Astrology and Life

[+Desertrat56]

10 hours ago, ChrLzs said:

And the answer is .... no.  Becoming an expert on leprechauns and faeries, doesn't make them any more real.  Don't get me wrong, astrology is mostly harmless fun and in many ways it gave birth to modern astronomy.  But if people start to pretend it is real, and charge money, and give advice based on it.. then I'm afraid that crosses the line into fraud.  And it can be hurtful or downright dangerous fraud... 

And that is another difference of a real astrologer and a fake one.  A real astrologer will explain the chart but never give advice about anything.

[+Desertrat56]

45 minutes ago, Emma_Acid said:

i still don't understand. If the application of the "knowledge of astronomy" and "correct calculations" meant anything then astrology would be a real science.

You can't claim they are valid and then leave the whole question of whether or not it is a real science open.

If it isn't a real science, then what are the calculations for?

The reason it is denigrated is because so many use it to make decisions, which is not the point of it, never was.  Too many people want someone else to tell them what to do so they ask self proclaimed psychics and astrologers.  The real astrologers do not do it to give anyone advice.  It can be like a map, but there are too many variables for it to be more than a suggested predictor.  Done correctly it is as real a science as psychology.  And we can have that discussion some where else if you want.

[Emma_Acid]

26 minutes ago, Desertrat56 said:

The reason it is denigrated is because so many use it to make decisions, which is not the point of it, never was.  Too many people want someone else to tell them what to do so they ask self proclaimed psychics and astrologers.  The real astrologers do not do it to give anyone advice.  It can be like a map, but there are too many variables for it to be more than a suggested predictor.  Done correctly it is as real a science as psychology.  And we can have that discussion some where else if you want.

So - what is it then and how does it work?

[+Desertrat56]

1 minute ago, Emma_Acid said:

So - what is it then and how does it work?

There are archetypes that are used to represent the planets, moon and certain stars, the position of those are calculated based on a birth date, time and place (because time is tied to place).  I don't know the mechanics of it, but I have seen what it takes to create an accurate birth chart.  It is very interesting and if all the variables are accounted for the pattern of one's life may be perceived, but it is hard to account for all the variables.  That's why the hororscope in the newspaper is just entertainment, has nothing to do with anyone's reality, too general.  And that is why no one could give advice based on an astrological chart.  Just like with psychology, there is bias and ignored parameters, also a bunch of crazy people pretending to help others (not all, some actually are helpful, but not most).  My opinion is that there is some science misused in both.

[kartikg]

20 hours ago, Emma_Acid said:

Again, this makes no sense. You say "they can't be compared", but then your entire point is based on comparing them.

Like my post above - if it is real, then what are they doing that is different to it being fraudulent? It is all made up, then what does it matter if the astrologer's preparation is a ritual or making some eggs? If the whole thing is nonsense, then so are the books and rituals.

It's could be all made up, but you still need to read up those made up texts, I am talking about fraudsters who have not read anything on astrology or can't read horoscopes. They pretend like that they have full knowledge. 

[Rlyeh]

On 8/10/2020 at 4:43 AM, kartikg said:

I have been cheated by astrologers before, not a huge amount though, but I want to clarify that they were fraudsters and not really astrologers, I have also paid some amount online for certain questions and there answers did not turn out to be true. Also on this web site I have asked for readings, some turned out to be pretty good and I have thanked them too.

So you paid for make believe BS but never got it?

[Rlyeh]

On 8/11/2020 at 12:01 AM, Desertrat56 said:

The amount of math that they use as well as their knowledge of astronomy and astrology.  It is not an easy thing to do if you really do the work.  It takes many hours to make the correct calculations.  And then a few hours to write the report in to an understandable form for the client.  If you get a quick answer it is not a real astrologer.

As for whether it is a real science, that is another question.

Correct calculations?  That implies they have standard formulas and equations that can be tested.

[Rlyeh]

20 hours ago, Desertrat56 said:

There are archetypes that are used to represent the planets, moon and certain stars, the position of those are calculated based on a birth date, time and place (because time is tied to place).  I don't know the mechanics of it, but I have seen what it takes to create an accurate birth chart.  It is very interesting and if all the variables are accounted for the pattern of one's life may be perceived, but it is hard to account for all the variables.  That's why the hororscope in the newspaper is just entertainment, has nothing to do with anyone's reality, too general.  And that is why no one could give advice based on an astrological chart.  Just like with psychology, there is bias and ignored parameters, also a bunch of crazy people pretending to help others (not all, some actually are helpful, but not most).  My opinion is that there is some science misused in both.

So basically astrology is like trying to calculate the age of the universe from the Bible.

[XenoFish]

45 minutes ago, Rlyeh said:

Correct calculations?  That implies they have standard formulas and equations that can be tested.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Numerology

Basically this.

[+Desertrat56]

2 hours ago, Rlyeh said:

Correct calculations?  That implies they have standard formulas and equations that can be tested.

Yes, they do.

