of security while masks are worn and may also touch their faces more in adjusting them, possibly heightening the risk of infection. “You fiddle with the mask, you could actually be bringing the virus exactly where it needs to be, near your mouth and nose,” Mr Bolt said. Mr Bolt said "if you wear a mask and still take all the protections you did without one, it may well reduce your risk, a little, of spreading the virus – that's the main thing masks do". "But all of this is actually secondary to the most vital things that our governments should be doing to stop the worst thing about this epidemic ... the worst thing about this epidemic, which is people dying".

 

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Politicians preferred not to tell?

Does that include the Government website saying who should wear a mask where and why? They seem pretty willing to tackle any subject. 

There's no controversy. Either one is selfish and ignorant, putting others at risk or they are not, and will take precautions. The average Australian isn't a complete idiot. Basic measures like wearing it properly and scratching under the mask aren't as big a concern as constant direct exposure. 

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1 hour ago, bee said:

practicing portraits in acrylic

Each to their own I guess

cfp,small,black,off_white,box20,product,

Edited by Golden Duck
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58 minutes ago, psyche101 said:

Politicians preferred not to tell?

Does that include the Government website saying who should wear a mask where and why? They seem pretty willing to tackle any subject. 

There's no controversy. Either one is selfish and ignorant, putting others at risk or they are not, and will take precautions. The average Australian isn't a complete idiot. Basic measures like wearing it properly and scratching under the mask aren't as big a concern as constant direct exposure. 

Exactly! 

I've got nothing to add, just wanted to agree vigorously :D 

 

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Well I am amazed President Trump has changed his stance, now the President says wearing masks is Patriotic. Well, I could careless why he has back peddled, and I am not going to comment any further.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/nicholasreimann/2020/07/20/trump-calls-mask-wearing-patriotic-tweets-photo-wearing-one/#354f36ae1cbe

All I can say it Wow!!

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2 minutes ago, Manwon Lender said:

Well I am amazed President Trump has changed his stance, now the President says wearing masks is Patriotic. Well, I could careless why he has back peddled, and I am not going to comment any further.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/nicholasreimann/2020/07/20/trump-calls-mask-wearing-patriotic-tweets-photo-wearing-one/#354f36ae1cbe

All I can say it Wow!!

I mean, Captain America wears a mask. 

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6 minutes ago, Golden Duck said:

I mean, Captain America wears a mask. 

Who doesn't. It's cool.

 

images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTTK0Me7LAMC7ZfidRw4yn

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34 minutes ago, Golden Duck said:

I mean, Captain America wears a mask. 

Yes he does, but he's a Captain and also a good guy:yes:

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32 minutes ago, psyche101 said:

Who doesn't. It's cool.

 

images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTTK0Me7LAMC7ZfidRw4yn

Wearing masks are becoming very stylish, even mans best friends are getting in on the act, you see what happens when President Trump says it is our Patriotic Duty to wear masks!!!:yes::D

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IMG_0290.JPG

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Just now, Manwon Lender said:

Wearing masks are becoming very stylish, even mans best friends are getting in on the act, you see what happens when President Trump says it is our Patriotic Duty to wear masks!!!:yes::D

IMG_0289.JPG

IMG_0290.JPG

The pet masks are a waste of money, there is no evidence Covid-19 can cross into cats and dogs.

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5 minutes ago, Cookie Monster said:

... there is no evidence Covid-19 can cross into cats and dogs.

 

Quote

We know that cats, dogs, and a few other types of animals can be infected with SARS-CoV-2, the virus that causes COVID-19, but we don’t yet know all of the animals that can get infected. There have been reports of animals being infected with the virus worldwide.

A small number of pet cats and dogs have been reported to be infected with the virus in several countries, including the United States. Most of these pets became sick after contact with people with COVID-19.

CDC

 

Edited by toast
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15 minutes ago, Cookie Monster said:

The pet masks are a waste of money, there is no evidence Covid-19 can cross into cats and dogs.

Your wrong , at this time there is no proof it can pass from pets to humans,  but why not protect them to most people their pets are part of their family. But, here is something to think about Cookie, if animals can catch the Virus from their owners why can't the reverse happen???:yes:

Edited by Manwon Lender
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@Cookie Monster  This is how much people love their pets, check out the pictures below. Are you a good little Cookie Monster, are you doing your Part by wearing a mask, your leader President Trump says it's your Patroitic duty???:D

Even Hamsters and Hedgehogs are doing their part to combat COVID19.:yes::devil:

IMG_0291.JPG

IMG_0292.JPG

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25 minutes ago, Manwon Lender said:

Your wrong , at this time there is no proof it can pass from pets to humans,  but why not protect them to most people their pets are part of their family. But, here is something to think about Cookie, if animals can catch the Virus from their owners why can't the reverse happen???:yes:

A few days back i read an article about a German Shepard in South Carolina testing positive for Covid,though i don't believe canines are good carriers.

