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eight bits

On not needing God to be good

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third_eye

....but Isn't that what it was also said that Jesus was saying all this time all those years ago...? 

~

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Stubbly_Dooright

I would tend to agree that more educated Are going to come to the conclusion you don’t need God to be moral. As for the wealthy, yeah we are wealthy the more you’ll have a better education, but sometimes I say the opposite. And, it could be a biased education as well.

It makes me wonder of those who like to experiment and see how those who believe in God and how they behave and see if it actually is true and those who don’t believe in God and how they behave and see how that comes out. (I think those who are more educated would come to this type of consideration, but that would be me in my subjective opinionated thinking)

I wander at those who could have this type of experimental assumption, could see what I see in various situations. My conclusion would be, not all believers actually behave morally and that not all nonbelievers don’t behave morally. I think, as time goes by in this world more people are seeing the connection or the lack there of.

if there’s going to still be people who think you need God to be moral, why is it so many people believe in God don’t act so moral?

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Sherapy
3 hours ago, eight bits said:

Just out yesterday:

https://www.pewresearch.org/global/2020/07/20/the-global-god-divide/

It's a long read as web things go. As an American, the eye-catcher for me was that a majority of Americans surveyed now agree with most of the rest of the developed west: Yeah, you don't need God to be a good person.

But there's lots more in the results for folks around the globe.

Pew is a high-quality polling organization - all polls have their limits, but Pew's work is consistently best-practice combined with straight reporting of the results. They are a gem.

It seems in my experience working with kids and the elderly that at a certain point in ones life that the god construct either gets a major haul over or is outgrown all together. Of course, there are those few that develop a fixed mindset about all things god. It is interesting to see that what I observe on a small scale is a fair representation, according to pew. I am not gonna be shocked to see this current god construct gather dust. 

 

Good find, Paul.
 

 

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Sherapy
36 minutes ago, Stubbly_Dooright said:

I would tend to agree that more educated Are going to come to the conclusion you don’t need God to be moral. As for the wealthy, yeah we are wealthy the more you’ll have a better education, but sometimes I say the opposite. And, it could be a biased education as well.

It makes me wonder of those who like to experiment and see how those who believe in God and how they behave and see if it actually is true and those who don’t believe in God and how they behave and see how that comes out. (I think those who are more educated would come to this type of consideration, but that would be me in my subjective opinionated thinking)

I wander at those who could have this type of experimental assumption, could see what I see in various situations. My conclusion would be, not all believers actually behave morally and that not all nonbelievers don’t behave morally. I think, as time goes by in this world more people are seeing the connection or the lack there of.

if there’s going to still be people who think you need God to be moral, why is it so many people believe in God don’t act so moral?

Great question, my sister a believer is just not motivated by moral concerns, she wasted her life and took advantage of opportunities along the way and has now painted herself into a corner. She needs the unconditional support of a god construct just to live with herself, just to tolerate the reflection she sees glaring back at her in the mirror. 
 

Truthfully, I don’t see how her beliefs have helped her be a moral person. If she is caught lying, she just lies more etc. etc. 



 


 


 

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Stubbly_Dooright
1 hour ago, Sherapy said:
2 hours ago, Stubbly_Dooright said:

I would tend to agree that more educated Are going to come to the conclusion you don’t need God to be moral. As for the wealthy, yeah we are wealthy the more you’ll have a better education, but sometimes I say the opposite. And, it could be a biased education as well.

It makes me wonder of those who like to experiment and see how those who believe in God and how they behave and see if it actually is true and those who don’t believe in God and how they behave and see how that comes out. (I think those who are more educated would come to this type of consideration, but that would be me in my subjective opinionated thinking)

I wander at those who could have this type of experimental assumption, could see what I see in various situations. My conclusion would be, not all believers actually behave morally and that not all nonbelievers don’t behave morally. I think, as time goes by in this world more people are seeing the connection or the lack there of.

if there’s going to still be people who think you need God to be moral, why is it so many people believe in God don’t act so moral?

