ET will have to accept Christ to enter Heaven

[jmccr8]

8 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

The y dont claim to  BELIEVE in gods, they  claim to KNOW them.

Walker

No they do not believe in god nor do they claim to know god

And in fact, this was exactly the case – after years living with and studying the Pirahã, Everett concluded that their entire culture, including their language, was set up to focus exclusively on aspects of life that could be immediately experienced or reported. For example, a story about a fish someone just caught would be acceptable, but a fictional story about visiting Cairo would not, since the latter story would not be a report of something someone actually experienced.
This exclusive focus on experiences that could be immediately reported by their first-person witnesses made it impossible, or nearly so, for the Pirahã to take Christian stories seriously. Narratives about Jesus not seemed not only silly but downright nonsensical, since no one alive could have possibly met Jesus in person. The extreme empiricism of the Pirahã also explained, according to Everett, the total lack of creation narratives, myths, or stories about gods and spirits in their culture. The Pirahã believe only in what they can see – and nothing more.

 

9 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

Their gods walk among them, are powerful and destructive/dangerous 

Not from what I have read, spirits yes like the ones that take women and bring them back pregnant to me are likely river boats men that take the women who trade sex for goods.

They do not maintain ancestry nor does their language describe the individual person as an identity.

9 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

Was your last little line of text directed at me ? I dont quite get its point. 

Yes it was, your alien buddy has not confirmed the validity of the writings of the UB strangely silent on the subject and to me if the UB was accurate then your alien would be one of it's subjects(members) which you have confirmed that it is not and the UB clearly implies that all alien life is due to it.

jmccr8

[Mr Walker]

16 hours ago, Piney said:

It's called the "personification of nature and human nature". Our river spirits were of the same vein. A river can do good or do harm but shamans understood the idea of "personification for respect" for the masses to protect them.

One of the first things I learned was spirits were created by peoples' minds. Siberian, Korean and Chinese shamans instruct their children/students exactly the same. 

A fair summation.

I am not sure that what you  learned was correct, however.

In my expernce the spirits of nature are aspects of the cosmic consciousness.

When a tree or a bear imparts knowledge or wisdom to you, it is not actually the bear or the tree speaking, but the universal consciousness, which links all things.

  It may depend on  what you  mean by "created".

i suspect only human minds have the abilty to sense and communicate with the universal consciousness

  The y create meaning from  the words because our minds are capable of doing so  IMO/experience the"spirits" and universal consciousness existed before humans evolved and  would continue to exist without humans.  

I know you have opinions about different forms of shamanism and i dont know how you feel about this one but the following quote illustrates  the threshold understanding of this interaction as i understand it 

quote

We humans have an interdependence with all life, and we share a unity with all things here on our planet. We are connected to the oceans, the whales, the mountains, the bears, the trees and birds, the sun, moon and stars.

In shamanic cultures it is understood that all the beings in the natural world have spirits animating and empowering them. Incense Cedar spirit, Ponderosa Pine spirit, lake spirit, lightning spirit, spirit of rain, snow spirit, star spirits… The natural world is full of living, compassionate nature spirits who help the shaman divine answers to urgent life questions. The voice of bird, the crackling of fire, the sound of wind and wave — all of these are the shaman’s helpers on her quest for knowledge, survival and healing.

https://www.shamanicuniverse.com/shamanism-and-the-spirits-of-nature/

IMO however, there is a unified/connected consciousness, which imparts /powers the spirits of all things, including humans.

or this one 

quote

According to ancient shamanic knowledge, there is a conscience, a spirit, an innate wisdom in everything that surrounds us. When we connect with Our Mother Earth and with the spirits of nature, they nourish and protects us. Mother Earth is constantly whispering signs inviting us to forge a connection with all the sentient beings that surround us in our daily lives.

