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Cookie Monster

Hydroxychloroquine

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Cookie Monster
Posted (edited)

Talking about this drugs ability to cut the number of fatalities due to coronavirus has become a political matter for the anti-Trump brigade where truth has been clearly abandoned. 

Studies are showing it cuts the death rate in half:

https://www.************/news/12028716/coronavirus-patients-trump-hydroxychloroquine-less-die-study/

You have to put in `the sun .co.uk` without any spaces or quotes to get that page.

https://www.henryford.com/news/2020/07/hydro-treatment-study

Edited by Cookie Monster
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seanjo

Sad to think political leanings could be killing people...1:20 in the vid.

 

 

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micahc
Posted (edited)

https://www.detroitnews.com/story/news/local/michigan/2020/07/02/michigan-henry-ford-health-study-finds-hydroxychloroquine-lowers-covid-19-death-rate/5365090002/

"Still, use of the malaria drug became highly controversial.

Doctors at Michigan Medicine, the University of Michigan's health system, remain steadfast in their decision not to use hydroxychloroquine on coronavirus patients, which they stopped using in mid-March after their own early tracking of the treatment found little benefit to patients with some serious side effects."

Edited by micahc
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stereologist

More on why we have to be careful with these results.

https://www.henryford.com/news/2020/07/hydro-treatment-study

Quote

The study also found those treated with azithromycin alone or a combination of hydroxychloroquine and azithromycin also fared slightly better than those not treated with the drugs, according to the Henry Ford data. The analysis found 22.4% of those treated only with azithromycin died, and 20.1% treated with a combination of azithromycin and hydroxychloroquine died, compared to 26.4% of patients dying who were not treated with either medication.

But let's check with this study of remdesivir.

https://www.empr.com/home/news/remdesivir-hydroxychloroquine-improvement-in-clinical-recovery/?utm_source=newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=mpr-dailydose-hay-20200715&cpn=np,pcp_all,nppa,pcp_nppa&hmSubId=iG3gknuKnps1&hmEmail=B_g1xp9bXchE2NpzFd_agzIZDo7e_i8h0&NID=1184830002&c_id=&email_hash=1325f4460235597b0f183e56a3336d8d&dl=0&mpweb=1323-98952-357377

Quote

Additionally,  the mortality rate at day 14 was found to be 7.6% for the remdesivr group and 12.5% for the standard of care group (adjusted odds ratio 0.38; 95% CI, 0.22-0.68; P =.001).

The Henry ford group had 26.4% die without using HCQ.

The remdesivir study had only 12.5% die without using remdesivir.

Unclear why one group had a death rate more than twice the other death rate.

What happens if both drugs are administered?

Quote

Gilead also announced that an analysis comparing clinical outcomes in patients treated with concomitant remdesivir and hydroxychloroquine to those treated with just remdesivir showed that the rates and likelihood of recovery were lower in the group that received concomitant therapy (57% vs 69%, respectively; hazard ratio 0.61 [95% CI, 0.45-0.83]; P =.002); concomitant use of hydroxychloroquine also led to higher rates of adverse events, however an increased mortality rate at day 14 was not observed. The Food and Drug Administration recently issued a safety alert recommending against the concomitant use of remdesivir and hydroxychloroquine.

Not good.

 

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stereologist

The drug HCQ and CQ have been tested on a number of viral agents including: SARS, MERS, COVID-19, dengue, HIV, chikungunya , and possibly others. In all cases it worked in vitro, but has failed to be effective in people. The original observation was that 80 patients being treated for an autoimmune disorder that were taking HCQ were disease free. The question was whether or not the patients were extra careful and avoided being infected due to their compromised state or whether the HCQ was preventing the infection from taking hold. 

That idea was read by Didier Raoult in France who did a quick study and proclaimed it cured all of his patients in Marseille. His work was rejected for a number of reasons and he came back with a larger study which was soon suspected to be faked. Before this happened, the US president saw Raoult's work on FoxNews and proclaimed it a game changer. Raoult went on to a larger study and was discovered to have enrolled children in his experiment which is illegal in France. Suddenly Raoult left France for China and has not been heard from since. 

No studies to date show that HCQ is a cure or works as a prophylactic. Just as remdesivir seems to save a few lives, HCQ might save a few lives. Proper experiments are underway that are blinded, randomized, and placebo controlled. They can show whether or not HCQ does offer a benefit. Even if it does it appears it will not be anything other than a last ditch effort. Hopefully, a drug can be discovered that is far more efficacious.

