The Atheism Delusion

[Duke Wellington]

I will start by setting out my views.

1. Nothingness can never exist because in order for a thing to exist it needs to be made from something. Hence, nothingness is an impossible state. It has never existed and will never exist. The minimum that could ever exist would be one thing (which is the starting place of my views on Monism). Now if we think about it in order for one thing to exist then it needs somewhere to exist at, needs a point in time to exist at, as well of course as being made from something. That is the creation of space, time, and matter.

2. The Hebrew translation of the first line of the Bible does not say in the beginning God created everything. That is a miss-translation leaving out a carefully placed - used to indicate interdependence rather than cause and effect. So God didnt exist and then create the universe. God along with space, time, and matter, came into existence at the same time as they are interdependent on each other.

3. If we think about it things cannot partially exist, they either exist or they dont. If we divide something up repeatedly we eventually find building blocks or quantities which cannot be divided any further. Those are the fundamental quantities which exist or dont. There is no partial existence of them. This reveals a fourth structuring principle for that universe in that a thing is made out of a precise quantity. So God is one thing, one quantity. Quantification infuses space, time, and matter too, as things cannot partially exist. They either do or they dont.

4. So we have a God which through interdependence has its existence supported by a quantified space, time, and matter. Space consists of two components which both have an interdependence with God. That is the location that God exists at, and the only way to have a location is if its relative to everywhere else where God isn`t at. Time consists of four components. To have a God existing at a present moment in time, a present moment can only exist if there was a before and after. And continued existence of the one thing creates a flow of time in one direction. Something similar with matter too. To be made from something also requires the existence of matter the one thing is not made from.

5. Quantified and relative space, time, and matter, also need to tie up their own existence through interdependence. That requires populating the universe with matter across the present in time, backwards in time in a way which its existence is tied up nice and water tight with a Big Bang, and forwards in time to what is presumably a big crunch (if the physicists are right).

6. We are left with a universe which was created `in motion` rather than at the point of the Big Bang. Its existence is tied up going back in time to the point of the Big Bang, but it didnt start there. It started with God causing the universe to exist though interdependence. I`m going to put my head on the chopping block and say that occurred 5500 years ago, because that is the point at which civilization started. The universe in the past before then is building up to the point of civilization or to view it correctly the interdependence reduces the universe before that point until it eventually reaches the point it is all tied up water tight with the Big Bang.

7. The one thing has final form of interdependence needed to support its existence. It has to backwards create where the entity came from. That populates the universe backwards in time with life. Life which reduces as we look further into the past until we eventually reach the Big Bang. Hence evolution is not the progression of lower life to higher life. Its is the backwards creation through interdependence where the one thing as an entity is reduced down to a point it ties up nice and water tight at the point of the Big Bang.

So I reason God is a physical being on planet Earth that has through interdependence created the universe and all of us. He might not realise he is God but he is here somewhere. I say he, it might not even be a human or life as we know it. It could also be hidden from us if we consider extra dimensions too.

Edited August 14, 2020 by Cookie Monster

[eight bits]

17 minutes ago, Cookie Monster said:

I will start by setting out my views.

You neglected to finish.

Atheism is a delusion because ______?

[XenoFish]

[zep73]

1 hour ago, Cookie Monster said:

1. Nothingness can never exist because in order for a thing to exist it needs to be made from something. Hence, nothingness is an impossible state. It has never existed and will never exist.

Wrong. The universe is obeying mathematical laws, and in math "something from nothing" is no problem.

We start with nothing: 0
Then we subtract any value, lets say 100: 0 - 100 = -100
We now have two values: -100 and the value missing from it +100
If we then call the +100 energy, or matter, we can call the -100 gravity
We now have matter and gravity from nothing. The universe exists.

[Duke Wellington]

38 minutes ago, zep73 said:

Wrong. The universe is obeying mathematical laws, and in math "something from nothing" is no problem.

We start with nothing: 0
Then we subtract any value, lets say 100: 0 - 100 = -100
We now have two values: -100 and the value missing from it +100
If we then call the +100 energy, or matter, we can call the -100 gravity
We now have matter and gravity from nothing. The universe exists.

Maths isn`t reality, its a descriptive tool invented by man to use in an attempt to understand things.

[eight bits]

3 minutes ago, Cookie Monster said:

Maths isn`t reality, its a descriptive tool invented by man to use in an attempt to understand things.

I thought that was gods.

[zep73]

Just now, Cookie Monster said:

Maths isn`t reality, its a descriptive tool invented by man to use in an attempt to understand things.

And yet it happens all the time in nature. Take quantum fluctuation as an example. It is proven to be very real. Energy is "borrowed" temporarily, and returned.
Black holes is another example, where matter collapses into nothing, and the hole eventually evaporates, leaving only radiation, which fades away with time.

Math is both reality and a tool.

