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WVK

Seattle move to abolish police department

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quiXilver
20 minutes ago, seanjo said:

Thousands of Black Men are killed by other Black men, where's your concern over that?

Look into the resources devoted to bringing justice to these cases, versus those devoted to white victims and you'll have your answer.  The problem is systemic.  The solution is systemic shift.

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Jerry Gallo
4 hours ago, quiXilver said:

Look into the resources devoted to bringing justice to these cases, versus those devoted to white victims and you'll have your answer.  The problem is systemic.  The solution is systemic shift.

Most of these problems occur in cities that have been ruled by Democrat mayors and city councils/boards of aldermen for decades. So we agree the problem is systemic, when was the last time someone pointed their racism BS at their own leaders who allow this to occur election after election? Anyone with an IQ over 50 can point fingers, when will an adult step up and call out the elected leadership?

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South Alabam
4 hours ago, seanjo said:

Thousands of Black Men are killed by other Black men, where's your concern over that?

They aren't wearing a badge.

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Jerry Gallo
1 hour ago, South Alabam said:

They aren't wearing a badge.

And thus, who cares, no opportunity for activism in that, correct?

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Tatetopa
8 hours ago, WVK said:

What are the goals (and cost) of reorganization,  For example a goal of less then 9 unarmed black per year killed by police 

You can focus on that one if you like.  There might be a goal for better resolution of police encounters with mentally ill citizens.  There might be  a goal for dispersing forces into more community policing offices.  There might be a goal of crime reduction.  We have been doing the same thing for generations and have one of the biggest per capita prison populations in the world, 655 per 100,000.  We beat out El Salvador and Turkmenistan the #2 and #3 contenders.  I can't believe that American citizens are the most lawless in the world, we seem to be pretty good people on the whole, so maybe we can try something different.

Some of the things police currently do might be better done by someone else to save police for what they are best fitted to handle.

Or we could talk about cost savings and personal responsibility.  Police on overtime providing security for events might not be the best use of tax money.  Sporting events and concerts could hire private security and the cost could be added to the ticket price  saving the tax payers money.

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Tatetopa

If you want sensationalism and are not interested in solving problems, you can find about any headline you want.

https://www.salon.com/2017/11/19/republicans-do-not-think-domestic-violence-is-important_partner/

Republicans don't think domestic violence is important

What will it take for white conservative men to start caring about violence against women?

Maybe we would accomplish more by trying to solve common problems.

 

 

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WVK
9 hours ago, Tatetopa said:

You can focus on that one if you like.  There might be a goal for better resolution of police encounters with mentally ill citizens.  There might be  a goal for dispersing forces into more community policing offices.  There might be a goal of crime reduction.  We have been doing the same thing for generations and have one of the biggest per capita prison populations in the world, 655 per 100,000.  We beat out El Salvador and Turkmenistan the #2 and #3 contenders.  I can't believe that American citizens are the most lawless in the world, we seem to be pretty good people on the whole, so maybe we can try something different.

Some of the things police currently do might be better done by someone else to save police for what they are best fitted to handle.

Or we could talk about cost savings and personal responsibility.  Police on overtime providing security for events might not be the best use of tax money.  Sporting events and concerts could hire private security and the cost could be added to the ticket price  saving the tax payers money.

Yes worthy goals.  But isn't the rioting based on the presumtion that the police are murdering blacks by the truckloads. Some on this forum have assumed such.

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Jerry Gallo
10 hours ago, Tatetopa said:

If you want sensationalism and are not interested in solving problems, you can find about any headline you want.

https://www.salon.com/2017/11/19/republicans-do-not-think-domestic-violence-is-important_partner/

Republicans don't think domestic violence is important

What will it take for white conservative men to start caring about violence against women?

Maybe we would accomplish more by trying to solve common problems.

Domestic violence is surely an issue that is need of address. But this article is such a steaming pile of horse squeeze. For real, the way a leftists mind works, one can only conclude that they are either so completely delusional to facts or they are purposely dishonest in an effort to convince the many who won't do their own research to see if what they hear is true. Anyone who reads this article and says "right on" without asking themselves some questions is more interested in the activism than the subject itself. To whit...

Bill Clinton and Joe Biden as champions of women's rights? You've got to be kidding me. And while Obama is likely clean, his people knew about Epstein and did nothing.

Mass shooters and domestic violence are attached at the hip? Adam Lanza killed his mother as part of his insanity, not a rational desire to abuse others. 

Independent men and women were closer in attitude to Republicans than Democrats. No mention of that in the article. Same with Hispanic men who were closer to white men...no mention there.

