Popular Post Carnoferox Posted August 13, 2020 Popular Post #1 Share Posted August 13, 2020 (edited) I was visiting the Old Trail Museum in Choteau, Montana today when this artifact caught my eye. Allegedly this Roman bronze coin was found in a Native American teepee ring at the base of Ear Mountain in 1940. It was supposedly confirmed as dating to the reign of Emperor Hadrian (117-138 AD) by T.T. Belote of the Smithsonian. The only information I could find about it was the museum signage itself and a 1941 newspaper article from the Choteau Acantha. I was surprised that I'd never heard of it before and that it isn't a more well-known OOPART. Of course I doubt that it's evidence for Pre-Columbian Roman contact; more likely it was brought over by the Spanish and traded up from Mexico along the Old North Trail. I'm far from an expert on Roman coins or Montana history though so I'd be interested in hearing others' thoughts. http://montananewspapers.org/lccn/sn85053032/1941-02-20/ed-1/seq-1/#date1=1873&city=Choteau&rows=20&words=coin+Roman&searchType=basic&sequence=0&index=1&date2=2018&proxtext=roman+coin&page=1 Edited August 13, 2020 by Carnoferox 9 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post jaylemurph Posted August 13, 2020 Popular Post #2 Share Posted August 13, 2020 Roman coins turn up all over the place. Rather the same way humans do. Probably some link between those two things. —Jaylemurph 6 1 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hankenhunter Posted August 13, 2020 #3 Share Posted August 13, 2020 (edited) They've been found in Canada. I was wrong as carnoferox pointed out Edited August 13, 2020 by Hankenhunter 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carnoferox Posted August 13, 2020 Author #4 Share Posted August 13, 2020 (edited) 1 minute ago, Hankenhunter said: They've been found in canada also. https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.express.co.uk/news/history/628827/ANCIENT-ROMANS-America-eerie-discovery-change-history%23:~:text%3DThey%20say%20the%20find%20will,on%20an%20island%20in%20Canada.&ved=2ahUKEwiw3_L0o5frAhX7HzQIHbpPA1cQFjABegQICxAH&usg=AOvVaw0xHvIdFf6oy4OypGgcIbZ3 That was confirmed to be a hoax, Andy White has documented the whole "Swordgate" incident. https://www.andywhiteanthropology.com/fake-hercules-swords.html Edited August 13, 2020 by Carnoferox 7 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hankenhunter Posted August 13, 2020 #5 Share Posted August 13, 2020 1 minute ago, Carnoferox said: That was confirmed to be a hoax, Andy White has documented the whole "Swordgate" incident. https://www.andywhiteanthropology.com/fake-hercules-swords.html Thank you for the correction. Post withdrawn. 4 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hankenhunter Posted August 13, 2020 #6 Share Posted August 13, 2020 (edited) 1 minute ago, Hankenhunter said: Thank you for the correction. Post withdrawn with my apologies. I should just quit while I'm behind. Edited August 13, 2020 by Hankenhunter 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaylemurph Posted August 13, 2020 #7 Share Posted August 13, 2020 How exactly is it an OOPART? It's not like it's millions of years old, so that there's no conceivable explanation, like if it were found in a lump of rock or something. It's not a historical mystery, it's a transportation issue. --Jaylemurph 5 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sir Wearer of Hats Posted August 13, 2020 #8 Share Posted August 13, 2020 3 hours ago, jaylemurph said: Roman coins turn up all over the place. Rather the same way humans do. Probably some link between those two things. —Jaylemurph 1 7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carnoferox Posted August 13, 2020 Author #9 Share Posted August 13, 2020 32 minutes ago, jaylemurph said: How exactly is it an OOPART? It's not like it's millions of years old, so that there's no conceivable explanation, like if it were found in a lump of rock or something. It's not a historical mystery, it's a transportation issue. --Jaylemurph No one would really expect to find a Roman coin in a Native American teepee circle in Montana, I'd say that's pretty "out of place". There are still plausible explanations for how it ended up there but it's unexpected nonetheless. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grim Reaper 6 Posted August 13, 2020 #10 Share Posted August 13, 2020 Just now, Carnoferox said: No one would really expect to find a Roman coin in a Native American teepee circle in Montana, I'd say that's pretty "out of place". There are still plausible explanations for how it ended up there but it's unexpected nonetheless. I agree it unexpected but there is little doubt that was brought over possible by the Spanish, the French, or even the British. But the real problem is there is no way to determine when the coin was brought to that location, it could have been planted there as a hoax. I think this is one of those situations where we will never know how it really occurred. But like you have said it is unexpected and something to think about. Thanks for sharing. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carnoferox Posted August 13, 2020 Author #11 Share Posted August 13, 2020 2 minutes ago, Manwon Lender said: I agree it unexpected but there is little doubt that was brought over possible by the Spanish, the French, or even the British. But the real problem is there is no way to determine when the coin was brought to that location, it could have been planted there as a hoax. I think this is one of those situations where we will never know how it really occurred. But like you have said it is unexpected and something to think about. Thanks for sharing. Yes, the coin could've been planted too. Unfortunately there's not more information available for this find. 2 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grim Reaper 6 Posted August 13, 2020 #12 Share Posted August 13, 2020 1 minute ago, Carnoferox said: Yes, the coin could've been planted too. Unfortunately there's not more information available for this find. I do also, it would be nice to find out how it really got there. But may be not knowing is kind of cool anyway, that way we can choose to believe what we want too, that's why I like mysteries like this. