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Cookie Monster

BBC (Banning British Culture)

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Cookie Monster

The BBC in response to Black Lives Matter is debating on banning the promotion of British Culture:

They are currently debating to remove Land of Hope and Glory and Rule Britannia from the Proms. The quoted reason is its too nationalistic and that there are slavery overtones relating to the past. Is this right or the crazy left going too far?

Too me its similar to the pulling down of statues in the US as part of a `ban everything that hurts peoples feelings` campaign.

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and then

They can't take final control until they have erased the existing history and culture.  The Left here in America has pulled all the stops and shown what and who they are and how far they are willing to go.  Now it's time for the rest of us to do the same.

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L.A.T.1961

No mention of banning Jerusalem, yet. :rolleyes:

 

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Cookie Monster
30 minutes ago, L.A.T.1961 said:

No mention of banning Jerusalem, yet. :rolleyes:

 

Well thats too religious for the BBC to possibly keep so maybe. With rule Britannia that is a nationalistic song that is inspiring, but if we cannot have a patriotic sing along then what is the world coming too:

I bet the SNP wont like that one! But its our history.

Edited by Cookie Monster

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Ozymandias

Seems to me it is not just British culture but the BBC itself that some commentators would like to get rid of.

I will always allow that people are entitled to express their patriotism in song - I'm the first to roar out my own national anthem whenever the occasion warrants it - but I always end up laughing when I see British people singing Rule Brittania, Land of Hope and Glory, or Jerusalem with such farcical gusto at Last Night of the Proms. Although the latter two songs are unparalleled as musical compositions, the majority of the singers, in my view, seem ignorant or impervious to the meaning of the lyrics they bellow out with such jingoistic fervour, and many of them compound their lack of understanding by cluelessly flying the Union Jack upside-down! 

For someone like me who knows British history and the true import of the lyrics of those songs, the Last Night of the Proms has the exact opposite effect than that probably intended by the organisers and participants, and merely descends at the finale into jingoistic silliness. As Richard Morrison, the music critic who has stirred this whole controversy says, '... what comes across to the worldwide TV audience is a stereotype of Little England that was already being lampooned when I first went to the Proms half a century ago.'  It's all a bit insensitive and mindless in these more enlightened times when we ought to know better. 

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L.A.T.1961
9 minutes ago, Cookie Monster said:

Well thats too religious for the BBC to possibly keep so maybe. With rule Britannia that is a nationalistic song that is inspiring, but if we cannot have a patriotic sing along then what is the world coming too:

I bet the SNP wont like that one! But its our history.

Not an EU flag in sight ;) marvelous. EU supporters must have all been born after 2012. :lol:

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Cookie Monster
26 minutes ago, Ozymandias said:

Seems to me it is not just British culture but the BBC itself that some commentators would like to get rid of.

I will always allow that people are entitled to express their patriotism in song - I'm the first to roar out my own national anthem whenever the occasion warrants it - but I always end up laughing when I see British people singing Rule Brittania, Land of Hope and Glory, or Jerusalem with such farcical gusto at Last Night of the Proms. Although the latter two songs are unparalleled as musical compositions, the majority of the singers, in my view, seem ignorant or impervious to the meaning of the lyrics they bellow out with such jingoistic fervour, and many of them compound their lack of understanding by cluelessly flying the Union Jack upside-down! 

For someone like me who knows British history and the true import of the lyrics of those songs, the Last Night of the Proms has the exact opposite effect than that probably intended by the organisers and participants, and merely descends at the finale into jingoistic silliness. As Richard Morrison, the music critic who has stirred this whole controversy says, '... what comes across to the worldwide TV audience is a stereotype of Little England that was already being lampooned when I first went to the Proms half a century ago.'  It's all a bit insensitive and mindless in these more enlightened times when we ought to know better. 

Fine by me, why pay for something I dont watch and often find myself disagreeing with? Of course the Proms is decades old and represents none of the values of the modern BBC. Hence the reason they are trying to ban our songs. We should ban them until they start adopting British values again.

I cannot see one upside down Union Jack. They all seem to be premade and attached to waving sticks. But yes, in some situations there are people who dont know they are holding their flag upside down. I think there are a lot of people who dont even know there is a right way up. I blame the BBC and education system for not teaching them lol.