The always included buzzwords of reproductive rights (abortion), misogyny and gun bans (hinted at by tying mass shooters to the topic).

Most critically, the links point to one on one abuse in the home, yet the focus on perpetrators in the article is on mass shooters...apples to hockey pucks.

You want a white conservative male on board with the crusade against DV, many are on board. The issue requires pinpointing who is doing the majority of the abusing, why they are doing so, and what is being done about it. If black and Hispanic women are more often the victims, does it not make sense that the majority of abusers are black and Hispanic males...more often than not in poor, urban communities? Once again, if the facts bear that out, it all goes back to Democrat led poverty centers where the issues are like kryptonite to Superman in discussion here. The subject has been offered a dozen times here, but it doesn't get acknowledged because the left cannot get past their ideology to call out their own. Doing so, in their minds, weakens the overall message and we can't have that. So, we come full circle to what I said above, activism seems to be the sole focus, victims are simply people that can be exploited for political gain.

Solving common problems starts by being honest and non-partisan about them...or completely opposite of what this article does.

 

 

 

 

 

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Jerry Gallo
11 hours ago, Tatetopa said:

You can focus on that one if you like.  There might be a goal for better resolution of police encounters with mentally ill citizens.  There might be  a goal for dispersing forces into more community policing offices.  There might be a goal of crime reduction.  We have been doing the same thing for generations and have one of the biggest per capita prison populations in the world, 655 per 100,000.  We beat out El Salvador and Turkmenistan the #2 and #3 contenders.  I can't believe that American citizens are the most lawless in the world, we seem to be pretty good people on the whole, so maybe we can try something different.

Some of the things police currently do might be better done by someone else to save police for what they are best fitted to handle.

Or we could talk about cost savings and personal responsibility.  Police on overtime providing security for events might not be the best use of tax money.  Sporting events and concerts could hire private security and the cost could be added to the ticket price  saving the tax payers money.

One major contributor to criminal behavior is single parent households. Which party has long been a proponent of drifting away from religion and the nuclear family? Solving problems...even identifying them, starts at the beginning of the cycle, not at the end (i.e. focusing in prison stats and policing the mentally ill). At some point, blaming the components of law and order is like blaming the spoon and bowl for a bad cup of soup. Start with the chef, find out of he/she are given the proper ingredients and has the skills necessary, THEN focus on other factors if you haven't solved things in those rare instances the chef wasn't the issue.

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Tatetopa
4 hours ago, Jerry Gallo said:

Solving common problems starts by being honest and non-partisan about them...or completely opposite of what this article does.

Exactly true Jerry.  That is why I posted it.  And that is why I added this explanation.

16 hours ago, Tatetopa said:

If you want sensationalism and are not interested in solving problems, you can find about any headline you want.

It is a very clear to you that this is a steaming pile of misinformation.  What does not seem so clear to you is that equally steaming and inaccurate information comes from the Right.  All of it, both left and right is put out there not to inform but to pander to specific groups and sell advertising.  

For every steaming pile you see from the left, there is an equally steaming pile from the right.

Portland is a classic example.  I could not find any factual accurate coverage of what happened in Portland on any national news feed.  The only reason I know that is from living on the outskirts, following local news and talking to a few acquaintances and our minister who were downtown at various times.  If it had happened in St. Louis, I would not have a source of accurate local information.  It was not all moms and vets protecting our children, free food and kumbayaa.  There was also ugliness, violence and some people who were there exclusively for the violence.  Both side want to take a chunk of the whole that reinforces their views and discard the rest.

 

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Tatetopa
5 hours ago, Jerry Gallo said:

Solving problems...even identifying them, starts at the beginning of the cycle, not at the end (i.e. focusing in prison stats and policing the mentally ill)

That sure is true. That would be a place of agreement to start from.  Seemingly without further thought or collection of evidence, you have decided what the problem is and why the other guys are to blame for it.

Sure makes sense not to blame the spoon or bowl.  So start with the chef.  What is your suggestion for corrective action if the chef does not have the proper ingredients or instruction?

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Tatetopa
7 hours ago, WVK said:

Yes worthy goals.  But isn't the rioting based on the presumtion that the police are murdering blacks by the truckloads. Some on this forum have assumed such

Does it take a truckload for it to be wrong and noticed?

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ian hacktorp
33 minutes ago, Tatetopa said:

Does it take a truckload for it to be wrong and noticed?

No but it probably takes proof that it happens disproportionately to one group over another in order for it to justify killing, burning, looting, and economically destroying our cites.

Don't you think?

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Autochthon1990
On 8/1/2020 at 12:56 PM, seanjo said:

Thousands of Black Men are killed by other Black men, where's your concern over that?