Learning to understand these signs and connect with these beings, fills us with spiritual power and facilitates the process of harmonizing body, mind, emotions and spirit.
One of the objectives of shamanic work is to re-gain this lost knowledge received during the interaction with the spirits of the nature. This knowledge, ignored by our culture, is a valuable, ancient legacy that belongs to all us as.

https://shamanswisdom.org/shamanism-and-the-spirits-of-nature-2/

 

There is a web or internet of consciousness, not just across the world, but across the galaxy. You just need a "modem and connection"  to enter into it and use it  

Edited September 1, 2020 by Mr Walker

[Mr Walker]

11 hours ago, jmccr8 said:

Walker

No they do not believe in god nor do they claim to know god

And in fact, this was exactly the case – after years living with and studying the Pirahã, Everett concluded that their entire culture, including their language, was set up to focus exclusively on aspects of life that could be immediately experienced or reported. For example, a story about a fish someone just caught would be acceptable, but a fictional story about visiting Cairo would not, since the latter story would not be a report of something someone actually experienced.
This exclusive focus on experiences that could be immediately reported by their first-person witnesses made it impossible, or nearly so, for the Pirahã to take Christian stories seriously. Narratives about Jesus not seemed not only silly but downright nonsensical, since no one alive could have possibly met Jesus in person. The extreme empiricism of the Pirahã also explained, according to Everett, the total lack of creation narratives, myths, or stories about gods and spirits in their culture. The Pirahã believe only in what they can see – and nothing more.

 

Not from what I have read, spirits yes like the ones that take women and bring them back pregnant to me are likely river boats men that take the women who trade sex for goods.

They do not maintain ancestry nor does their language describe the individual person as an identity.

Yes it was, your alien buddy has not confirmed the validity of the writings of the UB strangely silent on the subject and to me if the UB was accurate then your alien would be one of it's subjects(members) which you have confirmed that it is not and the UB clearly implies that all alien life is due to it.

jmccr8

Not GOD or even God, but gods

Their spirits are their gods just as the y were for all primitive peoples   Thats what i meant about not confining a god concept to modern ones like Christianity.

  As a modern educated missionary immersed in Christianity I dont think Everett realised this Other anthropologists reviewing his work have however 

The y talked only of personal experiences yet they spoke of their " gods " and their experiences with them.

The y believed only what they  could "see"  yet they "believed" in those malevolent entities

and no, i dont think the y confused marauding  humans with those spirit/god forms. The y are primitive but not stupid. 

 I dont get your last point any more now than before 

Basically it is like the elephant and the blind men 

Each senses a part of the whole, and uses that part to understand the whole. Thus all individual understandings are true, but incomplete .

My "buddy"  has not spoken to me on any religious matters.

I Suspect "he" is an atheist, or  secular non humanist.  

 IMO My entity  is most likely the universal consciousness, taking both conscious and physical forms .

Almost every religious understanding, including the  Urantia  one, can be encompassed and understood through this.

   From  the most ancient shamanism, to the most modern religious theologies , all are comprehensible,  if humanity is in contact with an ancient, powerful, and wise being, or race of beings . 

I can see how the governance principles outlined in the UB could be inferred by the role of the comic consciousness in observing, guiding, and mentoring,  a whole galaxy wide system of civilisations, from newly  emergent ones to highly evolved ones.

However, we have to realise that we are like primitive indigenous peoples observing and wondering at the power of Europeans who have come to our lands with vastly greater technology and power than we can dream of.  

Edited September 1, 2020 by Mr Walker

[jmccr8]

2 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

Their spirits are their gods just as the y were for all primitive peoples 

Walker

Spirit and god are words used to describe specific entities and are not the same. I know that you like to re-write the English language to suit your arguments and are very liberal in what you consider a god to be but an alien or spirit is not a god. You say you don't see them as gods but others would, well given the years of discussions that we have had no one else sees them as gods either and one would hope that at some point you would realize this and adapt your presentation to something more progressive and productive.

You impose certain significances that are not in evidence and have not given any evidence to support your position.

2 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

As a modern educated missionary immersed in Christianity I dont think Everett realised this Other anthropologists reviewing his work have however 

They reviewed his work or went and studied these people themselves? I can tell someone how to build a house but if they have no sense experience of working at a construction site their perspective is limited not so much different then how the Piraha people look at first hand account or story telling.

2 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

and no, i dont think the y confused marauding  humans with those spirit/god forms. The y are primitive but not stupid. 

So please do explain how these women came back pregnant or do you not think that making up a story like I told my parents that it was truck lights instead of telling them that you were talking to a light bulb in the yard serves a purpose?

