Hanslune Posted October 21, 2020 Author #76 Share Posted October 21, 2020 (edited) 1 hour ago, Abramelin said: I'd like to know - considering all these finds from coastal Peru, like Caral and so on - why you call it pre-cvilization cultures. Standard archaeology precept: that a civilization has a number of predetermined 'abilities' one of which is a written language. This was well before the idea quipu (based on the evidence we have now) came into existence Edited to add - after I finished reading the thread and seeing that someone is a 'writing=civilization skeptic'. You can go here to see if you can get them to change the idea which was set up by 19th century white European males. I won't object! lol ICHTCHA 2020: Heritage Tourism and Cultural Heritage Assessment Conference, Lisbon (Oct 29-30, 2020) ICAH 2021: Ancient History Conference, Istanbul (Jan 28-29, 2021) ICAST 2021: Archaeological Science and Technology Conference, Rome (Mar 04-05, 2021) Edited October 21, 2020 by Hanslune 3 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abramelin Posted October 21, 2020 #77 Share Posted October 21, 2020 (edited) From the Caral wiki: ----- "Among the artefacts found at Caral are a knotted textile piece that the excavators have labelled a quipu. They write that the artefact is evidence that the quipu record keeping system, a method involving knots tied in rope that was brought to perfection by the Inca Empire, was older than any archaeologist had previously guessed. Evidence has emerged that the quipu may also have recorded logographic information in the same way writing does. Gary Urton has suggested that the quipus used a binary system which could record phonological or logographic data. " ----- So... we may very well have one of the most ancient civilizations here. And that according to the official definition of 'civilization'. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caral Edited October 21, 2020 by Abramelin 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abramelin Posted October 21, 2020 #78 Share Posted October 21, 2020 According to Montesinos, one of the Spanish chroniclers, the Incas did have a form of writing once, before it became prohibited: https://www.djmcadam.com/scheme-peruvian.html 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hanslune Posted October 22, 2020 Author #79 Share Posted October 22, 2020 8 hours ago, Abramelin said: From the Caral wiki: ----- "Among the artefacts found at Caral are a knotted textile piece that the excavators have labelled a quipu. They write that the artefact is evidence that the quipu record keeping system, a method involving knots tied in rope that was brought to perfection by the Inca Empire, was older than any archaeologist had previously guessed. Evidence has emerged that the quipu may also have recorded logographic information in the same way writing does. Gary Urton has suggested that the quipus used a binary system which could record phonological or logographic data. " ----- So... we may very well have one of the most ancient civilizations here. And that according to the official definition of 'civilization'. https://en.m.wikipediaorg/wiki/Caral Yes quipu's kept mathematical data but are not currently considered writing I scanned the current literature and its still being discussed with Urton being a voice for perhaps being a form of writing. it was like the clay token system used by the Mesopotamians as a three dimensional precursor to writing, it kept sums not words as far as we can tell. Could do a whole thread just on all that academic back and forth. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abramelin Posted October 22, 2020 #80 Share Posted October 22, 2020 Well, then for now we are left with what Montesinos said about there being a form of writing by the Incas: https://www.google.com/url?q=https://www.jstor.org/stable/pdf/659935.pdf&sa=U&ved=2ahUKEwjM5cGviMjsAhUl4YUKHW4PBCU4ChAWMAZ6BAgBEAE&usg=AOvVaw1Nb-O8RfHKnTx2qjJ4lsjf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Windowpane Posted October 22, 2020 #81 Share Posted October 22, 2020 1 hour ago, Abramelin said: Well, then for now we are left with what Montesinos said about there being a form of writing by the Incas: ... Memorias antiguas historiales y politicas del Perú, Montesinos, Fernando (17th cent.) Quote pg. 86: One answer was that the cause of the pestilence had been the letters, that no one used or resuscitated, because from their use came the greatest harm. With this, Tupac Cauri enacted a law, that, under pain of death, none should make use of quilcos, which were parchments and certain leaves of trees on which they wrote, nor should they use letters in any way. This oracle was so carefully observed that after this ... Peruvians never used letters. He also established in Pacarictampu a sort of University, where ... boys were taught how to count with quipus, incorporating various colours, which served as letters, which helped to enrich his little republic. (Very rough translation). See also Luxton's translation in Ibero-amerikanisches Archiv Neue Folge, Vol. 5, No. 4 (1979), pp. 315-341: pg. 318. Another mention of Tupac Cauri (Pachacuti VII) Difficult to find a date for this Pachacuti - d. 1471 ?? (See also https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pachacuti). 