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tmcom

 

I am surprized that Australia is taking it on, but good to hear.

Promising results from France, and other countries, but as same have said some do have side affects from this, but most do not.

I have also heard that this with Zink and another drug can increase success rates up to 70%!

:P

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Raptor Witness

The theory behind this drug is sound, especially when plasma levels of zinc are high enough. So you must have adequate zinc stores for this to be effective. It’s true that it also must be given early, because it prevents replication of the virus, however if the viral load peaks, before the drug is given, then it may actually do more harm than good. Then it might be better switching to the anti-inflammatory, steroid treatment.

The sad thing is, there’s very little truth in the liberal media markets, about this. These venomous liberal snakes, would rather hurt Trump, then tell the simple truth about what is a conceptually sound idea. MSNBC are the chief snakes involved in this.

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stereologist
1 hour ago, tmcom said:

 

I am surprized that Australia is taking it on, but good to hear.

Promising results from France, and other countries, but as same have said some do have side affects from this, but most do not.

I have also heard that this with Zink and another drug can increase success rates up to 70%!

:P

No tests show it works. Where do you get success from a drug that doesn't work?

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stereologist
10 minutes ago, Raptor Witness said:

The theory behind this drug is sound, especially when plasma levels of zinc are high enough. So you must have adequate zinc stores for this to be effective. It’s true that it also must be given early, because it prevents replication of the virus, however if the viral load peaks, before the drug is given, then it may actually do more harm than good. Then it might be better switching to the anti-inflammatory, steroid treatment.

The sad thing is, there’s very little truth in the liberal media markets, about this. These venomous liberal snakes, would rather hurt Trump, then tell the simple truth about what is a conceptually sound idea. MSNBC are the chief snakes involved in this.

The theory is a failure. Testing shows that HCQ does not work. Zinc is always tossed into the play as if that means anything. 

You seem to have a lot of comments without anything to back up your story. 

Here is what HCQ fails to do: "prevents replication of the virus". That is known.

You've posted what appears to be a bunch of hooey nonsense. Care to provide evidence other than more off the cuff remarks?

 Your claim of "conceptually sound idea" is completely without merit. There is nothing to HCQ but snake oil.

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stereologist

tmcom it is rather unfortunate that quite a few tested drugs including HCQ have not worked out. Hundreds of drugs are being tested. I see lots of reports of drugs that are being dropped from the list of hopeful drugs every day. Fortunately there is a wide range of possible drugs to choose from. There are quite a few tests still going on to test the efficacy of HCQ. The suggestion that it might help some and kill others has been reported in what are known as retrospectives. People look at outcomes and see what happened. There are plenty of variables out there but they look at only one or a few at best. It is not possible for the researcher doing the retrospective to make a definitive claim. They can only report what they see. 

Here is the reason why. Maybe the reason is that patients receiving a treatment rather than not the treatment were healthier when they arrived. Maybe the really sick ones were not given the same care since they were expected to die. Maybe the people were assigned to receive the treatment because they were not in a high risk group or they were. Maybe it was a different staff that did other things that aided in their recovery. 

That's why blinded experiments are done. It prevents the situation where an umpire has to decide if their own child was safe or not. It eliminates or reduces that bias. Placebo controlled means comparing a treatment against doing nothing. The researcher has no idea if they are administering a drug or a sugar pill. Randomization prevents a researcher from putting only select subjects into a part of the experiment.

The goal is to reduce bias and wishful thinking as much as possible.

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lightly
3 hours ago, tmcom said:

 

Promising results from France, and other countries, but as same have said some do have side affects from this, but most do not.

I have also heard that this with Zink and another drug can increase success rates up to 70%!

:P

I was reading about that yesterday.....when checking on my winter hospital/oncologist.   .

...a Dr. George Fareed  at  Pioneers Memorial Hospital  in  Brawley California. ...is claiming good success with what you mention^.  .when given early enough in a case.   And he and his staff use it as a preventative measure ...none have gotten covid ,though they work in the thick of it.    He wrote to President Trump about his successes. ..              ??????

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stereologist
26 minutes ago, lightly said:

I was reading about that yesterday.....when checking on my winter hospital/oncologist.   .

...a Dr. George Fareed  at  Pioneers Memorial Hospital  in  Brawley California. ...is claiming good success with what you mention^.  .when given early enough in a case.   And he and his staff use it as a preventative measure ...none have gotten covid ,though they work in the thick of it.    He wrote to President Trump about his successes. ..              ??????

I didn't find anything online about this.