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jethrofloyd Posted August 13, 2020 #13 Share Posted August 13, 2020 On the Pawn Stars Roman Conis showed up several times: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Piney Posted August 13, 2020 #14 Share Posted August 13, 2020 3 hours ago, Carnoferox said: Yes, the coin could've been planted too. Unfortunately there's not more information available for this find. Got salt? Or a Spanish conquistador or priest. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post RoofGardener Posted August 13, 2020 Popular Post #15 Share Posted August 13, 2020 Curious how no Native American artifacts have been found in old Roman camps ? 4 2 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Piney Posted August 13, 2020 #16 Share Posted August 13, 2020 25 minutes ago, RoofGardener said: Curious how no Native American artifacts have been found in old Roman camps ? Or in Roman villas owned by wealthy traders. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HandsomeGorilla Posted August 13, 2020 #17 Share Posted August 13, 2020 (edited) What sort of metal is it? I'm assuming bronze. It could very well have been used as barter at a much later date. The date of second century doesn't necessarily mean it was put there then. Kind of a long shot I know. Edited August 13, 2020 by HandsomeGorilla Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RoofGardener Posted August 13, 2020 #18 Share Posted August 13, 2020 It would have been brought across by European settlers. That means that it could not have been in the USA before1492 (and more likely way after 1650). Personally, I suspect it was traded to the Native Americans around 1680. Probably on a Thursday, around 15:00 ? 1 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lightly Posted August 13, 2020 #19 Share Posted August 13, 2020 I'd guess lost and found.....or taken? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coyote Speaks Posted August 13, 2020 #20 Share Posted August 13, 2020 That's an odd little mystery. 1940 is a really late date to be finding that sort of thing, though. I suppose it's more of a "genuine" find since it wasn't being used for any sort of agenda but rather was just... discovered. I don't think it's unreasonable to assume it was used for trade or barter between Europeans and the NA Nation in question rather than proof of Roman Pre-Columbian contact with the US. Especially since the spot it was found was so thoroughly landlocked. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carnoferox Posted August 13, 2020 Author #21 Share Posted August 13, 2020 42 minutes ago, Coyote Speaks said: That's an odd little mystery. 1940 is a really late date to be finding that sort of thing, though. I suppose it's more of a "genuine" find since it wasn't being used for any sort of agenda but rather was just... discovered. I don't think it's unreasonable to assume it was used for trade or barter between Europeans and the NA Nation in question rather than proof of Roman Pre-Columbian contact with the US. Especially since the spot it was found was so thoroughly landlocked. That’s what makes me think it’s more likely a genuine find than a hoax. It was never used to garner publicity and has sat in obscurity in a small town museum for 80 years. I agree that it was probably traded or taken by Native Americans from Europeans. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kenemet Posted August 13, 2020 #22 Share Posted August 13, 2020 12 hours ago, Carnoferox said: No one would really expect to find a Roman coin in a Native American teepee circle in Montana, I'd say that's pretty "out of place". There are still plausible explanations for how it ended up there but it's unexpected nonetheless. It was from 1940. There are and were coin collectors long before that. I have some old Roman coins and if I dropped one, it would not be proof of ancient Romans in Texas. I also have an authentic Egyptian ushabti from the reign of Psamtik I. This doesn't prove Egyptians in Texas. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tatetopa Posted August 13, 2020 #23 Share Posted August 13, 2020 The most famous (or infamous) quote from Sheridan concerning Texas came just after the Civil War had ended. Asked his opinion of Texas, Sheridan replied, "If I owned Texas and all hell, I'd rent out Texas and live in hell." Maybe house hunting Romans and Egyptians made a brief visit and decided they were better off in their old place. 1 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carnoferox Posted August 13, 2020 Author #24 Share Posted August 13, 2020 15 minutes ago, Kenemet said: It was from 1940. There are and were coin collectors long before that. I have some old Roman coins and if I dropped one, it would not be proof of ancient Romans in Texas. I also have an authentic Egyptian ushabti from the reign of Psamtik I. This doesn't prove Egyptians in Texas. This area wasn’t well traveled back in the day (and still isn’t) so it’d be one hell of a coincidence if a coin collector just happened to drop it in a teepee circle there. A hoax would be even more likely than that explanation. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kenemet Posted August 13, 2020 #25 Share Posted August 13, 2020 Just now, Carnoferox said: This area wasn’t well traveled back in the day (and still isn’t) so it’d be one hell of a coincidence if a coin collector just happened to drop it in a teepee circle there. A hoax would be even more likely than that explanation. Hoax is possible, but so is someone offering a 'worthless" coin in trade as trade goods. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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