2 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

 I dont get your last point any more now than before 

Truth be told your alien doesn't say much about anything to date you have described one incident where this alien actually spoke to you about smoking the other time some guy walks in give you a bible that you open at a random page and find some comfort the alien said nothing and did not direct you to the passage that you found.

What the point is is that the UB claims responsibility for the creation of man and all alien life and your alien being and alien did not come here to you to confirm that the UB is true and now you are telling me it is a humanist agnostic which a true alien believer would not be able to claim to be and then that brings up another problem because appearently out of all the planets seeded Earth was the only one to revolt so either that is a lie if you alien is an agnostic or did you corrupt it?

2 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

 From  the most ancient shamanism, to the most modern religious theologies , all are comprehensible,  if humanity is in contact with an ancient, powerful, and wise being, or race of beings . 

I can see how the governance principles outlined in the UB could be inferred by the role of the comic consciousness in observing, guiding, and mentoring,  a whole galaxy wide system of civilisations, from newly  emergent ones to highly evolved ones.

Sober or SFed I don't see that.

2 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

However, we have to realise that we are like primitive indigenous peoples observing and wondering at the power of Europeans who have come to our lands with vastly greater technology and power than we can dream of.  

And yet you are somehow above being a primitive that's our role right 

jmccr8

[Mr Walker]

2 hours ago, jmccr8 said:

Walker

Spirit and god are words used to describe specific entities and are not the same. I know that you like to re-write the English language to suit your arguments and are very liberal in what you consider a god to be but an alien or spirit is not a god. You say you don't see them as gods but others would, well given the years of discussions that we have had no one else sees them as gods either and one would hope that at some point you would realize this and adapt your presentation to something more progressive and productive.

You impose certain significances that are not in evidence and have not given any evidence to support your position.

They reviewed his work or went and studied these people themselves? I can tell someone how to build a house but if they have no sense experience of working at a construction site their perspective is limited not so much different then how the Piraha people look at first hand account or story telling.

So please do explain how these women came back pregnant or do you not think that making up a story like I told my parents that it was truck lights instead of telling them that you were talking to a light bulb in the yard serves a purpose?

Truth be told your alien doesn't say much about anything to date you have described one incident where this alien actually spoke to you about smoking the other time some guy walks in give you a bible that you open at a random page and find some comfort the alien said nothing and did not direct you to the passage that you found.

What the point is is that the UB claims responsibility for the creation of man and all alien life and your alien being and alien did not come here to you to confirm that the UB is true and now you are telling me it is a humanist agnostic which a true alien believer would not be able to claim to be and then that brings up another problem because appearently out of all the planets seeded Earth was the only one to revolt so either that is a lie if you alien is an agnostic or did you corrupt it?

Sober or SFed I don't see that.

And yet you are somehow above being a primitive that's our role right 

jmccr8

To reply to your first point that is where we differ The definition of god basically includes everything which humans worship That can include the sun, moon,  earth, sky,  animals plants etc.

I use the wider definition of god as understood by early humans. The spirits are/were gods to them and  (in their beliefs) held the power of life and death over them   

The piraha are used as an example to argue that not all humans construct god forms.

The piranha DO have their god forms. They are just so different to present god forms that it takes an anthropologist to recognise them.

  Long long ago these were the ONLY god forms  for human beings 

Children all construct "gods"  in their minds but they arent like the christian god. They are agents who manipulate the world and make changes which kids cant explain.  The writers i read had been there and studied the peole Unlike Everett the y were trained anthropologists without any relgious issues 

I am not arguing tha t women might  not have been taken and returned pregnant 

My point was that the people would have known what happened if this was simply abduction  The entities the piraha saw (or thought the y saw) and feared  were NOT seen by Everett or his daughter  Thus they  were not just human beings  The y were real or imagined constructs of the piraha people 

  ive given a dozen examples of things my mate has talked to me about from racing and footy  tips to marriage guidance but mostly just good advice on living and specific warnings of approaching dangers Plus of course support, power and strengthening from its worlds and presence  .

LOL the "angel" provided the bible.

