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Eldorado

Six people who 'died and came back to life'

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Liquid Gardens
1 hour ago, preacherman76 said:

You guys seem to drop your own standards of scientific evidence when it comes to the paranormal when it matches your world view. Like we hear so often, where is the proof?

I don't hear that very often actually, I hear 'where is the good evidence?'?  Since that can't be provided we're a long way from 'proof'.  Since the paranormal is not scientific in the slightest right now then there's no 'dropping' of any standards; that's like saying standards of scientific evidence are dropped when it comes to 'magic'.  Let's not cheat and let's have the hard work that is required for any other science already completed for 'the paranormal' before the complaints about 'standards of scientific evidence'.  'Testimonials' are not usually sufficient for that, and is currently about all we've got.

Interesting too that some of the stories in the OP conflict with one of the supposedly compelling parts of NDE: the commonality of experience.  "A garden", "nothingness", "cracking jokes" - there aren't the usual 'common' features of NDEs, so seems like we're back to oxygen deprivation/flood of neurochemicals causing dreams/hallucinations.  From what I've read there are some questions as to why some of the more common NDE experiences happen in the order they many times do, but that all of the effects of an NDE are well-documented as occurring in isolation (floating above your body, life review, seeing dead relatives, feelings of peace, etc) from myriad psychological causes.

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preacherman76
4 hours ago, Liquid Gardens said:

I don't hear that very often actually, I hear 'where is the good evidence?'?  Since that can't be provided we're a long way from 'proof'.  Since the paranormal is not scientific in the slightest right now then there's no 'dropping' of any standards; that's like saying standards of scientific evidence are dropped when it comes to 'magic'.  Let's not cheat and let's have the hard work that is required for any other science already completed for 'the paranormal' before the complaints about 'standards of scientific evidence'.  'Testimonials' are not usually sufficient for that, and is currently about all we've got.

Interesting too that some of the stories in the OP conflict with one of the supposedly compelling parts of NDE: the commonality of experience.  "A garden", "nothingness", "cracking jokes" - there aren't the usual 'common' features of NDEs, so seems like we're back to oxygen deprivation/flood of neurochemicals causing dreams/hallucinations.  From what I've read there are some questions as to why some of the more common NDE experiences happen in the order they many times do, but that all of the effects of an NDE are well-documented as occurring in isolation (floating above your body, life review, seeing dead relatives, feelings of peace, etc) from myriad psychological causes.

Hey LG, how have you been?

How can there be psychological causes from a brain that’s clinically dead? To me the most obvious and rational explanation is there can’t. 
 

Also, honestly I’ve never understood this, why because there are some variations of this experience does that mean it’s not actually happening? Why should every NDE be exactly the same? 
 

If we are looking for a scientific reason for these experiences I agree we have to go back, but not to theories that can’t scientifically hold water. And really what’s so unscientific about the idea that energy doesn’t die? That it moves from one form to another? 

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preacherman76
6 hours ago, XenoFish said:

The paranormal is crap. After the event occurs and people recount there experience with people filling in the blanks, all of it is nonsense. They were never truly dead in the first place. 

Even people they intentionally killed? Like people who had their blood removed and temperature dropped in order to perform some crazy operation?

Im glad I realize I don’t/can’t know such things. Not yet anyway. Dogma just seems so rigged. 

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XenoFish
3 minutes ago, preacherman76 said:

That it moves from one form to another? 

It does. It returns to nature. All those brain cells and synapses are going to rot away into goo. A goo that microbes will devour recycling you. That doesn't mean you will live as a conscious 'spirit' forever. That's ridiculous. 

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XenoFish
Just now, preacherman76 said:

Even people they intentionally killed? Like people who had their blood removed and temperature dropped in order to perform some crazy operation?

Im glad I realize I don’t/can’t know such things. Not yet anyway. Dogma just seems so rigged. 

They're still not dead. This is about NDE's not three month old corpses coming back to life. In order to have a NEAR death experience you must be NEAR death, not dead. 

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preacherman76
1 minute ago, XenoFish said:

It does. It returns to nature. All those brain cells and synapses are going to rot away into goo. A goo that microbes will devour recycling you. That doesn't mean you will live as a conscious 'spirit' forever. That's ridiculous. 

Well really this entire situation we find ourselves in is kinda ridiculous when you think about it. The statistical odds are beyond comprehension, yet here we are. 

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XenoFish
Just now, preacherman76 said:

Well really this entire situation we find ourselves in is kinda ridiculous when you think about it. The statistical odds are beyond comprehension, yet here we are. 