[+Desertrat56]

2 hours ago, Rlyeh said:

So basically astrology is like trying to calculate the age of the universe from the Bible.

No, it has nothing to do with the Bible.  Astrology has been around longer than the bible.  And it has nothing to do with calculating the age of the universe.

[Chronus]

10 minutes ago, Desertrat56 said:

No, it has nothing to do with the Bible.  Astrology has been around longer than the bible.  And it has nothing to do with calculating the age of the universe.

Astrology is a pseudoscience that claims divine information about human affairs and terrestrial events by studying the movements and relative positions of celestial objects. Wikipedia

 

 

I think it means it can tell the future roughly? I am probably wrong though.

[+Desertrat56]

9 minutes ago, Chronus said:

Astrology is a pseudoscience that claims divine information about human affairs and terrestrial events by studying the movements and relative positions of celestial objects. Wikipedia

 

 

I think it means it can tell the future roughly? I am probably wrong though.

You are mostly wrong.  It has become popular to be used that way but it isn't really useful or accurate unless someone spent too many years on one chart, and by the time all the variables are accounted for the future has happened.

Edited August 12, 2020 by Desertrat56

[Rlyeh]

21 minutes ago, Desertrat56 said:

Yes, they do.

Can you cite these equations?  How do you test them?

[+Desertrat56]

1 minute ago, Rlyeh said:

Can you cite these equations?  How do you test them?

No, but if you look up astrological ephimerus you will see how complex it is.  (I may not have spelled it correctly)

[Rlyeh]

20 minutes ago, Desertrat56 said:

No, it has nothing to do with the Bible.  Astrology has been around longer than the bible.  And it has nothing to do with calculating the age of the universe.

"So basically astrology is like trying to calculate the age of the universe from the Bible."

Applying mathematics to superstition hoping to yield something meaningful.

[Rlyeh]

6 minutes ago, Desertrat56 said:

No, but if you look up astrological ephimerus you will see how complex it is.  (I may not have spelled it correctly)

Ephemeris is celestial navigation, you don't need astrology for that.  

[Rlyeh]

2 hours ago, XenoFish said:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Numerology

Basically this.

Adding up numbers this way doesn't mean anything.

To add up the numbers corresponding to the letters in your name only yields the total value of the numbers.  There is no other mathematical meaning.

Edited August 12, 2020 by Rlyeh

[toast]

On 8/11/2020 at 4:21 PM, Desertrat56 said:

And that is another difference of a real astrologer and a fake one.  A real astrologer will explain the chart but never give advice about anything.

If 20 different astrologers will explain the same chart to the same person, will the explanation always be the same?

[+Desertrat56]

1 minute ago, toast said:

If 20 different astrologers will explain the same chart to the same person, will the explanation always be the same?

Never.  Every human is bias and has a different focus and understanding.

[toast]

4 minutes ago, Desertrat56 said:

Never.  Every human is bias and has a different focus and understanding.

Means, astrology can never be proven by scientific methods.

[+Desertrat56]

3 minutes ago, toast said:

Means, astrology can never be proven by scientific methods.

Just like psychology.  But people think it is real.

[Will Due]

11 minutes ago, Desertrat56 said:

Just like psychology.  But people think it is real.

 

I'm surprised you responded that way.

Do you really think some things we do aren't based on the reality of them being purely psychological?

I think they most certainly are. 

Perhaps getting beyond them being psychological and rather automatic might be one of the biggest hurdles to overcome. I know in my own experience it's often a problem in how I think.

 

 

[+Desertrat56]

5 minutes ago, Will do said:

 

I'm surprised you responded that way.

Do you really think some things we do aren't based on the reality of them being purely psychological?

I think they most certainly are. 

Perhaps getting beyond them being psychological and rather automatic might be one of the biggest hurdles to overcome. I know in my own experience it's often a problem in how I think.

 

 

I think people who study psychology generally do it in order to learn better how to control and manipulate people or how to hide their believed psychological issues.  I know that is not always the case, but it is the norm rather than the exception AND the research that is used is not always scientific.  Psychology as it is used today is not real science.  It could be, but it caters to the people I describe and the pharmaceutical companies, not science.

As for some things we do that some attribute to "purely psychological" are bias, there is no such thing as "purely psychological".  Too many variables that are  not accounted for.

 

Edited August 12, 2020 by Desertrat56

[Will Due]

2 minutes ago, Desertrat56 said:

I think people who study psychology generally do it in order to learn better how to control and manipulate people or how to hide their believed psychological issues.  I know that is not always the case, but it is the norm rather than the exception AND the research that is used is not always scientific.  Psychology as it is used today is not real science.  It could be, but it caters to the people I describe and the pharmaceutical companies, not science.

As for some things we do that some attribute to "purely psychological" are bias, there is no such thing as "purely psychological".  Too many variables that are  not accounted for.

 

 

I agree.

Perhaps instead of applying psychology to manipulate or attempt to control someone else, it might be better used to control and change oneself.