Early Egyptian Astronomy

[Kenemet]

7 hours ago, Orestes_3113 said:

Looked into tilapia fish, hatches in March matures in 240 days, or 8 months. Prime catching season would be November, the month of cancer midheaven.

About the glyph let me be the idiot to ignore you on that. If I say viper I could refer to lynx constellation, viper on the ground or 'f' sound in this example by not making a distinction. Whith protowriting a broader interpretation is possible.

The context of the constellations and the turn of the seasons seem to fit. The major gain is to look at the midnight midheaven for interpretation, instead of the ascendent which would be used in the decanate system.

This isn't protowriting.  Djedkare Isesi lived 150 years after Khufu, who built the Great Pyramid.  

It's writing. 

These are letters and they're a part a word written on the tile. 

What you're trying to claim is like saying that my use of the capital letter "A" in this particular post represents a constellation called "The Ladder" that you've defined in the sky --and that the messages on this message board are merely "protowriting."

Furthermore, tilapia are available all year around in the Nile and are a main food fish... there's no such thing as a "prime catching season" any more than there's a "prime catching season" for panfish in Florida.

[Herbert Sanders]

14 hours ago, Kenemet said:

This isn't protowriting.  Djedkare Isesi lived 150 years after Khufu, who built the Great Pyramid.  

It's writing. 

These are letters and they're a part a word written on the tile. 

What you're trying to claim is like saying that my use of the capital letter "A" in this particular post represents a constellation called "The Ladder" that you've defined in the sky --and that the messages on this message board are merely "protowriting."

Furthermore, tilapia are available all year around in the Nile and are a main food fish... there's no such thing as a "prime catching season" any more than there's a "prime catching season" for panfish in Florida.

When talking about writing why reference Djedkare Isesi of course he lived after Khufu. In my perception during the Sphinx alignment of 2371 BC. Den lived during the 30th century BC.

With animals if there is a breading season then there is a prime.

[Kenemet]

10 hours ago, Orestes_3113 said:

When talking about writing why reference Djedkare Isesi of course he lived after Khufu. In my perception during the Sphinx alignment of 2371 BC. Den lived during the 30th century BC.

With animals if there is a breading season then there is a prime.

You are using a sandal label from Djedkare Isesi and saying it represents a sky map, tagging letters in actual words on the label as being constellations and then saying "protowriting."  I am saying that it's not true in any sense -- just as the letter "a" in the things I'm typing is not "protowriting."

Den and Djedkare Isesi aren't the same person.

Although I don't think the Nile tilapia have a "breeding season", and many animals (guppies, for instance.  Ask anyone who's raised them and many animals that live in the tropics) don't have breeding seasons.  That said, in India the Nile Tilapia breeding season is tied to the monsoon season, which is over before October.  Hence, the "peak breeding season" you referenced is not in November (your suggestion.)  

Egypt, however, doesn't have monsoons.

(Wikipedia quote: . In India, Nile tilapia is the most dominant fish in some of the South Indian reservoirs and available throughout the year. O. niloticus grows faster and reaches bigger sizes in a given time. The littoral areas of Kelavarappalli Reservoir are full of nests of Nile tilapia and they breed during south-west monsoon (July–September).  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nile_tilapia)

 

Edited July 26, 2020 by Kenemet

[Herbert Sanders]

On 7/26/2020 at 7:21 PM, Kenemet said:

You are using a sandal label from Djedkare Isesi and saying it represents a sky map, tagging letters in actual words on the label as being constellations and then saying "protowriting."  I am saying that it's not true in any sense -- just as the letter "a" in the things I'm typing is not "protowriting."

Den and Djedkare Isesi aren't the same person.

Although I don't think the Nile tilapia have a "breeding season", and many animals (guppies, for instance.  Ask anyone who's raised them and many animals that live in the tropics) don't have breeding seasons.  That said, in India the Nile Tilapia breeding season is tied to the monsoon season, which is over before October.  Hence, the "peak breeding season" you referenced is not in November (your suggestion.)  

Egypt, however, doesn't have monsoons.

(Wikipedia quote: . In India, Nile tilapia is the most dominant fish in some of the South Indian reservoirs and available throughout the year. O. niloticus grows faster and reaches bigger sizes in a given time. The littoral areas of Kelavarappalli Reservoir are full of nests of Nile tilapia and they breed during south-west monsoon (July–September).  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nile_tilapia)

 

I know Den and Djedkare Isesi arent the same person. Djedkare lived in the 24th century BCE, Den in the 30th. I think I will concede on the cancer/fish part and opting for Sirius instead (Nile flooding etc). I have looked at the Milky Way (blue) as was suggested and I think that is a more interesting take on things. The sky in the below figure is at Girga near Abydos 2970 BCE.