And if there is some afterlife then this life is just a waste of time. It makes no sense in having some immortality waiting while being trapped in a meat suit. I can think of one option that can solve that problem. 

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preacherman76
1 minute ago, XenoFish said:

They're still not dead. This is about NDE's not three month old corpses coming back to life. In order to have a NEAR death experience you must be NEAR death, not dead. 

I can understand why you believe that, but the science just doesn’t agree. When a person stops breathing, their heart stops beating, and their brain has no measurable activity, that person is dead. That’s not my opinion, that is science. Without intervention they would certainly stay as such 

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XenoFish
2 minutes ago, preacherman76 said:

I can understand why you believe that, but the science just doesn’t agree. When a person stops breathing, their heart stops beating, and their brain has no measurable activity, that person is dead. That’s not my opinion, that is science. Without intervention they would certainly stay as such 

Should we go to where my grandmother is buried, dig her up, jump start her heart and play 20 questions. I'm sure she's still fresh. 

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preacherman76
2 minutes ago, XenoFish said:

And if there is some afterlife then this life is just a waste of time. It makes no sense in having some immortality waiting while being trapped in a meat suit. I can think of one option that can solve that problem. 

Well that would be to say you, or anyone, has a full understanding of why we are here. Assuming there is a afterlife from our POV, I don’t think any of us are in a position to say what is pointless and what isn’t. 
 

I have a feeling you are starting to get dark about this. Well it’s more than a feeling. And I of all people can dig it, but I’ve come really far, and I just can’t go there. 

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preacherman76
1 minute ago, XenoFish said:

Should we go to where my grandmother is buried, dig her up, jump start her heart and play 20 questions. I'm sure she's still fresh. 

Ok man, have a good night. 

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XenoFish
1 minute ago, preacherman76 said:

Well that would be to say you, or anyone, has a full understanding of why we are here. Assuming there is a afterlife from our POV, I don’t think any of us are in a position to say what is pointless and what isn’t. 
 

I have a feeling you are starting to get dark about this. Well it’s more than a feeling. And I of all people can dig it, but I’ve come really far, and I just can’t go there. 

Yeah, the options for the afterlife are being a mind slave in heaven, being tortured in hell forever, getting recycled through reincarnations, or the eternal nothingness. Pick your poison. 

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XenoFish
1 minute ago, preacherman76 said:

Ok man, have a good night. 

You afraid of a little necromancy? I hated her anyway. 

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Kittens Are Jerks

If anyone was looking for proof of life after death, NDEs are not it.

NDEs take place in a near death context — a situation in which one’s life is in danger of being extinguished. They do not occur in individuals who have sustained either (1) irreversible cessation of circulatory and respiratory functions, or (2) irreversible cessation of all functions of the entire brain, including the brain stem. 

https://academic.oup.com/jlb/article/3/3/743/2327864

And there's this:

Not surprisingly, many have seized on NDEs as evidence of life after death, heaven and the existence of god. The descriptions of leaving the body and blissful unity with the universal seem almost scripted from religious beliefs about souls leaving the body at death and ascending toward heavenly bliss. But these experiences are shared across a broad range of cultures and religions so it’s not likely that they are all reflections of specific religious expectations. Instead, that commonality suggests that NDEs might arise from something more fundamental than religious or cultural expectations. Perhaps NDEs reflect changes in how the brain functions as we approach death.

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/new-clues-found-in-understanding-near-death-experiences/

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Liquid Gardens
46 minutes ago, preacherman76 said:

Hey LG, how have you been?

Can't complain, how you doing preacher?  Hopefully doing okay during the plague at least in a relative sense.

47 minutes ago, preacherman76 said:

How can there be psychological causes from a brain that’s clinically dead? To me the most obvious and rational explanation is there can’t. 

I think I'd need to see better evidence of the synchronization of an NDE with the exact points in time when someone is actually clinically dead.  It's totally understandable given the nature of these occurrences that this kind of evidence would be tough to provide, but it's not something then that still shouldn't be taken into account.

50 minutes ago, preacherman76 said:

Also, honestly I’ve never understood this, why because there are some variations of this experience does that mean it’s not actually happening? Why should every NDE be exactly the same? 

Part of the noteworthiness of NDEs is the semi-commonality of some of them; it seems like if everyone was having totally different wild but inconsistent experiences our default then would be to rack it up to the effects of a dying brain and not think there's something possibly afterlife-ish going on.  If NDE experiencers only encountered their dead relatives in one percent of cases I'm not sure it'd be noteworthy, since dead relatives are not unusual in dreams either.

55 minutes ago, preacherman76 said:

And really what’s so unscientific about the idea that energy doesn’t die? That it moves from one form to another? 