Here is a link to all of the testing being done in clinical trials using HCQ to deal with COVID-19

https://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/results?cond=Covid19&term=hydroxychloroquine&cntry=&state=&city=&dist=

There are 239 clinical trials. Many are active. Many have been terminated or suspended. They are taking place across the globe. Many of these are dealing with the notion of HCQ as a prophylactic drug. The only double blinded, placebo controlled randomized trial found that it does not work as a post exposure prophylactic.

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ian hacktorp

Dang.  Well, it's a good thing we have HCQ+zinc, which works exceedingly well and doesn't come with all of these nasty, vaccine-type side-effects:

Moderna COVID-19 vaccine induced adverse reactions in 'more than half' of trial participants

Quote

A highly anticipated clinical trial for a potential COVID-19 vaccine managed in part by the American drug company Moderna has resulted is some adverse effects in more than half of the trial's participants, with one test group reporting "severe" symptoms

The trial, which is also being sponsored by the National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases, administered the vaccine "as a 0.5-ml injection in the deltoid muscle" in two shots spaced about one month apart. Two separate groups received 25-microgram and 100-microgram doses, respectively. A third group with a 250-microgram dose was subsequently added.

https://justthenews.com/nation/science/moderna-covid-19-vaccine-induced-adverse-reactions-more-half-trial-participants?utm_source=justthenews.com&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=external-news-aggregators

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stereologist
45 minutes ago, hacktorp said:

Dang.  Well, it's a good thing we have HCQ+zinc, which works exceedingly well and doesn't come with all of these nasty, vaccine-type side-effects:

Moderna COVID-19 vaccine induced adverse reactions in 'more than half' of trial participants

https://justthenews.com/nation/science/moderna-covid-19-vaccine-induced-adverse-reactions-more-half-trial-participants?utm_source=justthenews.com&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=external-news-aggregators

Too bad HCQ is an utter failure and has never been of value other than killing some patients.

Let's find out what lies comrade hacktorp the communist posted.

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/coronavirus-vaccine-moderna-final-phase-testing/

Quote

There were no serious side effects. But more than half the study participants reported flu-like reactions to the shots that aren't uncommon with other vaccines — fatigue, headache, chills, fever and pain at the injection site. For three participants given the highest dose, those reactions were more severe; that dose isn't being pursued.

Nothing but a lying scum source of trash used by hacktorp who prefers reporting form neo-communist sources.

https://www.latimes.com/science/story/2020-07-14/clinical-trial-results-indicate-moderna-vaccine-is-on-the-right-track

Quote

The results of the peer-reviewed study “are promising, and they support continued development of this vaccine,” Dr. Penny Heaton, chief executive of the Bill and Melinda Gates Medical Research Institute, wrote in an editorial for the journal. “However, we must bear in mind the complexity of vaccine development and the work still to be done before COVID-19 vaccines are widely available.”

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/health/2020/07/14/modernas-covid-vaccine-candidate-appears-safe-effective-data-shows/5435723002/

Quote

All the reactions in the two lower dose groups were mild: More than half suffered minor fatigue, chills, headache or muscle pain, as is typical with vaccines. Three of those who received the highest dose had a severe reaction after the second shot, according to the study, including one participant whose fever spiked to 103.

The highest dose, 250 micrograms, was dropped from later stage trials, and only the 100-microgram dose will be proposed for use in people.

 

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stereologist

Too bad HCQ doesn't work. Then again too bad no drugs have worked on COVID-19.

To date the only drug that has shown efficacy is remdesivir and it offers only a reduced hospitalization time.

Lopinavir and ritonavir have been inconclusive.

Many other drugs have been dropped from testing as initial results reveal their failure to be effective.

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lightly
Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, stereologist said:

I didn't find anything online about this.

Here is a link to all of the testing being done in clinical trials using HCQ to deal with COVID-19

https://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/results?cond=Covid19&term=hydroxychloroquine&cntry=&state=&city=&dist=

There are 239 clinical trials. Many are active. Many have been terminated or suspended. They are taking place across the globe. Many of these are dealing with the notion of HCQ as a prophylactic drug. The only double blinded, placebo controlled randomized trial found that it does not work as a post exposure prophylactic.