IMO it also guided my finger to the passage but of course that might have just been incredibly good luck or unbelievable coincidence.  (think how many words there are in a bible yet it opened to those ones ) I said it COULD be agnostic or atheist .Our relationship is neither religious nor spiritual  I am not a creationist and neither is "my god" We both understand that all life is a product of evolution  

BUT aside from  that there are similarities.

This being is an individual, or artificial intelligence, or maybe one of a race of beings, which "governs" the galaxy. It has set up communication and transport stations across the galaxy There are many different inhabited planets and many self  aware intelligent species Some are much more advanced then humans and have long distance space faring capabilities  and some  much less so  (some are like our ancestors a few million years ago) There is a structure and hierarchy organised to do its best to help all these beings. BUT the y must evolve into mature responsible and safe adult citizens of the galaxy before being permitted to join the galactic civilization. Many never make it and slef destruct despite the help given to them  Others are too dangerous to allow access to the galaxy and are confined to regions near their own planets .

yep humans must evolve  beyond our primate/primitive natures. We must mature and become adults who think and act rationally and peacefully.

Otherwise we will either destroy ourselves or be embargoed/quarantined  into an area of  space near to our own solar system.   

 

Edited September 1, 2020 by Mr Walker

[Piney]

5 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

I am not sure that what you  learned was correct, however.

Really? I was raised in a thousands of years old traditions. You weren't.

5 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

In my expernce the spirits of nature are aspects of the cosmic consciousness.

But it's not personified. Everything has Maanituu. But not it's own. It's shared with the rest of the Universe. 

5 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

When a tree or a bear imparts knowledge or wisdom to you, it is not actually the bear or the tree speaking, but the universal consciousness, which links all things.

Not in the case of Spirit Helpers. They are created by the subconscious and given energy by the Universal one.

4 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

However, we have to realise that we are like primitive indigenous peoples observing and wondering at the power of Europeans who have come to our lands with vastly greater technology and power than we can dream of.  

Different. Not greater. Our horticulture and forest management skills far surpassed the Europeans. Rutgers and other ag schools  are still figuring it out and applying it.

We also invented the fully parcipitory democracy.

[jmccr8]

19 minutes ago, Mr Walker said:

This being is an individual, or artificial intelligence, or maybe one of a race of beings, which "governs" the galaxy. It has set up communication and transport stations across the galaxy There are many different inhabited planets and many self  aware intelligent species Some are much more advanced then humans and have long distance space faring capabilities  and some  much less so  (some are like our ancestors a few million years ago) There is a structure and hierarchy organised to do its best to help all these beings. BUT the y must evolve into mature responsible and safe adult citizens of the galaxy before being permitted to join the galactic civilization. Many never make it and slef destruct despite the help given to them  Others are too dangerous to allow access to the galaxy and are confined to regions near their own planets .

jmccr8

[eight bits]

So, I saw a cute link about a sci-fi story on the theme of how one alien civilization might react to Christian missionaries, and I see here's the thread, still alive. Then I drop in, and what do I find? The poor Piraha.

(1) It's very tricky to say that the Piraha's spirits aren't "gods," given the wide range of hypothetical beings which are called gods. The Piraha do practice spirit possesion, not so different from Voodoo, for example. Is a Voodoo loa a god or not?

And BTW, one academically respectable version of the "real historical Jesus" is that JC was a practitioner of spirit possession (Stevan L. Davies is the searchable advocate - yes, Stevan with an "a" not my usual typing quality). Paul certainly was.

(2) The "extreme empiricism" of the Piraha is actually attested in modern Western thought. The 20th Century Polish logician Jan Łukasiewicz gave a lecture in which he asked whether it would be proper to stop saying of any past event whose observable consequences were now inaccessible, that the event truly happened?

He leaned to "yes." Now take the idea, and situate it in a culture with no written records, no cell phone cameras, ... in  other words a setting where the observable consequences of any human-scale event would typically become indistinguishable from the background with the passing of those people who witnessed it personally.

Thank Jan Łukasiewicz for the principle; thank the Piraha for the application to their circumstances.