But im sticking with "they looked up to the stars", "Scorpion I was an emblem for harvest season not a real individual" and the focus is always "midnight midheaven". Here the Sun gets smitten beyond the celestial equator, an early example of Tauroctony, along with the inscription “The first occasion of smiting the East”..

Quote

That said, in India the Nile Tilapia breeding season is tied to the monsoon season, which is over before October. 

Season A - small fish lots of action - from February to end of July

Season B - bigger fish deeper water - from mid October until end of January

http://www.worldsportfishing.com/fishing-holidays/egypt/fishing-season/ 

Edited July 27, 2020 by Orestes_3113

[Sir Wearer of Hats]

Why do none of the outlines match the shapes? I mean, if you’re given instructions to “fit the stars into the artwork” surely you’d make the artwork directly align to the stars and not “well, this dude’s ankles are the end of the stars along ei5 one armpit and sort of around his elbow....”

[Herbert Sanders]

2 minutes ago, Sir Wearer of Hats said:

Why do none of the outlines match the shapes? I mean, if you’re given instructions to “fit the stars into the artwork” surely you’d make the artwork directly align to the stars and not “well, this dude’s ankles are the end of the stars along ei5 one armpit and sort of around his elbow....”

[Sir Wearer of Hats]

Just now, Orestes_3113 said:

Thst’s the second nicest drawing of me anyone has done. 
Thank you.

[Kenemet]

51 minutes ago, Orestes_3113 said:

Season A - small fish lots of action - from February to end of July

Season B - bigger fish deeper water - from mid October until end of January

http://www.worldsportfishing.com/fishing-holidays/egypt/fishing-season/ 

Nile perch and tilapia are not the same fish.  Tilapia are ciclids.  Perch are... perches (genus) and are different.

The hieroglyph is specifically the tilapia.  Other fish had different signs.

Also, you can't pretend like hieroglyphs are just pretty pictures.  You're trying to take parts of several words and say they're pictures.  They aren't.  What you're doing is like circling random letters in the part of your message that I just quoted and then linking the letters in those words together randomly and trying to match them to star patterns.

If you're going to study ancient Egypt, you would do well to learn to read hieroglyphs... as many here can (even to some small degree.)

 

[jaylemurph]

11 minutes ago, Sir Wearer of Hats said:

Why do none of the outlines match the shapes? I mean, if you’re given instructions to “fit the stars into the artwork” surely you’d make the artwork directly align to the stars and not “well, this dude’s ankles are the end of the stars along ei5 one armpit and sort of around his elbow....”

You keep forgetting how savage and primitive these AE were. They were a race unburdened by fine detail. 

—Jaylemurph 

[Herbert Sanders]

8 minutes ago, Kenemet said:

Nile perch and tilapia are not the same fish.  Tilapia are ciclids.  Perch are... perches (genus) and are different.

"From approximately mid March through to the end of July the Nile perch can be found in shallow water. This is because Tilapia, the Nile perch’s principal prey, are spawning and then after spawning the huge population of Tilapia fry are growing up; all this takes place in water between 10 to 20 feet."

Tilapia have a period of accelerated growth that begins at hatching and lasts for roughly 240 days, or 34 weeks - http://southwesttilapiafarm.com/length-time-grow-tilapia-fingerling-harvest-size/

[Kenemet]

1 hour ago, Orestes_3113 said:

I know Den and Djedkare Isesi arent the same person. Djedkare lived in the 24th century BCE, Den in the 30th. I think I will concede on the cancer/fish part and opting for Sirius instead (Nile flooding etc). I have looked at the Milky Way (blue) as was suggested and I think that is a more interesting take on things. The sky in the below figure is at Girga near Abydos 2970 BCE.

But im sticking with "they looked up to the stars", "Scorpion I was an emblem for harvest season not a real individual" and the focus is always "midnight midheaven". Here the Sun gets smitten beyond the celestial equator, an early example of Tauroctony, along with the inscription “The first occasion of smiting the East”..

Also... you're using GREEK CONSTELLATIONS OF 300 BC.  These are not the constellations used by the Egyptians, as the star diagonal tables show.

Also, you're trying to make a cultural thing out of a pose that is unique to only one object.  Notice the differences in this "smiting"  - no Wepwauwet, more text, Hawk serekh to the left.

And this drawing of Seti's smiting scene

And this

And another

...and so on and so forth.  This is a popular image with pharaohs; it's propaganda that shows they're able to get up and smite enemies.  If it had a stellar connection, every one of them would be exactly the same and the text would be identical (and would reference stars.)