Ya, I dunno.   Those are studies of HCQ being used . .alone?    Dr. Fareed claims to be getting good results when mixing it with zinc. (and something else) .  He says it has been reducing the severity of cases, when used EARLY enough....thereby saving lives.

i found out about his work by accident...checking on covid cases at Pioneer Memorial Hospital.   It surprised me because I recognized him on the website....from remembering a picture of him on the wall there at the hospital...on my last visit in April.   I dunno if he knows what he's talking about....but he seems pretty convinced that the treatments reduce the severity of cases enough to keep many people out of a hospital bed.  

 The entire Imperial Valley has been hit hard because the virus is being brought across the border by some 12,000 farm workers crossing the border daily from Mexico....many specifically from Mexicali and surrounding area...which has had a catastrophic outbreak.   Imperial Valley has hundreds and hundreds of square miles of crops to pick and harvest..  ...white people can't seem to do it...they pass out from the heat.:P

 

Edited by lightly

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stereologist
3 minutes ago, lightly said:

Ya, I dunno.   Those are studies of HCQ being used . .alone?    Dr. Fareed claims to be getting good results when mixing it with zinc. (and something else) .  He says it has been reducing the severity of cases, when used EARLY enough....thereby saving lives.

i found out about his work by accident...checking on covid cases at Pioneer Memorial Hospital.   It surprised me because I recognized him on the website....from remembering a picture of him on the wall there at the hospital...on my last visit there in April.   I dunno if he knows what he's talking about....but he seems pretty convinced that the treatments reduce the severity of cases enough to keep many people out of a hospital bed.  

 The entire Imperial Valley has been hit hard because the virus is being brought across the border by some 12,000 farm workers crossing the border daily from Mexico....many specifically from Mexicali and surrounding area...which has had a catastrophic outbreak.   Imperial Valley has thousands of square miles of crops to pick and harvest..  

 

If you look through them you will HCQ for various purposes. Then HCQ with other drugs.

Fareed is doing what is known as a retrospective. He tries something and sees how it goes. He isn't doing a test. 

In a real test he would be blinded. He would not know if he was given a treatment or a placebo. Everything would look the same. It's human nature to see good results. He wants to help his patients and could very well believe that things are working out even if they are not. As I have suggested there is a problem with a referee when their own child is being called on an infraction or the outcome of a play. That's normal.  Researchers accept this and therefore blind their work. Randomization is also crucial. Maybe subjects are assigned to categories of the trial that make it more likely to get a positive result. That is avoided by randomizing the assignments and other aspects of the experiment. 

Take a quick look at the experiments. Choose 100 at a time to see lots of things at once instead of the default 10.

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Desertrat56

It still seems like people don't understand that you do not use drugs to "cure" a virus.  If you have a virus the only reason drugs are used is to help the body survive (like oxygen to help you breathe, or some asthma steroid that helps open the air ways), but nothing cures ANY virus, your body has to create the anti-bodies to klil it.  If you have a strong immune system you usually, (I said usually) don't die from a virus.  And usually if someone dies when they have a virus, if the virus is blamed it is complications due to the virus, like pneumonia or a secondary infection. 

The whole purpose of a vaccine to fight against a virus is to trigger your body to create the correct anti-bodies so that when you come in contact with that virus your body has the ammunition to keep it from getting a foothold.  Otherwise anything you take after you get the virus is just palliative.

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stereologist
1 hour ago, Desertrat56 said:

It still seems like people don't understand that you do not use drugs to "cure" a virus.  If you have a virus the only reason drugs are used is to help the body survive (like oxygen to help you breathe, or some asthma steroid that helps open the air ways), but nothing cures ANY virus, your body has to create the anti-bodies to klil it.  If you have a strong immune system you usually, (I said usually) don't die from a virus.  And usually if someone dies when they have a virus, if the virus is blamed it is complications due to the virus, like pneumonia or a secondary infection. 

The whole purpose of a vaccine to fight against a virus is to trigger your body to create the correct anti-bodies so that when you come in contact with that virus your body has the ammunition to keep it from getting a foothold.  Otherwise anything you take after you get the virus is just palliative.

I basically agree although there will be a few that will point out the few virus that will likely kill such as smallpox, or ebola, but of course there are exceptions to everything in biology.

In the case of COVID-19 we are pretty much seeing this scenario played out. :tu:

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tmcom
8 hours ago, lightly said:

I was reading about that yesterday.....when checking on my winter hospital/oncologist.   .

...a Dr. George Fareed  at  Pioneers Memorial Hospital  in  Brawley California. ...is claiming good success with what you mention^.  .when given early enough in a case.   And he and his staff use it as a preventative measure ...none have gotten covid ,though they work in the thick of it.    He wrote to President Trump about his successes. ..              ??????