Nothing as far as I know, I think that's covered by a scientific Law if I remember correctly.  But when energy is converted from one form to another it usually loses attributes of the energy it converted from - sound produces some heat, but that doesn't mean there's any way to hear it.  

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preacherman76
1 hour ago, Kittens Are Jerks said:

If anyone was looking for proof of life after death, NDEs are not it.

NDEs take place in a near death context — a situation in which one’s life is in danger of being extinguished. They do not occur in individuals who have sustained either (1) irreversible cessation of circulatory and respiratory functions, or (2) irreversible cessation of all functions of the entire brain, including the brain stem. 

https://academic.oup.com/jlb/article/3/3/743/2327864

And there's this:

Not surprisingly, many have seized on NDEs as evidence of life after death, heaven and the existence of god. The descriptions of leaving the body and blissful unity with the universal seem almost scripted from religious beliefs about souls leaving the body at death and ascending toward heavenly bliss. But these experiences are shared across a broad range of cultures and religions so it’s not likely that they are all reflections of specific religious expectations. Instead, that commonality suggests that NDEs might arise from something more fundamental than religious or cultural expectations. Perhaps NDEs reflect changes in how the brain functions as we approach death.

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/new-clues-found-in-understanding-near-death-experiences/

Sup KAJ? Hope you are doing well. 
 

I’m not saying NDE’s are absolute proof of life after death, but I gotta seriously disagree with this sites conclusions. Especially the bit about it just being a religious script. So what if these experiences are shared across cultures? That I’d think would support the idea. Maybe this isn’t scripted from religious belief, but religious belief is a reflection of these experiences. This article starts with the assumption that all religious beliefs are wrong. 
 

For me, there is no way the brain is going to make up some massive crazy detailed hallucination to trick us into believing we are going to continue on when we aren’t. That would be to say the brain has a consciousness of its own apart from us. Often these brains don’t even have any measurable activity at the time. And if that is the case than the brain is far more amazing than we could probably ever conceive. 
 

To me after seeing people from every walk of life, from every belief or lack there of telling their NDE’s, and seeing the profound changes in their lives that come afterwards, NDE’s are probably as close as we will ever come to knowing if there is life after death. Nothing science has observed can conclude it isn’t so. 

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preacherman76
1 hour ago, Liquid Gardens said:

Can't complain, how you doing preacher?  Hopefully doing okay during the plague at least in a relative sense.

I’m good. Actually having some level of stress. Today I started my first (hopefully last) business adventure. Working out the bugs, and placing advertisements has been stressful. It’s also pretty exciting though. I’m still working at the same time, so I’m exhausted lol. 

Quote

I think I'd need to see better evidence of the synchronization of an NDE with the exact points in time when someone is actually clinically dead.  It's totally understandable given the nature of these occurrences that this kind of evidence would be tough to provide, but it's not something then that still shouldn't be taken into account.

I feel ya on that. I’ve searched tons of these. Many were very compelling, but one stood out the most to me. Unfortunately it’s been awhile and I can’t remember the woman’s name, I think Mary something. This women had to have brain surgery. If I recall correctly they lowered her body temp way below what you need to live, put ear buds in her ears that played some kinda noise to see if her brain had any activity. This chic was dead.
 

She knew everything. Conversations the doc and nurse had. Described surgical instruments he used, ect ect. Then went on to have this huge spiritual experience. The brain surgeon couldn’t explain it.

A few of us discussed this one on here a while back. I’ll see if I can find it. 

Quote

Part of the noteworthiness of NDEs is the semi-commonality of some of them; it seems like if everyone was having totally different wild but inconsistent experiences our default then would be to rack it up to the effects of a dying brain and not think there's something possibly afterlife-ish going on.  If NDE experiencers only encountered their dead relatives in one percent of cases I'm not sure it'd be noteworthy, since dead relatives are not unusual in dreams either.

I agree. The patterns on these cases are pretty amazing though, even with the variations. 

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Nothing as far as I know, I think that's covered by a scientific Law if I remember correctly.  But when energy is converted from one form to another it usually loses attributes of the energy it converted from - sound produces some heat, but that doesn't mean there's any way to hear it.  

Yeah this is where our lack of understanding consciousness pretty much brings us to a dead end. How it moves forward after death, if it does at all really can’t be known. Unless we assume these experiences are real. Personally I think they hold some water, but it doesn’t mean that we don’t eventually fizzle out, so to speak. 

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Kittens Are Jerks
38 minutes ago, preacherman76 said:

Sup KAJ? Hope you are doing well. 

I'm doing great, thanks. Hope you and your family are also well. I just read about your business venture. Wishing you great success with it!