 

By the way, every single one of these examples has the same or similar text to the sandal label you have: (the difference being in the name of the enemies)

 

 

 

[Kenemet]

25 minutes ago, Orestes_3113 said:

"From approximately mid March through to the end of July the Nile perch can be found in shallow water. This is because Tilapia, the Nile perch’s principal prey, are spawning and then after spawning the huge population of Tilapia fry are growing up; all this takes place in water between 10 to 20 feet."

Tilapia have a period of accelerated growth that begins at hatching and lasts for roughly 240 days, or 34 weeks - http://southwesttilapiafarm.com/length-time-grow-tilapia-fingerling-harvest-size/

Doesn't matter.  The fish in the hieroglyph is tilapia (as confirmed by many drawings and texts.)  Not perch.  They look different.

[Herbert Sanders]

17 minutes ago, Kenemet said:

Also... you're using GREEK CONSTELLATIONS OF 300 BC.  These are not the constellations used by the Egyptians, as the star diagonal tables show.

Also, you're trying to make a cultural thing out of a pose that is unique to only one object.  Notice the differences in this "smiting"  - no Wepwauwet, more text, Hawk serekh to the left.

And this drawing of Seti's smiting scene

And this

And another

...and so on and so forth.  This is a popular image with pharaohs; it's propaganda that shows they're able to get up and smite enemies.  If it had a stellar connection, every one of them would be exactly the same and the text would be identical (and would reference stars.)

By the way, every single one of these examples has the same or similar text to the sandal label you have: (the difference being in the name of the enemies)

 

They are fixed stars, they do not change, only their relative position across our sky over time. With the smiting scene as demonstrated in the pyramid thread, same object but different use, different times can create different pictures. None would have to be the same.

Edited July 27, 2020 by Orestes_3113

[Herbert Sanders]

8 minutes ago, Kenemet said:

Doesn't matter.  The fish in the hieroglyph is tilapia (as confirmed by many drawings and texts.)  Not perch.  They look different.

"From approximately mid March through to the end of July the Nile perch can be found in shallow water. This is because Tilapia, the Nile perch’s principal prey, are spawning and then after spawning the huge population of Tilapia fry are growing up; all this takes place in water between 10 to 20 feet."

Tilapia have a period of accelerated growth that begins at hatching and lasts for roughly 240 days, or 34 weeks - http://southwesttilapiafarm.com/length-time-grow-tilapia-fingerling-harvest-size/

[Wepwawet]

39 minutes ago, Kenemet said:

...and so on and so forth.  This is a popular image with pharaohs; it's propaganda that shows they're able to get up and smite enemies.  If it had a stellar connection, every one of them would be exactly the same and the text would be identical (and would reference stars.)

 

By the way, every single one of these examples has the same or similar text to the sandal label you have: (the difference being in the name of the enemies)

 

 

 

I'll add to that the image of Nefertiti in smiting pose.

I know you know this, but I'll give this small explanation to illustrate the point for all. Her depiction in this pose very clearly shows that it is used to show power and is nothing to do with the stars, or even the gods. Akhenaten has never been found to be in a smiting scene, in fact as he is king he does not have to be. Nefertiti needed to be shown as a person who wielded power and was not just the king's GRW, and a smiting scene is a clear way of showing she now has political power. From the Narmer Palette to the pylon at Edfu it was only ever a demonstration of the wielding of power.

 

Q -  Why is Akhenaten usually shown in domestic type scenes and Nefertiti as a wielder of power.

A - Give me another 900 pages.....

Edited July 27, 2020 by Wepwawet

[jaylemurph]

I know virtually nothing about Ancient Egypt, but I’ve never thought to myself, “Jeepers, Ima posit elaborate historical theories based on that ignorance and then be rude to people who do know about it.”

But maybe I’m living wrong. 

—Jaylemurph 

[Kenemet]

On 7/27/2020 at 3:53 PM, Orestes_3113 said:

"From approximately mid March through to the end of July the Nile perch can be found in shallow water. This is because Tilapia, the Nile perch’s principal prey, are spawning and then after spawning the huge population of Tilapia fry are growing up; all this takes place in water between 10 to 20 feet."

Tilapia have a period of accelerated growth that begins at hatching and lasts for roughly 240 days, or 34 weeks - http://southwesttilapiafarm.com/length-time-grow-tilapia-fingerling-harvest-size/

Your original statement was that the fish is supposedly there (which is actually part of a word) because its spawning season is November.  I keep pointing out that the fish is a tilapia, that it's actually a sound that's part of a word, and the tilapia don't spawn in November.