Great question, my sister a believer is just not motivated by moral concerns, she wasted her life and took advantage of opportunities along the way and has now painted herself into a corner. She needs the unconditional support of a god construct just to live with herself, just to tolerate the reflection she sees glaring back at her in the mirror. 
 

Truthfully, I don’t see how her beliefs have helped her be a moral person. If she is caught lying, she just lies more etc. etc. 

 

I think about your sister, I feel so sad. I’m sorry. :(  

I wonder though, about guilt and living with it and how believers and nonbelievers do that. I am thinking about what you said about your sister, and then I’m thinking about me when I have it and how I deal with it.

I feel, I need my belief, yet I need it to help me repair, do what I need to do, and at the same time keep me from going crazy from the guilt I have inside me. 
I guess this is maybe a stupid question, possibly something I should know better about, but my speculation on nonbelievers in guilt how they deal with it. I try to speculate during my atheist years and then I remember something. I try not to do the things that causes me to be in situations where I’m going to feel the consequences of my actions and at the same Time also get the massive amount of guilt. I guess, I can’t deal with the guilt if I am a non-believer. 
but that’s my speculations on a very subjective, very faulted, very more than likely a cowardly way of looking at it. I will look at that and I will admit  it’s probably wrong I’m thinking and behaving this way. But to avoid it, I tried to not do it.

With my belief now, I like to think I still behave that way but feel my belief will help me make amends and help my guilt at the same time. Is that better for me than it was in the past? I don’t know. But, I think this makes a great thought-provoking reflection, at least just for me to think about.

i’m not sure what is the best when considering your sister, I know You use her as an example but I feel Hope that there is something in her to help herself and to her to Also help others in the future.

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Will do

 

5 hours ago, eight bits said:

you don't need God to be a good person.

 

But then again:

"None is good but God"

 

 

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XenoFish

Need god, don't need god to be moral. Doesn't matter. We're all going to die anyway.

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Stubbly_Dooright
1 hour ago, Will do said:
7 hours ago, eight bits said:

you don't need God to be a good person.

 

But then again:

"None is good but God"

Well, that kind of doesn't make sense to me. God, to me, is not an objective and provable entity. It is more than likely, the way I see it, that God doesn't exist. If we consider that, than your point means, nothing is good at all. Then, if there is no good, why did the word and it's definition come to be? 

But, wait, there's more!!! You have to consider the many different point of views and tastes, and how each individual sees good and bad, and it makes a whole lot of sense, when actual, objective, and provable things are considered good and bad. 

You see what I am saying here?!?! It's a clearer way of your phrase, well at least the way I see it. 

So much is good, but you can't count God, because it might not be there to be considered to be good. 

Let's get logical here, Will. ;)  :tu:  

Hey! Wait a minute!! I found another way to see how one can be moral without God. Moral is actual so it's logical that it can be good. God is not something to be seen as actually, so how can you consider it to be the guiding point to good morals? I mean, do you still expect those presents under the tree to be from Santa?!?! :w00t:  

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Stubbly_Dooright
1 hour ago, XenoFish said:

Need god, don't need god to be moral. Doesn't matter. We're all going to die anyway.

If that doesn't simplify things, I don't know what else can be said! 

Seriously though, No matter how one can consider what lays beyond, there's not definite to it, and yes, we all will logically die. I sometimes feel it's all a waste, but sometimes, to me, it's the little things. ;)  

If that makes sense. 

(Sorry, I'm in a little weird place right now. And I ran out of moscato too. :angry: :alien: ) 

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XenoFish
10 minutes ago, Stubbly_Dooright said:

If that doesn't simplify things, I don't know what else can be said! 

Seriously though, No matter how one can consider what lays beyond, there's not definite to it, and yes, we all will logically die. I sometimes feel it's all a waste, but sometimes, to me, it's the little things. ;)  

If that makes sense. 