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abramelin Posted October 22, 2020 #82 Share Posted October 22, 2020 http://www.angelfire.com/ego/et_deo/incas.wps.htm According the list in the link, Tupac Cauri lived well before 1050 CE. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Windowpane Posted October 22, 2020 #83 Share Posted October 22, 2020 12 minutes ago, Abramelin said: http://www.angelfire.com/ego/et_deo/incas.wps.htm According the list in the link, Tupac Cauri lived well before 1050 CE. Tupac Cauri Pachacutec [sic] VII is no. 81 in that list. According to Montesinos 84, he was the fourth of that name, and called Pachacuti afterwards. His predecessor was Huayna Tupac (as in your list). Markham (n. 1) puts the dates at somewhere between AD 900-1100. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kenemet Posted October 22, 2020 #84 Share Posted October 22, 2020 19 hours ago, Abramelin said: From the Caral wiki: ----- "Among the artefacts found at Caral are a knotted textile piece that the excavators have labelled a quipu. They write that the artefact is evidence that the quipu record keeping system, a method involving knots tied in rope that was brought to perfection by the Inca Empire, was older than any archaeologist had previously guessed. Evidence has emerged that the quipu may also have recorded logographic information in the same way writing does. Gary Urton has suggested that the quipus used a binary system which could record phonological or logographic data. " ----- So... we may very well have one of the most ancient civilizations here. And that according to the official definition of 'civilization'. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caral Egypt's older than that (as a civilization with writing) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Windowpane Posted October 22, 2020 #85 Share Posted October 22, 2020 1 hour ago, Kenemet said: Egypt's older than that (as a civilization with writing) And so's Sumer. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abramelin Posted October 22, 2020 #86 Share Posted October 22, 2020 I said "one of the most ancient", not "the most ancient". 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Windowpane Posted October 23, 2020 #87 Share Posted October 23, 2020 16 hours ago, Windowpane said: Tupac Cauri Pachacutec [sic] VII is no. 81 in that list. According to Montesinos 84, he was the fourth of that name, and called Pachacuti afterwards. His predecessor was Huayna Tupac (as in your list). Markham (n. 1) puts the dates at somewhere between AD 900-1100. So might, say, the Wari civilisation/culture have used writing? Unfortunately, there doesn't appear to be anything in the archaeological record to support this idea: Quote ... they did not appear to use a form of written record. Instead, they used a tool called khipu, or "knot record." [D'Altroy, Terence N. (2015). The Incas (2 ed.). p. 150] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon the frog Posted October 23, 2020 #88 Share Posted October 23, 2020 (edited) On 8/16/2020 at 12:29 PM, cormac mac airt said: Culture/cultures sure but not sure that really qualifies as civilization. No evidence of domesticated livestock, no evidence of farming, no organized religion, no evidence of writing/record keeping, etc. cormac I would declare civilization when there's no organized religion ! It will probably take a while... Edited October 23, 2020 by Jon the frog 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hanslune Posted October 23, 2020 Author #89 Share Posted October 23, 2020 41 minutes ago, Jon the frog said: I would declare civilization when there's no organized religion ! It will probably take a while... That might not happen for quite some time. A percentage of humans appear to be 'born' with a yearning for spirituality, which explains the thousands of religions and cults that have come into existence. Once a religion loses secular power though, and the public/peer pressure for it also declines then other humans who are luke warm or uninterested in spirituality can raise their heads without fear of having them chopped off. Couldn't find a world-wide chart but places like Denmark, UK and France have been free of religious domination for much longer see religion melting away much more so than the US which still has strong minority who are very religious and combative. When I lived in the MIddle-East I found about 1/3 of the local Muslim were very pious, 1/3 were lackadaisical/ inconsistent and 1/3 tried to avoid the restrictions of their religions and those places it was illegal to not be pious. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abramelin Posted October 24, 2020 #90 Share Posted October 24, 2020 (edited) I remember something I read in Sarmiento de Gamboa's "The History of the Incas" : https://www.google.com/url?q=http://www.yorku.ca/inpar/sarmiento_markham.pdf&sa=U&ved=2ahUKEwiaj5P51c3sAhUQ36QKHXSYDecQFjAKegQIBxAB&usg=AOvVaw0pJuHCehtMmm6aZ2fze20_ "Besides this they had, and still have, special historians in these nations, an hereditary office descending from father to son. The collection of these annals is due to the great diligence of Pachacuti Inca Yupanqui, the ninth Inca, who sent out a general summons to all the old historians in all the provinces he had subjugated, and even to many others throughout those kingdoms. He had them in Cuzco for a long time, examining them concerning their antiquities, origin, and the most notable events in their history. These were painted on great boards, and deposited in the temple of the Sun, in a great hall. There such boards, adorned with gold, were kept as in our libraries, and learned persons were appointed, who were well versed in the art of understanding and declaring their contents. No one was allowed to enter where these boards were kept, except the Inca and the historians, without a special order of the Inca." One can wonder what these "boards" were. Edited October 24, 2020 by Abramelin 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abramelin Posted October 24, 2020 #91 Share Posted October 24, 2020 (edited) And then there are the socalled 'topacu', the abstract symbols you can see depicted on the clothes of the Incan emperors: http://tocapu.org/ Pictures: https://www.google.com/search?q=tocapu&client=firefox-b-m&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwixy-uU783sAhUBM-wKHeG_BrkQ_AUIBigB&biw=360&bih=627 A year or so ago I actually thought I had discovered something no one had ever considered to be a form of Incan script, a script used to decorate clothing of the royals. During the time I had no (easy) acces to the internet I even tried to 'decode' it. And failed, of course, heh. Just to find out a minute ago others were already busy exploring that idea. Edited October 24, 2020 by Abramelin 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abramelin Posted October 25, 2020 #92 Share Posted October 25, 2020 (edited) Here an interesting read on those 'tocapus' : https://www.apulaya.com/blog/on-the-andean-textiles-tracks Quote: IS IT A KIND OF TEXTILE “LITERACY”? Given that weaving icons implies conveying information, in order to rationalize and understand what he or she is weaving, a student who starts learning about the Andean textile world, needs to have, as a minimum, notions about cosmology and aspects of Andean astronomy, ecology, from the indigenous perspective, as well as about mythology, the religious and spiritual system, plant and animal reproduction and growth cycle, celestial bodies´ cycles and of those of the ritual calendar, since information of that kind are transmitted through iconography, in a polysemic way. Therefore, one must consider that this way of transmitting information, through textiles, is as ancient as human, in the Andes. " Edited October 25, 2020 by Abramelin 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abramelin Posted October 25, 2020 #93 Share Posted October 25, 2020 Here someone had an interesting idea. And no, it's not someone suggesting that quipu's were used for the Ogham script or something... Just in case someone reads too fast. Ok, here it is: https://omniglot.com/conscripts/quechuanogham.htm Now combine that with the multiple colors used in/for the quipu's, and you can 'write down' just about any complicated message/text. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abramelin Posted January 16, 2021 #94 Share Posted January 16, 2021 (edited) On 10/25/2020 at 10:05 AM, Abramelin said: Here an interesting read on those 'tocapus' : https://www.apulaya.com/blog/on-the-andean-textiles-tracks Quote: IS IT A KIND OF TEXTILE “LITERACY”? Given that weaving icons implies conveying information, in order to rationalize and understand what he or she is weaving, a student who starts learning about the Andean textile world, needs to have, as a minimum, notions about cosmology and aspects of Andean astronomy, ecology, from the indigenous perspective, as well as about mythology, the religious and spiritual system, plant and animal reproduction and growth cycle, celestial bodies´ cycles and of those of the ritual calendar, since information of that kind are transmitted through iconography, in a polysemic way. Therefore, one must consider that this way of transmitting information, through textiles, is as ancient as human, in the Andes. " Reviving a Visual Literacy for the Pictorial Writing of Tawantinsuyu: An Interpretation of the tocapu on the Dumbarton Oaks Tunic by Kyle Marini B.A., (Fine Arts and Spanish) Thiel College, 2018 Thesis Submitted in Partial Fulfillment of the Requirements for the Dietrich Honors Institute in the Department of Fine Arts Faculty of Art and Languages Kyle Marini THIEL COLLEGE Spring 2018 Thesis I assert that Andean textiles are clearly and intentionally embedded with language. While not a historically accepted claim, particularly due to its enigma, this interpretation is not even relatively new and according to some perspectives, it is elementary (Cummins 286-87; Arnold 20). Geometric motifs embroidered into cumbi cloth define Inka iconography. Called tocapu, they appear to be geometricized abstractions to the modern viewer (see figure 1). In actuality, they utilize conventions of space and elements of design unlike post-renaissance, western canon that would have been intelligible to the contemporaneous viewer within its discourse community (Niles 54). I contribute to this debate through my attempt to interpret individual tocapu in their surrounding context to decipher their original meanings. Operating without the historical assumption that the Inka did not have writing (Cieza de León [de Onís trans. 367]), and avoiding preoccupation with the quipu, I intend to prove that the tocapu are semiotic and house readable information. By cross-examining the representation of tocapu in ancient, colonial, and contemporary artifacts produced in Tawantinsuyu, or the “four corners,” as the Inka empire was referred in their national language of Quechua, my aim in this thesis is two-fold: to first compile evidence to explain how tocapu can be understood as a pictographic language and second, to reach an informed interpretation of what may be encoded in the All-over Tocapu Inka tunic from the Dumbarton-Oaks collection. Conclusion Many more motifs besides these six identified occur within this tunic. Much more work needs to be done to uncover their possible connections to surrounding tocapu and their contribution to its overall composition. However, analyzing these few significant tocapu opens the gateway for further research to expand this iconography. It may just require further examination of tocapu in contemporary artifacts whose living weavers can speak to their significance. This, paired with colonial sources to extract intelligibility of how they were understood in a time better harbored in the memory of the literate, can uncover what connotations they have in ancient fabrics. Through analyzing Silverman and Arnold’s findings alongside colonial objects, I have been able to draw my own informed conclusions regarding key concepts that the tocapu communicate, along with how they ought to be read any by whom. My contributions oppose the historic denial of textual practices in Tawantinsuyu and the Andes region. With my findings, I hope to encourage other researchers to direct their efforts toward recovering the semiotic role that the tocapu likely fulfill so that one day we can understand the entirety of this textile’s composition, which would provide a cipher needed to decode the “lost language" of the Inka. LINK Edited January 16, 2021 by Abramelin 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abramelin Posted January 16, 2021 #95 Share Posted January 16, 2021 (edited) What I think is interesting is, that we all consider 'writing' as something put on paper or parchment using pen and ink. Or chisseled into stone. Has anyone ever even considered that writing can be woven instead of written? Edited January 16, 2021 by Abramelin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abramelin Posted August 12, 2023 #96 Share Posted August 12, 2023 Indigenous women in Bolivian preserve ancestral knowledge by weaving La Paz, Aug 10 (EFE).