In comprehensive education, criminal justice, housing, healthcare and other reforms along with social programs designed to help people out of poverty and into a decent life. 

Its just, well, when we empower police to be able to legally bust a cap in someone's ass, we want to make damn sure that the ones we trust with that power aren't abusing it. The police are given a LOT of trust by society, they're given powers and authority that nobody else has. And if they prove unworthy of that, the power either needs to be taken away, restricted, or the entire organization needs to be replaced with individuals better suited to the responsibilities that come with such power. 

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Jerry Gallo
15 hours ago, Tatetopa said:

What does not seem so clear to you is that equally steaming and inaccurate information comes from the Right. 

For every steaming pile you see from the left, there is an equally steaming pile from the right.

Portland is a classic example.  I could not find any factual accurate coverage of what happened in Portland on any national news feed.  The only reason I know that is from living on the outskirts, following local news and talking to a few acquaintances and our minister who were downtown at various times.  If it had happened in St. Louis, I would not have a source of accurate local information.  It was not all moms and vets protecting our children, free food and kumbayaa.  There was also ugliness, violence and some people who were there exclusively for the violence.  Both side want to take a chunk of the whole that reinforces their views and discard the rest.

Of course the right puts out their fair share of partisan nonsense. Here's the difference. I didn't attack Salon or AlterNet, Liz Posner, or the cheesy sources her conclusions were based on. I attacked the points she made and referenced why I had an issue. In response, you address nothing I posted, just drag the right into it trying to equate the two. I abhor trendy new slogans and cliches, but the left seems to have created one they call whataboutism that is now frequently used by both sides. That is what you did in your response. Recall back when I used Judicial Watch as a link to pertinent info...they were slammed for being biased and thus had no credibility. People acknowledged they wouldn't even open or read the article. Just summary dismissal. I opened yours, read every word, clicked every link, and explained why I had an issue.

But, back to Portland. You have one poster on here taking a "let it burn" approach. You have another going out of their way to tell us Antifa doesn't exist, certainly isn't a thing in Portland. When people let the inmates run the asylum by burning property, when people openly deny what we absolutely know is fact...we're completely off the rails. And when you are the boots on the ground who can confirm Antifa absolutely exists and are the ones perpetuating that ugliness and violence, but you don't call out the person denying it, what am I supposed to conclude from that? I'm 100% sure that most of the people in Portland are more or less peaceful with good intentions. But, they let the anarchists do what they do and continue to put themselves in harms way being associated with them each day, what am I supposed to conclude from that? Can tell you this, there is no way I can conclude anyone on the left wants to solve actual problems, as their words indicate they simply enjoy the chaos for what it means in the bigger picture. 

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Jerry Gallo
16 hours ago, Tatetopa said:

That sure is true. That would be a place of agreement to start from.  Seemingly without further thought or collection of evidence, you have decided what the problem is and why the other guys are to blame for it.

Sure makes sense not to blame the spoon or bowl.  So start with the chef.  What is your suggestion for corrective action if the chef does not have the proper ingredients or instruction?

Make no mistake, this wasn't a conclusion formed in a moment or on a whim. The issues with urban crime and the reason for a lot of it is well documented by people within the urban community.

Finally, a salient question. My suggestion for corrective action...you take all that money and effort from Soros, Steyer, Gates, Cuban and all the wealthy liberal elites in sports and entertainment and focus it on mentoring teenagers in crime ridden areas. Focus on things like safe sex, being responsible for the children you bear not only financially, but as a role model. Teach them crafts like carpentry, electrical and plumbing. Once they've mastered some form of expertise, teach them small business skills so that one day, they can start their own home improvement or home building. Provide them opportunity to choose a life of participant in the local economy, not just a recipient. Get them involved as police, firefighters and EMT's in their community. Start working with local LE to hinder the culture of gangs and drugs and violence rather than just LOLing at these YouTube videos of beatdowns. Be willing to admit the decades of leadership has failed these communities generationally. The first step of all this is being honest enough to admit the biggest problem with crime is the criminal. Then start addressing how to prevent as many criminals as possible. The soup may be bad for a while, the chef may need to be replaced by someone with more skill eventually. What we mustn't do is continue to back the chef while we blame the restaurant owner, the customers and every other thing. Not that those areas are free from blame, they are just not the cause.

That no one has bothered with this approach...that they donate their money to continued political power and maintained the finger pointing and chants of racism only confirms that this is more about the activism than the alleged focus of the activism. Calling that out from my side is always going to be met with cynicism and anger...which is why people from your side have to do this if they want the problems fixed. Or don't and we can have this same conversation in another decade or two election cycles.