 

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3 hours ago, bee said:


fair enough - and thanks for an 'insult free' post...... :tu:

 


I think there is growing concern about the accuracy of coronavirus data... (by people who look further than the MSM for info anyway..)

The virus is real - and the main question is how it's tackled so the 'cure' isn't worse (in the long run) that the disease itself..
 

At the beginning of all this we had it drummed into us day after day here in the UK.... that lockdown measures etc were to SLOW DOWN the spread so the NHS could cope...

somewhere along the line the goalposts seem to have moved because the hospitals are coping now and the 7 big Nightingale Hospitals that were built in an astonishingly short time - like 10 days or so - were mostly never used...

I presume had the virus been as serious as first anticipated / projected... the hospitals would have been used - would HAVE to have been used.. 

 

 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NHS_Nightingale_Hospitals

I don't know about the U.K., but the idea that all the surges of infections across America are not the hoax many here have been making it out to be, should interesting to hear an explanation for, what do you say Bee, how do you explain it??? So many people on this forum accused those of us who recommended wasks of doing so out of fear, now I wonder what these same people ( all Trump Supports ) will have to say now that their fearless leader has back peddled and is now saying masks are the way to go, and that it is even Patriotic to wear one.

Now no one is fooled, everyone knows he is only doing it because America is tired of all the dam foolishness, and because he is behind in the polls,:yes: he didn't wear a mask to satisfy his base, but now he has just as quickly betrayed them, and that makes all the people not wearing masks because of him look like complete fools.:D:D;)  Now, his base can openly see where how quickly he will dump them in the name of Politics, I wonder how the Trump Supporters here who have followed his point of view here are on the forum will explain this betrayal away!!! I for one am waiting to hear their explanations, and I would also like to hear yours Bee!!!:yes:

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9 minutes ago, CrimsonKing said:

A few days back i read an article about a German Shepard in South Carolina testing positive for Covid,though i don't believe canines are good carriers.

 

Both dogs and cats have tested positive, now these animals were owned by people who were infected by the Virus. Currently however, they are saying that they do not know if a Dog or a Cat can transmit the Virus to a Human, so I guess time will tell. I mean let's face it, here we are 6 to 7 into this Pandemic and the top Doctors are still saying we know so little about this viral strain that it could take years to really understand it. So what does say about the real chances of a vaccine anytime soon, if ever,  I mean we still don't have a Vaccine fir the cold do we.

It all comes down to one thing mutations, Vaccines are all dependent upon being able to be modified as mutations occur, the same thing happens with the Flu Virus ever year.

Edited by Manwon Lender
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1 minute ago, Manwon Lender said:

Both dogs and cats have tested positive, now these animals were owned by people who were infected by the Virus. Currently however, they are saying that they do not know if a Dog or a Cat can transmit the Virus to a Human, so I guess time will tell. I mean let's face it, here we are 6 to 7 into this Pandemic and the top Doctors are still saying we know so little about this viral strain that it could take years to really understand it. So what does say about the real chances of a vaccine anytime soon, if ever,  I mean we still don't have a Vaccine fir the cold do we.

Being a "Corona" type virus,i'm not optimistic about a true vacine...

Maybe atleast something comes along that can help weaken it abit until our immune systems learn to fight it itself.

 

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4 minutes ago, Manwon Lender said:

Both dogs and cats have tested positive, now these animals were owned by people who were infected by the Virus. Currently however, they are saying that they do not know if a Dog or a Cat can transmit the Virus to a Human, so I guess time will tell. I mean let's face it, here we are 6 to 7 into this Pandemic and the top Doctors are still saying we know so little about this viral strain that it could take years to really understand it. So what does say about the real chances of a vaccine anytime soon, if ever,  I mean we still don't have a Vaccine fir the cold do we.

Well, you don't need to FULLY understand a virus in order to create an effective Inoculation against it. We didn't FULLY understand cowpox at the time, but that didn't stop us using it to produce an inoculation against Smallpox ?

It's true that we don't have an inoculation against the common cold, but then... how many people die of a cold each year ? It's probably just not deemed worth the effort to mass-vaccinate people against it. After all, we DO have inoculations against the Winter Flue (which is updated every year to take into account mutations). 

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How effective is the flu jab?

The flu vaccine doesn't provide complete protection, but any prevention is better than no prevention, Professor MacIntyre said. "In healthy adults, [the vaccine] should be 60 to 70 per cent effective, which is pretty good," she said.  https://www.abc.net.au/news/health/2018-04-09/when-to-get-the-flu-vaccine/9626610#:~:text=The flu vaccine doesn't provide complete protection%2C but,cent effective%2C which is pretty good%2C" she said.

Pooling the results of these studies showed that TIV was effective at preventing seasonal flu in 59% of adults aged 18-65 years while LAIV was effective in 83% of children aged six months to seven years. Information on other age groups was not available.