Our songs arent for the world to hear, they are for our own personal sing along. If Irish people dont like it then why are the Proms shown on your tv?

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Cookie Monster

On the Jerusalem song did anybody else spot at the start the USA flag? If you look closely its got a Union Jack on too. A bit naughty, made me laugh lol.

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acute
4 hours ago, Cookie Monster said:

They are currently debating to remove Land of Hope and Glory and Rule Britannia from the Proms.

Glory and Rule [bolded by me] is what those songs are all about.

Extending the British Empire by force is hardly relevant these days, so I won't be sad to see them go.

 

(Kudos to Edward Elgar, though, for writing Pomp and Circumstance. :nw:)

 

Edited by acute
Gramma.

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Cookie Monster
15 minutes ago, acute said:

Glory and Rule [bolded by me] is what those songs are all about.

Extending the British Empire by force is hardly relevant these days, so I won't be sad to see them go.

(Kudos to Edward Elgar, though, for writing Pomp and Circumstance. :nw:)

The first one is about building Jerusalem in England, Gods country etc. 

The second one to us would be like you banning your national anthem. Its not our national anthem although there has been plenty of debate over the years about making it so. But its of similar standing to us. It doesnt mean we are going to go off enslaving people, its our most patriotic song.

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Setton
47 minutes ago, Cookie Monster said:

I cannot see one upside down Union Jack. 

There isn't a single Union Jack in any of these videos.

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Setton
9 minutes ago, Cookie Monster said:

The first one is about building Jerusalem in England, Gods country etc. 

And what does that mean?

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acute
26 minutes ago, Cookie Monster said:

The first one is about building Jerusalem in England, Gods country etc.

 

Land of Hope and Glory is about consolidation and expansion of the Empire.

 

Quote

"Wider still and wider"

The writing of the song is contemporaneous with the publication of Cecil Rhodes's will — in which he bequeathed his considerable wealth for the specific purpose of promoting "the extension of British rule throughout the world", and added a long detailed list of territories which Rhodes wanted brought under British rule and colonised by British people.

The reference to the extension of the British Empire's boundaries may reflect the Boer War, recently won at the time of writing, in which the United Kingdom gained further territory, endowed with considerable mineral wealth.

(Wikipedia)

 

Edited by acute
Tabulation.
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Essan

So does everyone who sings Jerusalem think the Jesus will return to England?  Or even really believe he wandered our green and pleasant land 2,000 years ago?   Of course not.  These are just fun songs to sing, that bring people from across the nation together.   End Last Night of the Proms and next we'll be dressing our women from head to foot in black and banning anyone from smiling in Sundays.   And as for the evil thing called Christmas!  Ban it!  Ban it!  Ban it!  

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acute
2 minutes ago, Essan said:

And as for the evil thing called Christmas!  Ban it!  Ban it!  Ban it!

I think you mean 'Winterval'. ;)

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Essan

As music writer and commentator Norman Lebrecht says "For heaven's sake, when the French President comes here we play La Marseillaise, which says, 'Let all alien blood be expunged from the soul'.  The day that we replace La Marseillaise with [French nursery rhyme] Frere Jacques when Monsieur Macron comes to Downing Street, we can consider replacing Rule, Britannia!"

Meanwhile, shall we ban  the singing of the imperialistic anti-English US National Anthem?  I think so!

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Setton
39 minutes ago, Essan said:

So does everyone who sings Jerusalem think the Jesus will return to England?  Or even really believe he wandered our green and pleasant land 2,000 years ago?

If they do, they don't understand the song.

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Setton
53 minutes ago, Setton said:

There isn't a single Union Jack in any of these videos.

@Cookie Monster A Jack is a naval flag to identify a ship.

Those are Union Flags. 

Have some national pride man!

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Ozymandias

What exactly was William Blake’s vision of England as described in his poem Jerusalem:

 And did those feet in ancient time / Walk upon England's mountains green?

And was the holy Lamb of God / On England's pleasant pastures seen?

And did the Countenance Divine / Shine forth upon our clouded hills?

And was Jerusalem builded here / Among these dark Satanic mills?

Bring me my bow of burning gold: / Bring me my arrows of desire:

Bring me my spear: O clouds unfold! / Bring me my chariot of fire.