Oh, why I dropped by. This is a cool on-topic story, I think (thanks to James McGrath for recommending it):

http://infinitarian.blogspot.com/2018/12/dendrotheology.html

 

[Mr Walker]

15 hours ago, Piney said:

Really? I was raised in a thousands of years old traditions. You weren't.

But it's not personified. Everything has Maanituu. But not it's own. It's shared with the rest of the Universe. 

Not in the case of Spirit Helpers. They are created by the subconscious and given energy by the Universal one.

Different. Not greater. Our horticulture and forest management skills far surpassed the Europeans. Rutgers and other ag schools  are still figuring it out and applying it.

We also invented the fully parcipitory democracy.

Christianity is a thousands of years old tradition That doesnt  make it inherently  correct 

We all tend to accept and believe what we are taught by our "elders"  if it matches our own experiences and understandings.

 I wont argue with your second comment.

Indeed the cosmic consciousness permeates everything (not sure about the whole universe but certainly in this galaxy) In my experince it has two parts like our own minds. It has it's  own individual core consciousness but it also is made up of the connection to, and with, every consciousness in the galaxy

I dont have much experience with spirit helpers but i wonder if the y are similar to angels  IMO angels are  mental and sometimes physical manifestations of the one spirit or consciousnesses

In Christianity the real holy spirit or ghost maybe the same thing   I guess for  some Christians the holy spirit becomes their spirit guide  

No. European technology was "greater"  ie more powerful and more evolved  That  doesn't  mean better  or even superior because tha t depends on your values and goals for community 

Indigenous technologies and practices  often allowed for sustainable living  but they didn't enable advancement or evolution of a society (Australian native peoples lived on the land for over 50000 years without much evolution of technology or  science.or much change in social/ economic structures  )The key to this was keeping down population growth/size either naturally or deliberately 

Lots of people around the world invented participatory democracy. Were native Americans the first ? I dont know enough to say 

 

 

Edited September 2, 2020 by Mr Walker

[Mr Walker]

15 hours ago, jmccr8 said:

jmccr8

I suspect sometimes that a lot of human science fiction comes from  writers who have accessed the cosmic consciousness, even if only through dreams or day dreams.

  I suspect a lot of religious belief has the same origins 

it was really only in the 20th century that humans came to realise and accept tha t space travel was possible and thus, maybe, there were other advanced beings in some form of contact with us .(other than  in a religious form)  

[jmccr8]

10 hours ago, eight bits said:

Oh, why I dropped by. This is a cool on-topic story, I think (thanks to James McGrath for recommending it):

Hi Eight Bits

Thanks enjoyed the story.

jmccr8

[Mr Walker]

13 hours ago, eight bits said:

So, I saw a cute link about a sci-fi story on the theme of how one alien civilization might react to Christian missionaries, and I see here's the thread, still alive. Then I drop in, and what do I find? The poor Piraha.

(1) It's very tricky to say that the Piraha's spirits aren't "gods," given the wide range of hypothetical beings which are called gods. The Piraha do practice spirit possesion, not so different from Voodoo, for example. Is a Voodoo loa a god or not?

And BTW, one academically respectable version of the "real historical Jesus" is that JC was a practitioner of spirit possession (Stevan L. Davies is the searchable advocate - yes, Stevan with an "a" not my usual typing quality). Paul certainly was.

(2) The "extreme empiricism" of the Piraha is actually attested in modern Western thought. The 20th Century Polish logician Jan Łukasiewicz gave a lecture in which he asked whether it would be proper to stop saying of any past event whose observable consequences were now inaccessible, that the event truly happened?

He leaned to "yes." Now take the idea, and situate it in a culture with no written records, no cell phone cameras, ... in  other words a setting where the observable consequences of any human-scale event would typically become indistinguishable from the background with the passing of those people who witnessed it personally.

Thank Jan Łukasiewicz for the principle; thank the Piraha for the application to their circumstances.

Oh, why I dropped by. This is a cool on-topic story, I think (thanks to James McGrath for recommending it):

http://infinitarian.blogspot.com/2018/12/dendrotheology.html

 

Good story

Lots of points 

I chose to take this from  it (although I also appreciated the deeper analogies and metaphors)

Imogen finds herself reminded that God has a sense of humour.

So does the author.