It is a well-known fact that current flu vaccines are not 100% effective. They do however, remain the best available protection for groups who are more vulnerable to the effects of seasonal flu such as people aged over 65 years, people with a serious medical condition and pregnant women. https://www.nhs.uk/news/medication/effectiveness-of-flu-jab-studied/

had a question decided to google the answer as above. 

put this up just in case anyone else had the same question. 

 

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1 minute ago, RoofGardener said:

Well, you don't need to FULLY understand a virus in order to create an effective Inoculation against it. We didn't FULLY understand cowpox at the time, but that didn't stop us using it to produce an inoculation against Smallpox ?

It's true that we don't have an inoculation against the common cold, but then... how many people die of a cold each year ? It's probably just not deemed worth the effort to mass-vaccinate people against it. After all, we DO have inoculations against the Winter Flue (which is updated every year to take into account mutations). 

The worst part of this particular virus is the blood clotting and organ damage being found in people who weren't initially hospitalized...

True,but i can't count the number of people i've known who have gotten flu vaccines and yet wind up sick as hell from...the flu.

With so many similair symptoms,it is a bit worrisome for how many people may just skip the doc visit at first thinking it's just a cold or flu and then wind up in the ICU this winter...

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6 minutes ago, CrimsonKing said:

The worst part of this particular virus is the blood clotting and organ damage being found in people who weren't initially hospitalized...

True,but i can't count the number of people i've known who have gotten flu vaccines and yet wind up sick as hell from...the flu.

With so many similair symptoms,it is a bit worrisome for how many people may just skip the doc visit at first thinking it's just a cold or flu and then wind up in the ICU this winter...

I have noticed when I`m around people who get the flu jab that I get sick as a dog.

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10 hours ago, psyche101 said:

I seriously doubt it. It's not the same circumstances. People don't die by the thousands in such short time frames with the flu.

 

But they still die by the thousands and hospitalised by the millions. I am fully aware of why/how COVID is different, but someone walking around with the flu is just as capable of killing someone's grandmother. The difference is that we understand the flu. We have had time to research it and develop vaccines and treatments. Out fear at the moment is of the enemy we do not know. 

10 hours ago, psyche101 said:

So because some people aren't educated in proper use that means as Bee said, it's a hoax? I don't think so. 

Not sure how you went from Point A to Point WTH. People who've not taken the time to learn about proper mask wearing and maintenance or who know but are still careless with them are not protecting anyone, including themselves. They (and the rest of us) are probably better off if they didn't wear a mask at all. That was my point. 

Bee, by the way, never said the virus was a hoax.

10 hours ago, psyche101 said:

Shaming is human nature. If you don't like it, that won't change squat. I don't have a problem with it when you see posters like this spreading such disruptive nonsense. Sure, perhaps some very small percentage of people are innocent and don't deserve shaming, but if most people did the right thing that might be do much if a problem either. Anti social people who refuse to wear masks where required or refuse to vaccinate totally deserve shaming.

People have a propensity to devalue others they consider a threat to their survival. I get it. Yet unlike you, I have a huge problem with it. 

We need to understand that not all people refuse to wear masks for reasons that go beyond the absurd. Many (and the percentage is larger than you think) cannot wear them for very legitimate reasons. There was a patient at the hospital (for example) who had been raped a few years back whilst on a trip to Europe. For her, wearing a mask was a trigger. The mask = the hand over her mouth. Why should she be subjected to even more abuse because of it? Unless the person is having a meltdown screaming about their rights and freedoms, etc., we don't know why a person isn't wearing a mask. Nor do we have a right to know. The appropriate thing to do is keep your distance and say nothing. 

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21 minutes ago, Kittens Are Jerks said:
 

But they still die by the thousands and hospitalised by the millions. I am fully aware of why/how COVID is different, but someone walking around with the flu is just as capable of killing someone's grandmother. The difference is that we understand the flu. We have had time to research it and develop vaccines and treatments. Out fear at the moment is of the enemy we do not know. 

Not sure how you went from Point A to Point WTH. People who've not taken the time to learn about proper mask wearing and maintenance or who know but are still careless with them are not protecting anyone, including themselves. They (and the rest of us) are probably better off if they didn't wear a mask at all. That was my point. 

Bee, by the way, never said the virus was a hoax.

People have a propensity to devalue others they consider a threat to their survival. I get it. Yet unlike you, I have a huge problem with it. 

We need to understand that not all people refuse to wear masks for reasons that go beyond the absurd. Many (and the percentage is larger than you think) cannot wear them for very legitimate reasons. There was a patient at the hospital (for example) who had been raped a few years back whilst on a trip to Europe. For her, wearing a mask was a trigger. The mask = the hand over her mouth. Why should she be subjected to even more abuse because of it? Unless the person is having a meltdown screaming about their rights and freedoms, etc., we don't know why a person isn't wearing a mask. Nor do we have a right to know. The appropriate thing to do is keep your distance and say nothing. 

In a sane society, where vast majority of adults is responsible, yes.   

Which is why I'm for the shaming. It's the only thing that works with infantile people. Also: plastic visors. 

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