Good evidence from Studies, show that this works, and should be adopted worldwide, (minus the other thing) and sure it has side affects in some, but if you have the choice between throwing up or dying, pretty easy choice!

As for Phar, companies killing the studies since it will affect their overall insane profits, (vaccine) or putting profits ahead of lives, the last 50 years is enough!

B)

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stereologist
7 hours ago, tmcom said:

Good evidence from Studies, show that this works, and should be adopted worldwide, (minus the other thing) and sure it has side affects in some, but if you have the choice between throwing up or dying, pretty easy choice!

As for Phar, companies killing the studies since it will affect their overall insane profits, (vaccine) or putting profits ahead of lives, the last 50 years is enough!

B)

HCQ doesn't work. Please show us what evidence there is that HCQ works.

Show us the studies. This has nothing to do with "insane profits".  Vaccines are not money makers which is why companies in general do not do vaccines.

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stereologist

The video above mentions at least two studies. The person does not appear to understand that the Henry Ford study is a retrospective study in which the authors even state this is a study that requires a proper follow up. The person pretends this is not being promoted. It is being properly promoted within the scientific arena. People like that commentator need to understand the limitations of such studies. 

Here is the other study the person mentions.

https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s11606-020-05983-z

It is another retrospective study. Their conclusions are listed below.

Quote

Among patients with COVID-19, older age, male sex, hypotension, tachypnea, hypoxia, impaired renal function, elevated D-dimer, and elevated troponin were associated with increased in-hospital mortality and hydroxychloroquine use was associated with decreased in-hospital mortality.

Here are some of their results.

Quote

Compared with that of ambulatory patients, a higher proportion of hospitalized patients were older, were male, or had a history of cigarette use. Hospitalized patients were more likely to have coexisting medical conditions including asthma, chronic obstructive pulmonary disease (COPD), hypertension, obesity, diabetes mellitus (DM), chronic kidney disease (CKD), and cancer.

And this is the same as what was stated by the Henry Ford study.

Quote

Due to the inherent limitations of our retrospective study design, there was no conclusive determination on the efficacy of hydroxychloroquine in patients with COVID-19. More robust studies such as randomized clinical trials are needed.

This is one of the studies being pushed in that video. Obviously, that guy never ever read the articles but is making unwarranted claims about the studies.

 

This is a well written scientific article which expressly states what can be derived from the results. That is what good scientists do.

Quote

Our study has several limitations. First, we have no long-term follow up data for ambulatory and discharged patients; hence, the clinical outcome observed may not be reflective of the true eventual outcome, particularly in the ambulatory group. Second, we have patients who remained hospitalized at the time of our analyses and did not have our outcomes, such as discharge or mortality, and were excluded for our comparison of survivors and non-survivors. Third, due to limitations and local testing policy during the study duration, there are an unknown number of patients who were not diagnosed with COVID-19 because of a lack of severe symptoms and/or hospitalization. Fourth, we are not able to adjust for unknown confounders that may affect the true treatment effect. These limitations prevent any definitive conclusions on the efficacy of any treatment.

Everyone pushing the results of a paper need to look for these limitations. And if they are not expressly and well stated as this article has done then they need to understand that these limitations exist.

 

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stereologist

The video makes some absurd and illogical statements around 2:30 mark. That person, new to me, is a charlatan in this video.

His numbers are useless measures. His suggestion that a treatment not used is the cause is nonsense. I stopped at that point because I expected even stupider commentary after that.

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Desertrat56
Posted (edited)
13 hours ago, stereologist said:

I basically agree although there will be a few that will point out the few virus that will likely kill such as smallpox, or ebola, but of course there are exceptions to everything in biology.

In the case of COVID-19 we are pretty much seeing this scenario played out. :tu:

The principal is still the same, and I am not sure Ebola is a virus, will have to look that up.  The vaccine we got as children (unless you are under the age of 30 something) for smallpox is what almost eradicated it.  It can turn up, I think it has recently (last 20 years) but it is not an epidemic because everyone has the antibodies to fight it.  Vaccines cause your body to create anti-bodies.  If the population around the world is vaccinated then the virus has no way to propagate and will eventually disappear as in the case of small pox.

OK.  Ebola is a virus, but it is not eradicated like small pox.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ebola

"Control of outbreaks requires coordinated medical services and community engagement.  his includes rapid detection, contact tracing of those who have been exposed, quick access to laboratory services, care for those infected, and proper disposal of the dead through cremation or burial...."

 

 

Edited by Desertrat56

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