(Sorry, I'm in a little weird place right now. And I ran out of moscato too. :angry: :alien: ) 

There just seems like so much superficial nonsense. Be a good person regardless of beliefs, do the right thing, all that jazz. If a person's god approves so be it, if it doesn't then it's probably not a god with paying much attention to. Even without god, don't be a prick. Not that difficult. Be good and be responsible for what you do. It isn't rocket surgery.

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Stubbly_Dooright
3 minutes ago, XenoFish said:
15 minutes ago, Stubbly_Dooright said:

If that doesn't simplify things, I don't know what else can be said! 

Seriously though, No matter how one can consider what lays beyond, there's not definite to it, and yes, we all will logically die. I sometimes feel it's all a waste, but sometimes, to me, it's the little things. ;)  

If that makes sense. 

(Sorry, I'm in a little weird place right now. And I ran out of moscato too. :angry: :alien: ) 

There just seems like so much superficial nonsense. Be a good person regardless of beliefs, do the right thing, all that jazz. If a person's god approves so be it, if it doesn't then it's probably not a god with paying much attention to. Even without god, don't be a prick. Not that difficult. Be good and be responsible for what you do. It isn't rocket surgery.

I agree with you. You're right. Just be a good person. I think, that makes perfect sense. And, I'm not being snarky about it. What gets me, and I say this as a retail worker, seeing this every day and now in various ways during this pandemic, there are some who fail at it. I see this, during all situations in my life. Why do some fail at it? 

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XenoFish
Just now, Stubbly_Dooright said:

I agree with you. You're right. Just be a good person. I think, that makes perfect sense. And, I'm not being snarky about it. What gets me, and I say this as a retail worker, seeing this every day and now in various ways during this pandemic, there are some who fail at it. I see this, during all situations in my life. Why do some fail at it? 

We all fail at it from time to time. Yet it is a quality we can all develop. For some it is easy, others not so much. I think if people realized first that we all die, that life is very finite and over before we know it. That others have seen some type of hardship and if we remember that, maybe, just maybe it would be a lot easy to just be a bit more courteous to others. If you need god to enforce that ideal then you're not a good person. If you do it regardless of spiritual/religious belief/s then I think you're in the green. I have no idea why people desire to make things more complicated than they should be. 

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Stubbly_Dooright
1 minute ago, XenoFish said:
4 minutes ago, Stubbly_Dooright said:

I agree with you. You're right. Just be a good person. I think, that makes perfect sense. And, I'm not being snarky about it. What gets me, and I say this as a retail worker, seeing this every day and now in various ways during this pandemic, there are some who fail at it. I see this, during all situations in my life. Why do some fail at it? 

We all fail at it from time to time. Yet it is a quality we can all develop. For some it is easy, others not so much. I think if people realized first that we all die, that life is very finite and over before we know it. That others have seen some type of hardship and if we remember that, maybe, just maybe it would be a lot easy to just be a bit more courteous to others. If you need god to enforce that ideal then you're not a good person. If you do it regardless of spiritual/religious belief/s then I think you're in the green. I have no idea why people desire to make things more complicated than they should be. 

I think some like to make things complicated to keep the brain juice flowing. Or, can't help it. Well, that's my excuses. Anyways, to the point, I have seen that saying in a recent thread before on that needing God to be good, means you're not good to begin with. It made me think. Of course, I really can't believe in God, and feel I want to be good, for the sake of others, (and not get in trouble, which is selfish I guess) , but I have my beliefs, and if I feel my beliefs make me a better person, does that make me initially a bad person? I'm not saying this is being said of me, I am thinking if this is me! :o 

I like your points of reflecting on death and going from there to just consider others and just being good. I think, that is a simple way of looking at it, and would think all would adhere to it. 

The thing is, and as I pointed out in a couple of posts prior to this, God is not provable. So, how can it be considered that he helps or the belief in him helps one be good. It's not consistent in how one suffers from not being good. Plus, I see some believers say how strongly they believe he 'forgives' them for their wrong doings. Seriously, I don't think anyone learns any lessons from that! 