I will not cease from mental fight, / Nor shall my sword sleep in my hand

Till we have built Jerusalem / In England's green and pleasant land.

 Typical of Blake, his imagery is difficult to interpret clearly and unambiguously. It is well known that Blake’s ‘gospel of liberty’ was profoundly subversive of all fields of human knowledge and endeavour; e.g. politics, religion, commerce, art, philosophy, etc. One commentator has said: ‘England, at a time when she was bent upon a policy hostile to the French Revolution, did not even know of [Blake’s] vehement and sweeping denial of all her cherished idols.’

 The son of an Irish emigrant to London, he openly supported the political ideals of Tom Paine and of the American and French Revolutionaries. Most of his writings were, or can be interpreted as, a condemnation of English culture, society and state. Like Milton, whom he admired, Blake was a supporter of republicanism and the French and American Revolutionaries and, in fact, it was Blake who warned Tom Paine of his impending arrest in 1792 for promoting seditious ideas and prompted his hurried escape to America.

 In April, 1803, Blake was charged with treason having thrown a drunken soldier off his premises while expressing the view that the King should be damned and all soldiers were nothing more than slaves of the monarch. This episode, and the ensuing charge of treason, badly scared him and he appears to have become a political revolutionary who hid his seditious leanings behind obscure poetic imagery. Another writer was more perceptive: he said: ‘the revolution did not come to England, the repression of Pitt did its work well, and Blake learned the joyless wisdom of public timidity. He secretly raged … but he accurately said of his own outward obedience: ‘I am hid’.’

In his poem, written shortly afterwards, Blake asks the question: ‘And was Jerusalem builded here / Among these dark Satanic mills?’ The answer is obviously 'No' for he goes on to call for his bow, his arrows, his spear and his chariot, and resolves:

I will not cease from mental fight, / Nor shall my sword sleep in my hand

Till we have built Jerusalem / In England's green and pleasant land.

 For what ideal (among others) did Blake declare: ‘nor shall my sword sleep in my hand’? It would have been openly seditious for him to have been any more explicit in his imagery. Enough is known about Blake’s political views to realize that whatever building was required to be done in England it would not include the continuation of the monarchy, the establishment, the church or industry. Is it not ironic that those who sing Jerusalem today may not be aware of the political significance of the words they chorus with gusto but seem to think that is a hymn to the actual creation of Jerusalem in England’s green and pleasant land. It is obvious they just go with the emotion that Parry so beautifully created in his music.

Edited by Ozymandias

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Ozymandias

On the issue of Union Jacks being flown upside-down, I wasn't claiming there were any to be seen in the videos posted to this thread, only that they have been flown upside-down in the Albert Hall during the singing of these songs. Google 'Last Night of the Proms' and you can clearly see this to be the case.

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Essan

To be fair, the union flag is easy to fly upside down - not as though it's obvious which way up it should be.  Complaining that people do so, from simple, understandable, ignorance,  is just puritian snowfairy nonsense.   

 

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Tatetopa
2 hours ago, Essan said:

End Last Night of the Proms and next we'll be dressing our women from head to foot in black and banning anyone from smiling in Sundays.   And as for the evil thing called Christmas!  Ban it!  Ban it!  Ban it!  

Back to the days of Cromwell?

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L.A.T.1961

BBC U turn. -

BBC Proms: Rule, Britannia! and Land Of Hope And Glory will feature on Last Night.

It had been reported the songs could be dropped over concerns of associations with colonialism and slavery. 

BBC Proms said it was announcing the concert's programme following recent speculation.

It said there would be new orchestral versions of Land Of Hope And Glory, and Rule, Britannia!, as well as a new arrangement of Jerusalem.  :tu:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-53895000

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Cookie Monster
13 minutes ago, L.A.T.1961 said:

BBC U turn. -

BBC Proms: Rule, Britannia! and Land Of Hope And Glory will feature on Last Night.

It had been reported the songs could be dropped over concerns of associations with colonialism and slavery. 

BBC Proms said it was announcing the concert's programme following recent speculation.

It said there would be new orchestral versions of Land Of Hope And Glory, and Rule, Britannia!, as well as a new arrangement of Jerusalem.  :tu:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-53895000

They knew there would be a backlash!

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stevewinn

 

Hit the play button and let it was over you. 

Edited by stevewinn
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