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seanjo
Posted (edited)
9 hours ago, Autochthon1990 said:

In comprehensive education, criminal justice, housing, healthcare and other reforms along with social programs designed to help people out of poverty and into a decent life. 

Its just, well, when we empower police to be able to legally bust a cap in someone's ass, we want to make damn sure that the ones we trust with that power aren't abusing it. The police are given a LOT of trust by society, they're given powers and authority that nobody else has. And if they prove unworthy of that, the power either needs to be taken away, restricted, or the entire organization needs to be replaced with individuals better suited to the responsibilities that come with such power. 

I believe 9 unarmed black people were shot by police last year in the whole of the US. How many have died as a result of these protests, not including the continuing covid spike in the US?

31148992-8556681-image-a-2_1595594595397.jpg

Edited by seanjo
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seanjo
On 8/1/2020 at 8:17 PM, quiXilver said:

Look into the resources devoted to bringing justice to these cases, versus those devoted to white victims and you'll have your answer.  The problem is systemic.  The solution is systemic shift.

I'd say lots of resources are used because the population of prisons is mainly black men. The solution is to stop pandering to the left and bring the return of family values with a male role model.

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Tatetopa
6 hours ago, Jerry Gallo said:

Focus on things like safe sex, being responsible for the children you bear not only financially, but as a role model. Teach them crafts like carpentry, electrical and plumbing. Once they've mastered some form of expertise, teach them small business skills so that one day, they can start their own home improvement or home building. Provide them opportunity to choose a life of participant in the local economy, not just a recipient. Get them involved as police, firefighters and EMT's in their community. Start working with local LE to hinder the culture of gangs and drugs and violence rather than just LOLing at these YouTube videos of beatdowns.

It seems so basic, but it is brilliant.

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Jerry Gallo
On 8/3/2020 at 1:19 PM, Tatetopa said:

It seems so basic, but it is brilliant.

I know that some of the items have been on your action list, together we could likely expand it into a much more comprehensive plan. This is why I detest liberalism and most who follow it though. It's not rocket science, would imagine there are many folks out there who could do better than what's been done for decades. And a back and forth on how to address urban issues (which would likely be applicable in the poorest white rural small towns where drug use and poverty and the side effects of such are just as common, but not as prevalent in numbers) is far more important to our culture than the traditional political acrimony of "Trump sucks, Biden's senile" - but most leftists avoid the subject like the plague. And it may be true that Republicans are no better...but that cannot be assumed when they haven't had a say in most major urban metro areas in years or longer. Hence my conclusion, my why I conclude, that the appearance of something is more critical than the actual something. Exploitation of minorities for personal gain. No one even bothers to address the issue anymore, certainly don't hold their own to any reasonable standard.

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ian hacktorp
Posted (edited)

Peak Seattle idiocy?

I doubt it:

Antifa Protesters Sue Seattle Over 'Forced' Armor Upgrades

Quote

A lawsuit has been filed against the city of Seattle by several protesters, who claim that the Seattle Police Department's "indiscriminate" use of chemical and less-lethal crowd control measures forced them to buy "expensive" protective gear in order to withstand the tactical response to their violent resistance, according to KIRO7.

antifa%20guys1.jpg

https://www.zerohedge.com/political/antifa-protesters-sue-seattle-over-forced-armor-upgrades

Edited by ian hacktorp
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OverSword
Quote

 

Seattle City Council rejects pair of proposals to slash police budget by half

The Seattle City Council on Wednesday rebuffed two proposals to slash funding to the Seattle Police Department but the panel did approve a plan to dismantle the agency Navigation Team, which works with the homeless, and trim the pay for some of the department's top brass, including Chief Carmen Best.

The council's Budget Committee was considering specific amendments to the police department's budget when it took several votes, chief among them were two measures by Councilwoman Kshama Sawant: one of the amendments would have immediately chopped 50 percent of the department's budget while a second measure would have slashed funding to the agency starting in November.

 

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WVK
On 8/3/2020 at 6:57 AM, Jerry Gallo said:

. . Focus on things like safe sex, being responsible for the children you bear not only financially, but as a role model. Teach them crafts like carpentry, electrical and plumbing. Once they've mastered some form of expertise, teach them small business skills so that one day, they can start their own home improvement or home building. Provide them opportunity to choose a life of participant in the local economy, not just a recipient. Get them involved as police, firefighters and EMT's in their community. Start working with local LE to hinder the culture of gangs and drugs and violence rather than just LOLing at these YouTube videos of beatdowns.

'You can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink'   All this is going to require a change in culture, wheres that coming from? Black conservtives have been saying this for years to no avail.

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