Talking about perch and so forth is what's called a "gish gallop"... you're not sticking to the topic.  If you wish to debate the topic, then you must first prove that during the time of King Den they couldn't actually write anything (not names or prayers or reports of conflict) and that dictionaries of words on artifacts like the one below actually are incorrect.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Den_(pharaoh)#/media/File:EbonyLabelOfDen-BritishMuseum-August19-08.jpg

Then you can write this scholar and explain why his interpretation of Bastet on the jar is wrong

http://www.francescoraffaele.com/egypt/hesyra/Bastet_CCdE7-8.pdf

I'm sure you'll want to contact others as well.  Do include sources to show where they're all wrong and can't read hieroglyphs.

 

[Piney]

22 minutes ago, Kenemet said:

Then you can write this scholar and explain why his interpretation of Basset on the jar is wrong

[Hanslune]

2 hours ago, Kenemet said:

Your original statement was that the fish is supposedly there (which is actually part of a word) because its spawning season is November.  I keep pointing out that the fish is a tilapia, that it's actually a sound that's part of a word, and the tilapia don't spawn in November.

Talking about perch and so forth is what's called a "gish gallop"... you're not sticking to the topic.  If you wish to debate the topic, then you must first prove that during the time of King Den they couldn't actually write anything (not names or prayers or reports of conflict) and that dictionaries of words on artifacts like the one below actually are incorrect.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Den_(pharaoh)#/media/File:EbonyLabelOfDen-BritishMuseum-August19-08.jpg

Then you can write this scholar and explain why his interpretation of Bastet on the jar is wrong

http://www.francescoraffaele.com/egypt/hesyra/Bastet_CCdE7-8.pdf

I'm sure you'll want to contact others as well.  Do include sources to show where they're all wrong and can't read hieroglyphs.

 

On USENET long ago there was poster named KingofEgyptlanguage or some such and he held that all Egyptology had the language all wrong.  They weren't going to send info on why they were wrong to hundreds of professors instead they were planing on setting up Linguistic Courts to try all the 'criminalglyphreaders' or some such thing....I should have saves some of those great ravings.

[Piney]

4 minutes ago, Hanslune said:

On USENET long ago there was poster named KingofEgyptlanguage or some such and he held that all Egyptology had the language all wrong.  They weren't going to send info on why they were wrong to hundreds of professors instead they were planing on setting up Linguistic Courts to try all the 'criminalglyphreaders' or some such thing....I should have saves some of those great ravings.

Let me guess. They were Afrocentrist. 

[Hanslune]

1 hour ago, Piney said:

Let me guess. They were Afrocentrist. 

I don't remember but that seems possible, not impossible. i do believe he was a radical Christian thou. Oh, not USENET but some forum on AOL now that I think about it...or was that USENET...about 35 years ago

[Piney]

Just now, Hanslune said:

I don't remember but that seems possible, not impossible. i do believe he was a radical Christian thou. Oh, not USENET but some forum on AOL now that I think about it...or was that USENET...about 35 years ago

Probably John Gee hiding his identity. He's a screwhead. 

I don't know how you can get a Egyptology Ph.D. at Yale and become a Mormon apologist supporting "Reformed Egyptian".  

[Hanslune]

6 minutes ago, Piney said:

Probably John Gee hiding his identity. He's a screwhead. 

I don't know how you can get a Egyptology Ph.D. at Yale and become a Mormon apologist supporting "Reformed Egyptian".  

Smart people are not immune to being complete morons. As I noted before i use to hire hundreds of them for schools in the Middle East and there is nothing quite as odd, frustrating and useless as a well-educated idiot.

[Piney]

2 minutes ago, Hanslune said:

Smart people are not immune to being complete morons. As I noted before i use to hire hundreds of them for schools in the Middle East and there is nothing quite as odd, frustrating and useless as a well-educated idiot.

https://www.fromthedesk.org/10-questions-john-gee/

Quote

The third is that one can assess the validity and authenticity of the Book of Abraham and understand its contents without reference to the ancient world of Abraham’s day. If all one studies and all one knows is nineteenth century history, then all one will be able to see is the nineteenth century; one will never be in a position to see anything ancient in the Book of Abraham.

I'm not going to post the wall of text defending the bad astronomy in the 'Crock of Abraham?' but it's a hilarious read if you want a midnight giggle. 

[jaylemurph]

52 minutes ago, Piney said:

Probably John Gee hiding his identity. He's a screwhead. 

I don't know how you can get a Egyptology Ph.D. at Yale and become a Mormon apologist supporting "Reformed Egyptian".  

...I don't know. The promise of three or four sister wives might work for some people. I might convert to Buddhism if somebody threw in a k-pop band to sweeten the deal.

--Jaylemurph