Watching how your behavior causes things to happen and how you see others feel from it, I would think would be a more helpful and thoughtful way of learning to be good. 

I like to think my believe guides me to that, but it could be just know that already. 

How consistent can one be good, if what they believe in, is not consistent? Then yes, Xeno, one needs their own common sense to behave. 

Now, having common sense, that another thing one wonders in all having. Well, I do wonder at that. 

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eight bits
15 hours ago, XenoFish said:

Need god, don't need god to be moral. Doesn't matter. We're all going to die anyway.

Yeah, but being moral is about what happens in the meantime. I was encouraged to see some improvement among our fellow Americans in their thinking about the problem.

16 hours ago, Will do said:

But then again:

"None is good but God"

I think Xeno and Stubbly covered that in their conversation.

No human being is going to turn in a perfect performance, but a reliable performance? Some people do and some don't. Trying to tell who will perform reliably based on whether they believe in some extraterrestial or other is a fool's errand IMO.

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XenoFish

The way I see it, if a minimum of say 75% of what you do is morally right then you're good to go. However that really depends on the person's moral. 'Do unto others' seems to be universal among cultures. If we're going with that then it really isn't too difficult. Then again....

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lightly
Posted (edited)

The idea of  good  always puzzles me a little.  It isn't always all that easy to distinguish between  good  and bad?  I like your point X....that  "do unto others".  seems to be a universal concept.   I always wonder why...and always come up with the idea that the reason for it is. . because it benefits the group . ?   Survival instinct really?    That sort of cooperation far preceded any sort of ideas about gods or religions?

    and ,of course, . God will get you if you don't.  So  be good !  :P

Edited by lightly
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Sherapy
Posted (edited)
On 7/21/2020 at 12:46 PM, Stubbly_Dooright said:

I think about your sister, I feel so sad. I’m sorry. :(  

I wonder though, about guilt and living with it and how believers and nonbelievers do that. I am thinking about what you said about your sister, and then I’m thinking about me when I have it and how I deal with it.

I feel, I need my belief, yet I need it to help me repair, do what I need to do, and at the same time keep me from going crazy from the guilt I have inside me. 
I guess this is maybe a stupid question, possibly something I should know better about, but my speculation on nonbelievers in guilt how they deal with it. I try to speculate during my atheist years and then I remember something. I try not to do the things that causes me to be in situations where I’m going to feel the consequences of my actions and at the same Time also get the massive amount of guilt. I guess, I can’t deal with the guilt if I am a non-believer. 
but that’s my speculations on a very subjective, very faulted, very more than likely a cowardly way of looking at it. I will look at that and I will admit  it’s probably wrong I’m thinking and behaving this way. But to avoid it, I tried to not do it.

With my belief now, I like to think I still behave that way but feel my belief will help me make amends and help my guilt at the same time. Is that better for me than it was in the past? I don’t know. But, I think this makes a great thought-provoking reflection, at least just for me to think about.

i’m not sure what is the best when considering your sister, I know You use her as an example but I feel Hope that there is something in her to help herself and to her to Also help others in the future.

Thank you for your compassion, my friend. :wub:

Perhaps my sister will find a better application for her belief construct too. 

Edited by Sherapy
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Sherapy
On 7/22/2020 at 10:17 AM, lightly said:

The idea of  good  always puzzles me a little.  It isn't always all that easy to distinguish between  good  and bad?  I like your point X....that  "do unto others".  seems to be a universal concept.   I always wonder why...and always come up with the idea that the reason for it is. . because it benefits the group . ?   Survival instinct really?    That sort of cooperation far preceded any sort of ideas about gods or religions?

    and ,of course, . God will get you if you don't.  So  be good !  :P

For some “do unto others...” can mean to impose ones beliefs onto others, righteous over a myth, or advocate to be limited by the myth as if no other way would suffice, those like this can and do cause harm often with children it can mean a lot of negative things depending on how a person perceives and applies this. 
I think “Do No Harm” to self and others might do a better job of giving pause and thought to the behaviors one chooses. IMHO

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Cookie Monster
On 7/21/2020 at 3:55 PM, eight bits said:

Just out yesterday:

https://www.pewresearch.org/global/2020/07/20/the-global-god-divide/

It's a long read as web things go. As an American, the eye-catcher for me was that a majority of Americans surveyed now agree with most of the rest of the developed west: Yeah, you don't need God to be a good person.