42 minutes ago, preacherman76 said:

I’m not saying NDE’s are absolute proof of life after death, but I gotta seriously disagree with this sites conclusions. Especially the bit about it just being a religious script. So what if these experiences are shared across cultures? That I’d think would support the idea. Maybe this isn’t scripted from religious belief, but religious belief is a reflection of these experiences. This article starts with the assumption that all religious beliefs are wrong. 

They're actually saying that because these experiences span many cultures and religions, NDEs are not likely reflections of religious expectations (although people, depending on their beliefs, may attach religious significance to them). As NDEs are not limited to religious people, how can they be a reflection of anything religious to begin with?

47 minutes ago, preacherman76 said:

For me, there is no way the brain is going to make up some massive crazy detailed hallucination to trick us into believing we are going to continue on when we aren’t. That would be to say the brain has a consciousness of its own apart from us. Often these brains don’t even have any measurable activity at the time. And if that is the case than the brain is far more amazing than we could probably ever conceive. 

Given the drug ketamine, brains did exactly that. Other drugs that cause hallucinations similar to NDEs are LSD and DMT. Whilst more studies are obviously necessary, there does seem to be evidence that NDEs may reflect changes in the same chemical system in the brain that is targeted by drugs like ketamine.

As for no measurable activity in brains, you might find this article interesting:

https://www.nationalgeographic.com/science/phenomena/2013/08/12/in-dying-brains-signs-of-heightened-consciousness/

53 minutes ago, preacherman76 said:

To me after seeing people from every walk of life, from every belief or lack there of telling their NDE’s, and seeing the profound changes in their lives that come afterwards, NDE’s are probably as close as we will ever come to knowing if there is life after death. Nothing science has observed can conclude it isn’t so. 

There's no question the experience is profound (often described as more real than real) and in many cases, life-changing. But people who've taken certain drugs have reported similar reactions after their experiences.

One last article. This one raises some of the same questions you have, and provides a more in-depth look at all of the possibilities.

https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2015/04/the-science-of-near-death-experiences/386231/

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Liquid Gardens
1 hour ago, preacherman76 said:

This women had to have brain surgery. If I recall correctly they lowered her body temp way below what you need to live, put ear buds in her ears that played some kinda noise to see if her brain had any activity. This chic was dead.
 

She knew everything. Conversations the doc and nurse had. Described surgical instruments he used, ect ect. Then went on to have this huge spiritual experience. The brain surgeon couldn’t explain it.

A few of us discussed this one on here a while back. I’ll see if I can find it. 

It might be Pam Reynolds, she's mentioned in the last link of kittens post at the Atlantic, it fits what you're describing.  But it also says in that article, "But none of Reynolds’s reported veridical perceptions happened while her EEG recorded a flat line. They all took place before or after, when she was under anesthetic but very much alive.".  That's the trouble with these stories, the crucial bits seem so unverifiable just by the very nature of the experience; medical personnel who corroborate the timing of things the NDE experiencer remembers are doing so after the fact and concerning details they are not necessarily supposed to be focusing on at that moment.

I like the idea of putting pictures or things up high in the room out of sight but somewhere they could be seen if you were floating above a body.  I think I heard of one even hanging a laptop with the screen facing the ceiling with an image on it which is clever, but haven't heard of any results yet, obviously it's tough with such a rare occurrence.

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Poncho_Peanatus

I find NDE fascinating, for two reasons, first if real there is a afterlife...then woohoo the life dont end with the body and there is Disney land for free waiting for me :tu: or frigging Freddy Krueger :devil::wacko:

Second, regardless if real or not, they are able to crack down the process and chemically repeat it like creating a super drug that can emulate these "spiritual" experiences that would be a superbely effective drug to use for depression/PTSD ect treatment, maybe even recreational....perhaps combined with virtual reality or what else.

But IMO to verify the survival of consciousness after dead, what kind of verification method do we have? I dont know brainstorming now: the laptop as the user ' Liquid Garden' mention is a possibility or more sofisticately identification of the frequency of brainwaves outside the body or a hotspot first leaving and then moving back in the body? what do you guys say?

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Artaxerxes
Posted (edited)

What a great kindness it is that we don't have to stay in our physical bodies till it is rotten, decaying, and stinking dead?  That the soul is so loosely attached to the body that when we come close to death the soul is able to move quickly away from the body so it doesn't have to experience the real horror of the actual death?   I have read so many near death experience descriptions where they jumped out of the body before the real impact came?   I am thankful that I won't have to stay in my body waiting for it to decay and rot in order to move on into the Light.  What a great blessing that is.  

Edited by Artaxerxes
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