[Emma_Acid]

2 hours ago, Cookie Monster said:

1. Nothingness can never exist because in order for a thing to exist it needs to be made from something. Hence, nothingness is an impossible state. It has never existed and will never exist. The minimum that could ever exist would be one thing (which is the starting place of my views on Monism). Now if we think about it in order for one thing to exist then it needs somewhere to exist at, needs a point in time to exist at, as well of course as being made from something. That is the creation of space, time, and matter.

There is nothing in physics that says there used to be "nothingness". The idea that there was "nothing" and then the universe "exploded into being" is pop-science, not actual physics.

Quote

2. The Hebrew translation of the first line of the Bible does not say in the beginning God created everything. That is a miss-translation leaving out a carefully placed - used to indicate interdependence rather than cause and effect. So God didnt exist and then create the universe. God along with space, time, and matter, came into existence at the same time as they are interdependent on each other.

Sorry, what are they missing out? I'm pretty sure the bible says that God has existed for eternity.

Quote

3. If we think about it things cannot partially exist, they either exist or they dont. If we divide something up repeatedly we eventually find building blocks or quantities which cannot be divided any further. Those are the fundamental quantities which exist or dont. There is no partial existence of them. This reveals a fourth structuring principle for that universe in that a thing is made out of a precise quantity. So God is one thing, one quantity. Quantification infuses space, time, and matter too, as things cannot partially exist. They either do or they dont.

Yes, we can only divide so far until the notion of "size" is meaningless. But I have no idea how this then jumps to the concept of "God".

Quote

4. So we have a God which through interdependence has its existence supported by a quantified space, time, and matter. Space consists of two components which both have an interdependence with God. That is the location that God exists at, and the only way to have a location is if its relative to everywhere else where God isn`t at. Time consists of four components. To have a God existing at a present moment in time, a present moment can only exist if there was a before and after. And continued existence of the one thing creates a flow of time in one direction. Something similar with matter too. To be made from something also requires the existence of matter the one thing is not made from.

No. No we don't. Not sure why you're talking like you've proven something here.

Quote

5. Quantified and relative space, time, and matter, also need to tie up their own existence through interdependence. That requires populating the universe with matter across the present in time, backwards in time in a way which its existence is tied up nice and water tight with a Big Bang, and forwards in time to what is presumably a big crunch (if the physicists are right).

This reads like you kinda once skim-read a 20-year old children's text book on the big bang. It is embarrassingly basic and wildly out of date. 

Quote

6. We are left with a universe which was created `in motion` rather than at the point of the Big Bang. Its existence is tied up going back in time to the point of the Big Bang, but it didnt start there. It started with God causing the universe to exist though interdependence. I`m going to put my head on the chopping block and say that occurred 5500 years ago, because that is the point at which civilization started.

I don't know how you think you can pinpoint "civilisation" to such an accurate degree, but either way, this is unfalsifiable, and therefore can be dismissed as a serious argument. God could have created the universe 10 seconds ago and given us all false memories - there is no way of proving this hypothesis wrong.

Quote

The universe in the past before then is building up to the point of civilization or to view it correctly the interdependence reduces the universe before that point until it eventually reaches the point it is all tied up water tight with the Big Bang.

Quote

7. The one thing has final form of interdependence needed to support its existence. It has to backwards create where the entity came from. That populates the universe backwards in time with life. Life which reduces as we look further into the past until we eventually reach the Big Bang. Hence evolution is not the progression of lower life to higher life. Its is the backwards creation through interdependence where the one thing as an entity is reduced down to a point it ties up nice and water tight at the point of the Big Bang.

No one has said this about the big bang. No one has said this about evolution. This is not science. You're making stuff up.

Quote

So I reason God is a physical being on planet Earth that has through interdependence created the universe and all of us. He might not realise he is God but he is here somewhere. I say he, it might not even be a human or life as we know it. It could also be hidden from us if we consider extra dimensions too.

Do I even need to address this last bit. You're tying yourself in knots with frankly made up and misunderstood "science", and the conclusion you've come to is just gibberish. Sorry.

[Emma_Acid]

28 minutes ago, Cookie Monster said:

Maths isn`t reality, its a descriptive tool invented by man to use in an attempt to understand things.

Not true. The numbers we use have actual analogues in real life. If I have two apples and add another two apples to make four apples, that is real.

Likewise the numbers used to represent a wavefunction of a particle describe a real thing. You cannot just wave your hand and say its not real because it b*****s up your argument.

[+Noteverythingisaconspiracy]

@Cookie Monster you reasoning is based on flawed premises. How does a flawed argument disprove anything ?

Maybe you should change the thread title to something like: My view on creation. 

Edited August 14, 2020 by Noteverythingisaconspiracy

[XenoFish]

When it comes to CM, I don't know what I'm reading half the time. The other half I regret reading it.

[danydandan]

3 hours ago, Cookie Monster said:

2. The Hebrew translation of the first line of the Bible does not say in the beginning God created everything. That is a miss-translation leaving out a carefully placed - used to indicate interdependence rather than cause and effect. So God didnt exist and then create the universe. God along with space, time, and matter, came into existence at the same time as they are interdependent on each other.