But there's lots more in the results for folks around the globe.

Pew is a high-quality polling organization - all polls have their limits, but Pew's work is consistently best-practice combined with straight reporting of the results. They are a gem.

Good and evil exist, and both came into existence from God.

The best way of looking at it is that God uses both to get you where he wants you to be.

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lightly
14 hours ago, Sherapy said:

For some “do unto others...” can mean to impose ones beliefs onto others, righteous over a myth, or advocate to be limited by the myth as if no other way would suffice, those like this can and do cause harm often with children it can mean a lot of negative things depending on how a person perceives and applies this. 
I think “Do No Harm” to self and others might do a better job of giving pause and thought to the behaviors one chooses. IMHO

Hmm,  I just always took 'it' to mean, as it Fully states, do unto others...as you would have others do unto you.  In other words... Treat others like you would want to be treated....or behave toward others as you would want others to behave toward you.   I never thought of it as an invitation to impose one's beliefs on others. 

But , I guess your right...that some probably would manage to mis- perceive and mis-apply the notion.  

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Stubbly_Dooright
14 hours ago, Sherapy said:
On 7/22/2020 at 1:17 PM, lightly said:

The idea of  good  always puzzles me a little.  It isn't always all that easy to distinguish between  good  and bad?  I like your point X....that  "do unto others".  seems to be a universal concept.   I always wonder why...and always come up with the idea that the reason for it is. . because it benefits the group . ?   Survival instinct really?    That sort of cooperation far preceded any sort of ideas about gods or religions?

    and ,of course, . God will get you if you don't.  So  be good !  :P

For some “do unto others...” can mean to impose ones beliefs onto others, righteous over a myth, or advocate to be limited by the myth as if no other way would suffice, those like this can and do cause harm often with children it can mean a lot of negative things depending on how a person perceives and applies this. 
I think “Do No Harm” to self and others might do a better job of giving pause and thought to the behaviors one chooses. IMHO

I agree 100%!!! :tu:

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Stubbly_Dooright
34 minutes ago, lightly said:
15 hours ago, Sherapy said:

For some “do unto others...” can mean to impose ones beliefs onto others, righteous over a myth, or advocate to be limited by the myth as if no other way would suffice, those like this can and do cause harm often with children it can mean a lot of negative things depending on how a person perceives and applies this. 
I think “Do No Harm” to self and others might do a better job of giving pause and thought to the behaviors one chooses. IMHO

Hmm,  I just always took 'it' to mean, as it Fully states, do unto others...as you would have others do unto you.  In other words... Treat others like you would want to be treated....or behave toward others as you would want others to behave toward you.   I never thought of it as an invitation to impose one's beliefs on others. 

But , I guess your right...that some probably would manage to mis- perceive and mis-apply the notion.  

I would initially think that too. But, Sheri’s point does make sense to me. I can see where, when, and why, that would happen. 
In fact, I think I have observed that in the past. 

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lightly
Posted (edited)
18 minutes ago, Stubbly_Dooright said:

I would initially think that too. But, Sheri’s point does make sense to me. I can see where, when, and why, that would happen. 
In fact, I think I have observed that in the past. 

..I guess I don't understand how the message ...Do unto others  as you would have others do unto you...is an invitation to force your beliefs or will on another.

..do no harm....is a great idea.     But it only precludes the negative and does not include the positive...whereas,...Do unto others as you would have others do unto you.   ...can be understood as an invitation to do something good and positive for another...and not simply to do no harm to them.   ?

 

 

 

Edited by lightly
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