The etymology of Imogen is "innocent maiden" or "young girl "

 

Edited September 2, 2020 by Mr Walker

[HollyDolly]

With all the things to worry about on the planet Earth, why in the name of Jesus ,Mary and Joseph, the Holy Family, are people getting their drawers in an uproar over what aliens believe in. Who cares, not going to cure Covid-19 or help people get jobs,etc. people worry about the stupidest things. I'm Catholic, if an alien asked me about my faith, i would explain it the best I can, from what I remember the nuns taught me. And better yet, We could go out in the countryside around here, and i could show them different animals, plants etc. The whole great outdoors is God's creation, the same for whatever exists on their home planet.I also assume they have a sense of wrong and right.That there are those that wish to help mankind, and those that wantto harm us. That too comes from Godamongst other things.

[TashaMarie]

On 7/24/2020 at 9:24 PM, Eldorado said:

"Texas Republican State Rep. Jonathan Stickland issued a warning Friday, likely a response to a Wednesday New York Times article that quotes an astrophysicist and consultant to the Pentagon saying the U.S. is in possession of “off-world vehicles not made on this earth.”

"If aliens exist, Stickland declared, they will have to embrace Jesus Christ if they want to get into heaven."

Full report at "the new civil rights movement" dot com: Link

Huff Post: Link

"Off-world vehicles not made on this earth" on here (UM): Link

Plot twist Aliens came to Earth after escaping Heaven.

[jmccr8]

Would aliens trust us if we were the only world that needed to be saved and would they understand the concept or issues that would need to be defined? I would also wonder how if any god concept that had evolved or dissolved over time would influence a less evolved culture from their perspective.

jmccr8

[RoofGardener]

On 9/15/2020 at 12:41 AM, TashaMarie said:

Plot twist Aliens came to Earth after escaping Heaven.

Uh-oh, we might have a problem. 

Did they escape heaven, or where they cast out ? If the later, it means that.... aliens could be Demons ?  

[TashaMarie]

1 hour ago, RoofGardener said:

Uh-oh, we might have a problem. 

Did they escape heaven, or where they cast out ? If the later, it means that.... aliens could be Demons ?  

Escaped as only the worthy are supposed to get into Heaven why would they be cast out?

[RoofGardener]

20 minutes ago, TashaMarie said:

Escaped as only the worthy are supposed to get into Heaven why would they be cast out?

It is a biblical allusion. The only people who where kicked out of heaven where the rebellious angels - Lucifer and his Demons. 

[XenoFish]

God doesn't like competition and is jealous of other gods. 

[TashaMarie]

12 minutes ago, RoofGardener said:

It is a biblical allusion. The only people who where kicked out of heaven where the rebellious angels - Lucifer and his Demons. 

I thought they had bouncers at that gates of heaven checking peoples credentials?  If Lucifer and his demons managed to get passed them I think Heaven has a problem. 

[RoofGardener]

 

13 minutes ago, TashaMarie said:

I thought they had bouncers at that gates of heaven checking peoples credentials?  If Lucifer and his demons managed to get passed them I think Heaven has a problem. 

It did. Lucifer was part of the original management team, and hence tried to subvert heaven from within. However, God orchestrated a boardroom reshuffle with extreme prejudice, and Lucifer had all of his stock options withdrawn !!

[TashaMarie]

20 minutes ago, RoofGardener said:

 

It did. Lucifer was part of the original management team, and hence tried to subvert heaven from within. However, God orchestrated a boardroom reshuffle with extreme prejudice, and Lucifer had all of his stock options withdrawn !!

I do hope a full and fair investigation was conducted by an impartial party when this happened.  However it does not sound like it went down like that.

[+Desertrat56]

5 hours ago, XenoFish said:

God doesn't like competition and is jealous of other gods. 

Right!  And then in the next sentence remember, "There is only ONE god!"    

[RoofGardener]

5 hours ago, XenoFish said:

God doesn't like competition and is jealous of other gods. 

"Thou shalt not submit thy god to market forces"   

[XenoFish]

3 minutes ago, Desertrat56 said:

Right!  And then in the next sentence remember, "There is only ONE god!"    

What if the aliens have a better religion? Anyone think of that?