Might you enlighten us further with some proof to support this statement?

[Will Due]

 

To a certain degree if not totally, everything we think is real in life, about life, is a delusion.

 

 

[Guyver]

4 hours ago, Cookie Monster said:

I will start by setting out my views.

2. The Hebrew translation of the first line of the Bible does not say in the beginning God created everything. That is a miss-translation leaving out a carefully placed - used to indicate interdependence rather than cause and effect. 

6. We are left with a universe which was created `in motion` rather than at the point of the Big Bang. Its existence is tied up going back in time to the point of the Big Bang, but it didnt start there. It started with God causing the universe to exist though interdependence. I`m going to put my head on the chopping block and say that occurred 5500 years ago, because that is the point at which civilization started. The universe in the past before then is building up to the point of civilization or to view it correctly the interdependence reduces the universe before that point until it eventually reaches the point it is all tied up water tight with the Big Bang.

I like that you made an argument and expressed your views, but I don’t think your argument is very sound for a number of reasons, and not just because you didn’t even attempt to explain how atheism is a delusion.

First point.....you have failed to demonstrate why the universe requires a god that is interdependent upon its existence.  To just make the claim that nothingness cannot logically exist and then insert god into the picture is insufficient.  It could be - as many Christians, and others believe - that God predates the universe and is its cause.  Therefore, God would be separate and distinct from the universe, or universes, and would be outside space and time, not confined to a location inside it.

Next - it doesn’t matter what Genesis 1:1 says in Hebrew because the Bible is not a reliable document and can’t even be shown to be true - but many arguments could be made that it is false.

Lastly, how in the world, and why would you assign 5500 years as the beginning of civilization?  Gobekli tepe is older than that which makes civilization older than that.  And people existed prior to 5500 years ago and predate modern style civilization, and we know this because we have discovered their remains.

On atheism.....I’m not sure why so many believers get hung up on it.  If there be a God, who is the maker of all...then atheism comes as no surprise.  When you get right down to it, everyone believes things differently, as the many world religions demonstrate...so it’s not like everyone has to believe the same way.  Atheism makes sense in ways that religion doesn’t.  Atheists rely on facts and evidence to arrive at their conclusions, but religions do not need facts or evidence.  People can believe without these things.  People can believe in religions simply because their parents did.

[XenoFish]

If you want to get technical the universe is "God", not in the anthropomorphic sense but it the most realistic sense. Considering the first stars died to create the elements that made us. We will die and return eventually to the cosmic void. All the elements within us might one day change into new elements that may create a completely different life  form. Or whatever happens. As for our conscious self. That'll be trapped within a finite span of time. So you know, whatever.

[Imaginarynumber1]

Rarely have i read something so utterly vapid, erroneous, and just plain dumb as this. Congrats, OP, for having the delusion of creating an engaging thread. 

Edited August 15, 2020 by Imaginarynumber1
nonya

[Mr Walker]

18 hours ago, Will do said:

 

To a certain degree if not totally, everything we think is real in life, about life, is a delusion.

 

 

I would say illusion.

But to a certain degree you are right  

Humans  often, if not always, interact with the constructs they create  about reality, not the reality itself.

  A lizard interacts with physical  reality.

Humans (apart from  the very young)  tend to interact with the internal reality constructed by their minds.

[Rlyeh]

On 8/14/2020 at 10:14 PM, Cookie Monster said:

So I reason God is a physical being on planet Earth that has through interdependence created the universe and all of us. He might not realise he is God but he is here somewhere. I say he, it might not even be a human or life as we know it. It could also be hidden from us if we consider extra dimensions too.

So he told people what to write in the Bible but he doesn't know he's God?

BTW none of your points really have much to do with atheism.

[danydandan]

3 hours ago, Rlyeh said:

So he told people what to write in the Bible but he doesn't know he's God?

BTW none of your points really have much to do with atheism.

Nor do they have anything grounded in reality.

[Autochthon1990]

Everybody knows the universe came into existence last thursday. So we're 48 hours in, and already I want my money back from the engineer of this hot mess. 

[Tatetopa]

On 8/14/2020 at 9:14 AM, Will do said:

To a certain degree if not totally, everything we think is real in life, about life, is a delusion.

Well I suppose that includes god too.

[XenoFish]

48 minutes ago, Autochthon1990 said:

Everybody knows the universe came into existence last thursday. So we're 48 hours in, and already I want my money back from the engineer of this hot mess. 

You must've gotten the beta version of Universe 665.9

[Will Due]

21 minutes ago, Tatetopa said:

Well I suppose that includes god too.

 

Yeah but a point of light in the dark to approach. 

 

 

[Tatetopa]

46 minutes ago, Will do said:

Yeah but a point of light in the dark to approach. 

A delusion of light in a delusion of darkness.

[Will Due]

4 hours ago, Tatetopa said:

A delusion of light in a delusion of darkness.

 

Which is to a certain degree, if not totally, a delusion.