- The ancestral knowledge of Bolivia’s Tacana people is transmitted not only through books, but through the elaborate fabrics woven by women to illustrate the relationship with nature and as a form of resistance to the deterioration of their environment. Weavers from the Indigenous Council of Tacana Women have come to the International Book Fair in La Paz to display their creative process. “We are demonstrating that it is not only what is written that counts, but we also demonstrate through our fabrics our values, our sentiments,” weaver Claribel Marupa tells EFE. Fabric designs often include the footprints of creatures that have practical or symbolic significance to the Tacana, such as jaguars, tortoises, scorpions, and even dogs. The scorpion represents the idea of “vigorous work” and “never surrendering,” while the presence of dogs, who accompany the Tacana in their daily tasks, reflects the importance of living in harmony with nature, Marupa says. Kasandra Lurisi, 19, who was taught to weave by her mother and grandmother, views the fabrics as a way of keeping “ancient memories” alive. https://www.laprensalatina.com/indigenous-women-in-bolivian-preserve-ancestral-knowledge-by-weaving/ 1 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abramelin Posted August 12, 2023 #97 Share Posted August 12, 2023 On 1/16/2021 at 10:43 PM, Abramelin said: Has anyone ever even considered that writing can be woven instead of written? 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atalante Posted August 12, 2023 #98 Share Posted August 12, 2023 6 hours ago, Abramelin said: Has anyone ever even considered that writing can be woven instead of written? from pages 18-19 in https://digitalcommons.pittstate.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1015&context=kansas_open_books The blue-and-white knotted fringes of Jewish ritual are even more convincing evidence, in Gandz’s opinion, of the use of mnemonic knots in prehistoric times. Numbers 15:38–39, for example, reads as follows: “Speak unto the children of Israel, and bid them that they make them fringes in the borders of their garments throughout their generations, and that they put upon the fringe of the borders a ribband of blue: And it shall be unto you for a fringe, that you may look upon it, and remember all the commandments of the Lord, and do them. . . .” “There can be no doubt,” says Gandz, “that the fringe, with the threads of blue and white wool twisted to a cord and having five double knots at different distances, of which the outspoken purpose is that the people may look upon them and remember the commandments, represents the vestigial remnant of the old Hebrew quipu, that served to record the laws, traditions, and historical events.” 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Puzzler Posted August 26, 2023 #99 Share Posted August 26, 2023 On 8/13/2023 at 8:58 AM, atalante said: from pages 18-19 in https://digitalcommons.pittstate.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1015&context=kansas_open_books The blue-and-white knotted fringes of Jewish ritual are even more convincing evidence, in Gandz’s opinion, of the use of mnemonic knots in prehistoric times. Numbers 15:38–39, for example, reads as follows: “Speak unto the children of Israel, and bid them that they make them fringes in the borders of their garments throughout their generations, and that they put upon the fringe of the borders a ribband of blue: And it shall be unto you for a fringe, that you may look upon it, and remember all the commandments of the Lord, and do them. . . .” “There can be no doubt,” says Gandz, “that the fringe, with the threads of blue and white wool twisted to a cord and having five double knots at different distances, of which the outspoken purpose is that the people may look upon them and remember the commandments, represents the vestigial remnant of the old Hebrew quipu, that served to record the laws, traditions, and historical events.” I understand knots have been used for communication in many ways, in many cultures. Good post. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Puzzler Posted August 26, 2023 #100 Share Posted August 26, 2023 (edited) On 10/23/2020 at 4:20 AM, Kenemet said: Egypt's older than that (as a civilization with writing) I’m glad you noted that last bit….did you read this same article? What constitutes a ‘civilisation’? You have to have all three constituents. Indigenous people of Australia are saying they are the oldest civilisation on Earth…like, maybe the oldest continuing culture…but civilisation…gimme a break. Civilisations have a set of laws that makes them a “civilisation”. https://www.livescience.com/what-is-oldest-civilization Always interesting to think about, Sumerian culture encompassed all three first, as far as we know, as 26th August 2023. Or was it Atlantis?…;) Edited August 26, 2023 by The Puzzler Add link Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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